Fiat wheel bearings

[o midKnight]

peter

 

that is a clever tip - thanks

[Basil]

peter - 2007-04-03 11:13 PM

 

You just go through them with an angle grinder, no problem and then whack e'm off with a chisel. No need for new stub axles. I think you are being fed bovine excreta Rond.

 

Couldn't agree more, I've changed this type of bearing myself at home on a Peugeot and yes they do need a press but not to remove them only to replace the new ones without damage as they are incredibly tight, I'm fortunate in that my neighbour is a toolmaker and has all the required equipment that I don't.

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Based on which advice, Ron, I really think you should have a chat to Fiat's technical department. 

Any Fiat approved service centre should be able to repair Fiat's vehicles in accordance with Fiat's standard methods and timings.  That, I thought, is what all the Fiat trained mechanics are for, and is why you pay (generally) inflated prices at the approved locations. 

Any garage should also advise you whether they have the equipment to carry out the work efficiently themselves, or whether specialist equipment is needed that is only available elsewhere. 

You should then be given the option of taking your van elsewhere, or paying them to ferry the parts to and fro, if that becomes necessary.  You should not be stuck with a "lump it or leave it" situation, when the do-dos strip your vehicle, find they can't reassemble it properly, and then want to charge you for parts and travel you wouldn't have been liable for had they either a) carried out the work professionally and efficiently, or b) advised you they couldn't undertake the job, and told you who could.

They do have a "duty of care" in undertaking work, and can't just do as they please at someone else's expense.

[o midKnight]

Do we have a name for the garage ref £1,200.00?

[Guest peter]

How does Arfur Daley sound, or bodgit & Leggitt..... (lol)

[ericlesley]

I have had the wheel bearings replaced and have been in touch with Fiat UK regarding the price and the early failure of these parts, they have opened an enquiry for me and I have forwarded to them the FSH and the bills for parts and labour. I did get all the parts back from the Fiat garage they were complete i.e the hub, bearing and a large casting which they tell is the "pillar" I phoned the service manager and enquired why it had been necessary to replace all these parts as they were listed individually on the bill so surely only the bearings needed replacing. He replied that yes, they did come as separate pieces but once assembled were impossible to separate. I'm afraid at this point I got extremely angry as in my opinion what man puts together he can certainly separate. He suggested that I am ignorant about vehicle maintenance so I told him that I also have a 62 year old vintage car that I maintain including changing wheel bearings! I had also crawled under my van to see how difficult it is to remove these parts and it amounts to less than 16 bolts each side and with the correct torque wrench and their workshop facilties I reckon I could do it in about 3 hours including tea breaks!

AS to overloading the van, this is a panel van conversion professionally built in Italy so it has not had a huge coach built body put on and is well within it's weight limits. I intend getting the AA involved and will post their findings and the results of Fiats enquiry. Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming.

Eric

[ericlesley]

The name of the garage that charges £1200 to change wheel bearings is "AMC" of Chelmsford Essex. They are an acredited Fiat and Alfa dealers with full workshop facilities

eric

[Brian Kirby]

Eric

From what you say they probably don't have the correct equipment, and shouldn't have taken on the job.

Don't know what is the presise significance of the Fiat enquiry, but I'd definately use it!  After Easter, it might be instructive to ask them if they expect the hub/bearing/pillar assembly to be replaced as a unit when replacing the bearing.  Methinks the answer will be no!  Ask them for the standard timing for replacing a front wheel bearing, then ask them if two bearings are expected to take twice as long.  Some of the prep time for the first should enable the second to be done more quickly.

I doubt Fiat will give much more assistance than just the times.  You may need to trot along to your Trading Standards office to see where you stand, but I think if you take the Fiat timing for the job and multiply by the hourly rate your garage charged, then add the cost of a couple of bearings and a few sundries, the garage owes you the balance from what they charged.

You may have to issue a summons through the Small Claims Court to get it, but don't let that put you off.  The procedure is fairly straightforward.  However, if you do get to that stage, do add into your claim against the garage all of your out of pocked costs, including the cost of issuing the summons.

Hope this helps.

[Guest peter]

Eric........To be honest, I don't think you have a case. They quoted you £1200 and you agreed to pay it. That's it, unfortunately. I can't believe you went ahead with this after all that has been said on here. Why did you not get an itemised quote before allowing them to start the job?. You have been well and truly done. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[ericlesley]

Peter,

Wisdom after the event is a wondrous thing, especially without full knowlege of the facts. I had been quoted similar prices by other workshops and had also been told that I really needed to go to a Fiat main workshop which I did. I had got to the point of being in a cleft stick as the van was rapidly becoming undriveable and had to be sorted as we are due to go away for a month in it. I could not keep driving it around different workshops in the hope that someone could offer me a better price because they all told me over the phone to bring it in for them to examine it and every time it was driven it got nearer to a complete breakdown. The time scale between the first signs of wheel bearing failure was only a couple of weeks and less than 200 miles.

Eric

[Mike Chapman]

Brian Kirby - 2007-04-04 5:29 PM

Any Fiat approved service centre should be able to repair Fiat's vehicles in accordance with Fiat's standard methods and timings. That, I thought, is what all the Fiat trained mechanics are for, and is why you pay (generally) inflated prices at the approved locations.

Hello Brian,Unfortunately not all Service Centres or even Main Dealers have all the expertise, equipment and trained staff to carry out all maintenance tasks. I know for a fact that many Fiat Main Agents do not carry out any repair work to Automatic Gearboxes the vehicles being sent to specialised companies. However replacing wheel bearings is a bread and butter job to most agents. I suppose it depends if the Agent is a van centre or not and has all the necessary equipment (ie. Press).Adding some additional information to this thread. I remember reading a while ago about wheel bearing failure on Sevel vans and the finding that a number were found not to have been packed with sufficient high melting point grease. Have searched for this information on the Forums without success but this may have been in one of the Commercial Fleet magazines. It may be worth doing a search or posting an enquiry on the Fiat Forum.Regards,Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

ericlesley - 2007-04-07 8:23 AM Peter, Wisdom after the event is a wondrous thing, especially without full knowlege of the facts. I had been quoted similar prices by other workshops and had also been told that I really needed to go to a Fiat main workshop which I did. I had got to the point of being in a cleft stick as the van was rapidly becoming undriveable and had to be sorted as we are due to go away for a month in it. I could not keep driving it around different workshops in the hope that someone could offer me a better price because they all told me over the phone to bring it in for them to examine it and every time it was driven it got nearer to a complete breakdown. The time scale between the first signs of wheel bearing failure was only a couple of weeks and less than 200 miles. Eric

Eric

Notwithstanding Peter's rather dismissive comments I think you should take this further.  You may have been given a quote for the job, but it seems you were relying upon the expertise of the garage to carry out only the work that needed doing, namely the replacement of two bearings, in a reasonably economical manner. 

It appears to me that the garage also replaced several other parts that were not in need of replacement, but did not advise you properly that they were to do this, for their own reasons, before they took on the job. 

It seems to me this can only have been because either they lacked the proper equipment or skills to do the job, because it was quicker in workshop time and thus more convenient to them (whatever the cost to you), because they could avoid having to warrant their own work in replacing the bearing, or to avoid the risk that they might make a mess of replacing the actual bearing, and so have to pay for the additional parts themselves!

Whatever may have been their motive, they should have made clear to you that they intended replacing a number of unnecessary parts beforehand, that this would not be the most cost effective means of repair, and given you the option of seeking a cheaper job elsewhere.  That is where I think they have neglected their "duty of care" to their customer.

I take Mike's point that it does not follow all garages are equipped to tackle all tasks, and that from time to time they all turn to specialists.  However, my experience has been to have been informed of this by the garage, as the reason for increased cost.  It seems precisely this advice that you did not receive.

[ericlesley]

Thanks Brian, your comments make sense and reinforce my intentions to try and get a satisfactory outcome.

Eric

[colin]

I see that 'Mrs Sea' has had wheel bearing go at 40'000miles as stated on her RenaultvFiat thread, how many more out there? don't be afraid to post.

[Mrs Sea]

colin - 2007-04-09 7:29 PM

 

I see that 'Mrs Sea' has had wheel bearing go at 40'000miles as stated on her RenaultvFiat thread, how many more out there? don't be afraid to post.

 

Thanks Colin, you beat me to it. Our near side front bearings went at 40,000. The mechanic had a real problem getting them off and they ended up in fragments they were so corroded and seized. He had to use major'welly' to get it shifted/removed. Haven't got the bill yet but it took him all day and he was cursing as he couldn't get the car out that was parked in front of our van for the customer who came for it!! Not helped by the fact that the replacement part that came from the supplier was the wrong one and he had to wait for another supplier to deliver it same day - I know who'll be paying up for that too. It seems ordering parts for motorhomes is more complicated than for the commercial base, something to do with the delay in registering the vehicle whilst the motorhome bit is added.

 

It seems Fiat wheel bearings needing replaced is a lot more common than we thought.

[Guest peter]

Brian Kirby - 2007-04-07 3:23 PMQUOTE]>

Notwithstanding Peter's rather dismissive comments

Brian........Why do you have to make derogatory remarks about anyone who posts an opinion that differs from your own. No wonder Frank used to get a bit uptight. Please have the good manners to accept views other than your own can be valid. >:-)

[g4oip]

Like many other interested readers of bearing problems I do wonder if it is associated with the other problem of tyre pressures which seem v. high compared to fully loaded commercial vans of the same caperbility.Very hard tyres transmit unusually high shock to bearings and this may be a contributing factor in early failure. My 'car' is a 35s13 Iveco Daily and can have 1.7 tonnes loaded into the back which you adjust the tyre pressures accordingly but surprisingly the front pressures stay the same at 50psi.Looking round the web there is a constant problem from the vehicle makers and the vehicle modifiers.There should be a cushioning of road imperfections by the tyres and if it feels that running over a match causes shock waves to pass through to you then probably your tyres are too hard. My own supplier has rubbed out the original pressures of 80psi and put 60psi in its place?? Suggests there is something wrong somewhere. Quickest way I know to destroy a bearing is to smack it with a sledge hammer but this could be a near approximation if you run into potholes with hard tyres. Food for thought perhaps.

[Terrytraveller]

I have just arrived back from the garage which services my MH and asked if he knew about the early failure of Sevel based MH front wheel bearings. He said he has had several in his garage for replacing either one or both bearings, predominately the near side has needed replacement in recent times.

 

On examining the ball race tracks, every one has had a small indentation in the ball race at one place in the track of the faulty bearings. His theory suggests two factors causing the early demise of the bearings, the MH before and after conversion, is standing for some considerable time, the weight is borne by the bearing in one place without rotation and this will impact on the bearing life, also the bearing grease will solidify during this time and on rotation will not spread evenly around the bearing.

 

He will undertake the replacement of the bearings, the all up price will be around £350 per side. He always takes the unit off of the MH and has a local Engineering garage to press out the old bearings and refit the new, he further states the reason the bearings are difficult to remove, is because the manufacturer assembles them dry, he always assembles the new bearings using copper ease.

 

A full wheels off service at this garage costs £169, includes all filters and synthetic engine oil, takes only 2 hours, at times two or three people will be working on the MH. I can recommend this garage, service is by appointment only, the web site is http://www.dmsautocentre.co.uk/

 

Regarding G4OIP comment on tyre pressures, I have Michelin XC camping 215/70 R15 and the sticker on the door indicates 72 psi, for a 3300 kg chassis. I loaded the MH for touring, made a note of the axle loadings and emailed Michelin, they came back with the recommendation of 45 psi front and 55 psi rear. I have run at these pressures for 22000 miles now, tyres are only half worn and wearing evenly, with more tread on the rear as you might expect..

 

Regards Terry

 

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2007-04-09 9:40 PM

Brian Kirby - 2007-04-07 3:23 PM QUOTE]>

Notwithstanding Peter's rather dismissive comments

Brian........Why do you have to make derogatory remarks about anyone who posts an opinion that differs from your own. No wonder Frank used to get a bit uptight. Please have the good manners to accept views other than your own can be valid. >:-)

Qui, moi? :-)

[colin]

Not convinced of the standing in one place theory as this is common place on lots of vehicles, but I may be wrong. Another cause could be sticking calipers, this can cause the bearings to overheat.

[Guest peter]

colin - 2007-04-11 11:03 PM

 

Not convinced of the standing in one place theory as this is common place on lots of vehicles, but I may be wrong. Another cause could be sticking calipers, this can cause the bearings to overheat.

I agree totally. I have a classic car and have to free off brakes every year, as they stick like crazy on the rust coated disks and would get really hot if I drove it like that and would undoubtady have melted the grease in the bearing pretty quickly. Ignore this at your cost.

[Brian Kirby]

Since this has raised a fair bit of interest on here, I wonder if it would be worth one of the affected parties writing to George Collings at MMM Interchange, to see if he can winkle out of Fiat's technical department exactly what procedure they lay down for replacing these bearings? 

Notwithstanding, I have to say that the "standing in the same place" argument appears to ignore how load is transmitted across abearing, in that all of the balls/rollers, and not just one of them, are loaded.  The observed pitting of the race in one place, assuming adequate lubrication, rather suggests to me a localised break up of the case hardening.  Inadequate lubrication in three year old sealed for life bearings?  Well, if there was, these bearings were defectively assembled, so back to the duff batch theory.

Be that as it may, the actual reasons for the failures will, presumably, vary from case to case - unless there is a duff batch somewhere - and so can be discounted as a bit too speculative to warrant much consideration. 

However, the wide apparent variance in practice in replacing these bearings, ranging from just extracting and replacing the actual bearing itself, to replacing the whole hub, bearing, and post sub-assembly, with its resulting wide variation in cost, does seem to suggest either there is confusion among the various garages about what they should be doing, that the "wrong" garages are being given the work, or that some of the garages are taking liberties.

Just to help complete the picture, it might also be interesting to know if any of the repairs reported upon above were actually undertaken by Fiat approved service centres.

[ROND]

Brian Kirby - 2007-04-12 11:15 AM

 

Just to help complete the picture, it might also be interesting to know if any of the repairs reported upon above were actually undertaken by Fiat approved service centres.

 

Brian, all my servicing since new has been carried out by a Fiat main dealer and the bearing job was carried out by the same Fiat main dealer. The workshop manager told me he has done about 6 motorhomes now, all front bearings with 2 of them impossible to get off. He also said there doesnt seem to be a problem when it is the normal Ducato van so he thinks it is weight related.

[icelander]

Grease running out when hubs get hot? Just out of interest have the owners who have had bearing problems done a lot of mountain work and/or are they usually late brakers? I think I will stick to nice flat Salisbury plain and continue to use the gears and looking ahead when slowing down.

[ROND]

icelander - 2007-04-12 9:17 PM

 

Grease running out when hubs get hot? Just out of interest have the owners who have had bearing problems done a lot of mountain work and/or are they usually late brakers? I think I will stick to nice flat Salisbury plain and continue to use the gears and looking ahead when slowing down.

 

No mountain work and very light on the brakes being an ex lorry driver taught to use the gearbox to slow down and not rely on the brakes