Fiat wheel bearings

[colin]

ROND - 2007-04-12 9:22 PM

 

icelander - 2007-04-12 9:17 PM

 

Grease running out when hubs get hot? Just out of interest have the owners who have had bearing problems done a lot of mountain work and/or are they usually late brakers? I think I will stick to nice flat Salisbury plain and continue to use the gears and looking ahead when slowing down.

 

No mountain work and very light on the brakes being an ex lorry driver taught to use the gearbox to slow down and not rely on the brakes

 

Icelander

Several years back I seem to recall a spate of problems with Fiat calipers siezing up, IIRC Fiat blamed long 'rest' periods of motorhomes causing calipers to sieze and then the hub would overheat.

Rond

I too tend use this achaic form of slowing down as a follow on of having driven so many vehicles with drum brakes , but as was explained to me a couple of years ago, on a modern vehicle with vented disc's it is a complete waste of time, as all you do is put extra load through an expensive drive train when there is a 'cheap' set of brakepads that does the job much better.

 

[Guest peter]

Colin....I agree about not using the gearbox to slow down. Brake pads are way cheaper than gearboxes.

Thers's beeen loads of debate on this bearing thread and people will no doubt read, inwardly digest and make up their own minds.

Firstly you have to look at the law of probability on a lowish mileage vehicle, especially as regards 2 bearings going together, bad batch or not. As the loading on them is never going to be equal unless it's always driven along a totally straight and flat road (impossible).

So that leaves an external cause such as binding brakes, loose wheel nuts, tracking way out, high speed in very hot climate, ad infinitum.

In summary anything that produces heat and premature wear.

[sshortcircuit]

Is there a specific age of vehicle concerned that could have problems?

 

I would have thought that if it was a problem, then the design would have been changed and newer models may not have the problem?

 

Previous posts have all mentioned corrective action. Is there any action, greasing bearings, that can prevent bearing failure?

[Guest peter]

There is no corrective action, as once it's gone thats it. But preventive action would involve making sure brakes are not binding and not leaving it parked in a deep puddle for long periods. All common sense stuff like that. You cannot grease them as they are sealed when manufactured (front wheel drive). But you can make sure that the dust cover on the hub nut has grease in it to stop water (condensation) building up inside.

[sshortcircuit]

Peter

 

Corrective means it is faulty and requires to be replaced.

 

Preventative requires action in advance to prevent a fault occuring and it would appear that as this bearing is sealed no action can be taken. However, if the bearing has been upgraded, is it possible to change it before it collapses.

 

Again I would ask if it is any specific year of model or if it is just ongoing with all models

 

[Dave Newell]

At the risk of upsetting the apple cart here I have to say we might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Going back over the three pages of this thread there are 6 definite, possibly 7 reports of front wheel bearing failure and a further possible dozen or so by hearsay from garage proprietors. Does this really mean there is a problem with Fiat front wheel bearings? Or could it be a normal failure rate? There were approximately 10,000 new motorhomes registered in this country last year, of that 10,000 let's say 50% were ducatos/boxers/relays. So we, so far, have reports of less than 20 failures out of 5000 vehicles of this type. i'm not convinced that this is anything other than a normal failure rate but its been highlighted by a few owners who talk to each other on here.

 

Over the last thirty years that I've been involved with the motor industry I've changed hundreds of wheel bearings on everything from pushbikes up to 7.5 Tonne trucks and I've never had the facilities of a press. A large hammer and the apropriate drift always got the job done, it is however a lot easier and less strenuous to use a press.

 

D.

[sshortcircuit]

I can only agree with what you have said Dave.

 

I have changed bearings in the past and as you say a little bit of properly applied brute force generally does the job.

 

You are correct, is there a problem or is it just hearsay. How can we establish the facts?

[icelander]

Thanks for the advice concerning not using the gears to slow down. Not that I have ever changed into first at 50 or anything like that but more of a throttle off and let gravity take its course. Usually much to the annoyance of those behind. Was it you?

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2007-04-12 9:46 PM 

icelander - 2007-04-12 9:17 PM Grease running out when hubs get hot? Just out of interest have the owners who have had bearing problems done a lot of mountain work and/or are they usually late brakers? I think I will stick to nice flat Salisbury plain and continue to use the gears and looking ahead when slowing down.

 Icelander .............................ROND I too tend use this achaic form of slowing down as a follow on of having driven so many vehicles with drum brakes , but as was explained to me a couple of years ago, on a modern vehicle with vented disc's it is a complete waste of time, as all you do is put extra load through an expensive drive train when there is a 'cheap' set of brakepads that does the job much better.

Until you come to some real hills, that is!  Keep your welly on the anchors in the Alps and you'll get some very funny smells out of your brakes: you can even get the discs glowing after a few downhill hairpins!  That, I suspect, is a bit over the top of the temperature range of these bearings.  "Motorbremsen", "Utilisez le frein moteur", "Use engine braking" etc.  Must have some validity, surely?

Overload is an interesting possibility, though.  A normal van spends most of its time running fairly light.  Motorhomes, even when unladen, are heavier than most laden vans.  Anyone know if the affected vans tended to be heavy on the front end?  Might be a clue.

[Brian Kirby]

Dave Newell - 2007-04-13 8:55 AM At the risk of upsetting the apple cart here I have to say we might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Going back over the three pages of this thread there are 6 definite, possibly 7 reports of front wheel bearing failure and a further possible dozen or so by hearsay from garage proprietors. Does this really mean there is a problem with Fiat front wheel bearings? Or could it be a normal failure rate? There were approximately 10,000 new motorhomes registered in this country last year, of that 10,000 let's say 50% were ducatos/boxers/relays. So we, so far, have reports of less than 20 failures out of 5000 vehicles of this type. i'm not convinced that this is anything other than a normal failure rate but its been highlighted by a few owners who talk to each other on here. Over the last thirty years that I've been involved with the motor industry I've changed hundreds of wheel bearings on everything from pushbikes up to 7.5 Tonne trucks and I've never had the facilities of a press. A large hammer and the apropriate drift always got the job done, it is however a lot easier and less strenuous to use a press. D.

True Dave, but how many of the vehicles you've actually owned have needed wheel bearings replacing?  Can you estimate how long wheel bearings usually last?  My own experience is the bearing failure is rare and that the original bearings usually go to scrap with the vehicle. 

What caught my attention in this case was that the three vans were all around 3 years old, and all around 30K miles.

[Dave Newell]

I understand your point Brian but to paraphrase slightly, "three swallows do not make a summer" The fact that there are three three year old vans with similar mileages that have suffered bearing failure is not necessarily anything more than co-incidence. If these numbers were in their hundreds I might think differently but not at less than twenty. I have had a few wheel bearing failures over my half million mile driving life, one on my old Austin 1800S, I'd gone out to visit someone about 30 miles away and everything was fine. On the return journey I started to notice a rumbling from thefront and recognised it as a wheel bearing, I thought that as it had only just started I could make it home before it gave up. I was wrong! Within 10 miles the bearing had completely collapsed and I had to have the vehicle recovered. Had the bearing been showing signs of failure earlier? I doubt it as being a mechanic I'm attuned to such noises and can usually detect them before other drivers.

 

I had one fail on a 7.5 Tonne truck that was just about the opposite. I'd been to Kent and on the return journey I heard the familiar rumbling so pulled into the next services to inspect it. Minimal play evident so I decided to take it easy and see how far I could get while listening closely for the noise to get worse. It didn't and the truck happilly made its way home over the next 150 miles and it was no worse when I got back.

 

I served my apprenticeship in a BL garage in the late seventies and we had a recall on the Allegro for the rear wheel bearing washer. The original washer was smaller in diameter than the inner race of the bearing and too many people were adjusting all the play out of the wheel bearings. When hot the wheel bearing would expand slightly bind up and disintegrate at which point the wheel and outer bearing would part company with the car because that washer was too small. The recall was to replace the washers with larger diameter ones that wouldn't let the wheel come off.

 

If we can find a couple of hundred cases of premature front wheel bearing failure then I might agree that there could be a design or batch fault but not at less than twenty cases.

 

D.

[Guest starspirit]

Half day again Dave?

 

Ah but it's only three that we know about?

 

How many more don't we know about?

 

Wheel bearing failure was fairly common in the 60s and 70s when we looked upon wheel bearings in the same light as exhausts and track rod ends etc - parts with a limited life which we expect to fail and replace as 'normal' - every few years.

 

Since then reliability and quality control have thankfully improved considerably and none of these parts are now regarded as 'bound to fail'.

 

I can't remember the last time I had a wheel bearing fail (daft thing to say 24 hours before a 3500 mile drive - glad it's a Toyota!) although to be fair I do very rarely hear of one on a random selection of vehicles.

 

If the bearing is of sufficient quality for the job and lubricated, sealed and torqued properly it should in theory last the life of the vehicle - and even more so in a low mileage application.

[bob b]

I replaced the front wheel bearings on a Citroen Xantia that I owned a couple of months ago. The worn bearing races collapsed as usual, leaving the inner collar on the shaft, but I carefully used an angle grinder to cut partly through the collar and then clouted the cut with a hammer and cold chisel. I bought a brand new 12 ton bearing press for £107.00 incl VAT and pressed in the new bearings quickly and cleanly.

Should the bearings go on my Fiat motorhome, I'll do myself and apparently save hundreds of pounds !!

 

Although one doesn't use a bearing press often I grant you, I've also used the press since for straightening steel items and also fitted wheels to the base so I can easily move it around the garage out of the way

[Guest peter]

sshortcircuit - 2007-04-13 7:36 AM

 

Peter

 

Corrective means it is faulty and requires to be replaced.

 

Preventative requires action in advance to prevent a fault occuring and it would appear that as this bearing is sealed no action can be taken. However, if the bearing has been upgraded, is it possible to change it before it collapses.

 

Again I would ask if it is any specific year of model or if it is just ongoing with all models

Sorry.......I didn't know that.

[Guest starspirit]

Is it only Fiat - what about Peugeot or Citroen as they are all supposedly made on the same line it sounds suspiciously like maybe a bad batch of bearings / fitters / grease / seals or summat else that is a common factor?

[Dave Newell]

I repeat for the hard of hearing, 20 failures reported out of at least 5000 vans does not in any way signify a common design fault or bad batch of bearings. If there were hundreds being reported I might think differently but until then this just is not a problem!

 

D.

[Basil]

Whilst it is unusual to hear of bearing failures they do occur and I would consider it to be a normal, for what ever reason, thing.

We have become acustomed to very little going wrong on modern vehicles so anything can seem out of the ordinary but it doesn't mean there is a problem.

I have had only one wheel bearing failure on a car in around 40 years of driving until a year or so ago when my wifes car had two go on the front one after the other with an approximately 3 months gap between. Now interestingly it was the same side both times, offside! So did the first one go premeturely and was the second one faulty or did I damage it replacing it? I don't know the answer to that but the remaining origional and the replaced new one are still going fine a year or more later with yet another 12000 miles on the clock.

I believe it is part of the 'Blame' culture we are all subjected to nowdays that makes us complain and find fault whereas in the past we would have just got on and done it and accepted it as part of vehicle ownwership.

 

Bas

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Basil,

 

Taking a bit of a liberty here but you may just, due to a spelling mistake, have invented a new word, modified by one letter OWNWORSHIP. It seems to encapsulate perfectly the way we all sometimes think of our treasured possessions.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Guest starspirit]

Dave Newell - 2007-04-14 7:02 AM

 

I repeat for the hard of hearing, 20 failures reported out of at least 5000 vans does not in any way signify a common design fault or bad batch of bearings. If there were hundreds being reported I might think differently but until then this just is not a problem!

 

D.

 

 

No need to take that attitude Dave, as we can all hear and read perfectly well thank you.

Notwithstanding your greater mechanical knowledge and experience than my own, I would respectfully disagree with your conclusion that 20 out of 5000 is a not indicative of a problem?

That is 20 that are known - plus how many unknown - an unknown number maybe - and Fiat aren't going to tell us are they?

Even if 20 is the total extent of the issue, at 0.4% I would call that significant on a serious safety related and crucial component like a front wheel bearing?

Even more so if it were to fail or sieze on a fully laden van on the motorway at 80mph? Likely - probably not - possible - certainly?

My understanding, but I'm not exactly sure of the detail, is that some manufacturers will instigate a recall for failure rates of about this level?

Please let's not descend into a slanging match.

[Brian Kirby]

I think this is going a bit off the rails.  There have been several posts recording, or referring to, front wheel bearing failures.  These have all failed at less than 40K miles which, by common consent, is premature. 

The possible causes are speculative, but could include overload, vehicle storage conditions, overheating brakes, bad bearings or bad assembly.  No one has had the bearings analysed to ascertain actual cause.  If they had it would be relevant in only that instance.  We ain't gonna find out!

However, what was of interest was the exclusion of bearings from the Fiat third year warranty, which is only an insurance "warranty" with many other exclusions, and the variation in cost of the repair.

Since warranty exclusions are a matter of record, there is no point in discussing them, though it may be instructive for all concerned to read them!

That just leaves the huge variation in cost for replacing the bearings.  There seems to be a prevailing view on here that the garage can charge more or less what they like, depending on how long it takes them to do the job.  That is the bit I disagree with. 

The garage has a duty to undertake the job with reasonable efficiency, and in the most cost effective manner for the customer.  That means balancing the cost of parts/ sub-assemblies/ full assemblies, with the probable cost of labour.  The customer should be given the alternatives where these are applicable.  If there is a risk in replacing just the bearing, this should be explained, and ditto the costs should that approach fail. 

Pricing on the basis of replacing the hub/bearing/pillar assembly might be reasonable for a commercial van if it gets it back on the road quickly.  For a motorhome, however, this is dubious economics, and a slower but cheaper alternative should be offered. 

I know, only too well, that labour rates vary.  However, can anyone explain how one job could be executed for £400, when the other was priced at £1,100?  Similar vehicles, similar ages.  Who is kidding whom?

And this stuff from Mrs Sea about special bits for motorhomes.  What on earth is all that about?  There are, so far as I know, no special wheel bearings for motorhomes, are there?  Either this is kidology, or a misunderstanding.

Whatever may be the cause of these pramature failures, the far more serious failure is in the process of repairing them.  I think someone is being taken for a very expensive ride, and he doesn't seem to have much sympathy for his predicament.  Given a properly equipped workshop, with a suitable press, and competent fitters, how long should it take, on average, to replace a three year old Ducato front wheel bearing?  How much do the parts cost?  Anything more than the sum of the two, is the garage charging the customer for its own inadequacies.  Not acceptable!

[Dave Newell]

starspirit - 2007-04-14 12:36 PM

 

Dave Newell - 2007-04-14 7:02 AM

 

I repeat for the hard of hearing, 20 failures reported out of at least 5000 vans does not in any way signify a common design fault or bad batch of bearings. If there were hundreds being reported I might think differently but until then this just is not a problem!

 

D.

 

 

No need to take that attitude Dave, as we can all hear and read perfectly well thank you.

Notwithstanding your greater mechanical knowledge and experience than my own, I would respectfully disagree with your conclusion that 20 out of 5000 is a not indicative of a problem?

That is 20 that are known - plus how many unknown - an unknown number maybe - and Fiat aren't going to tell us are they?

Even if 20 is the total extent of the issue, at 0.4% I would call that significant on a serious safety related and crucial component like a front wheel bearing?

Even more so if it were to fail or sieze on a fully laden van on the motorway at 80mph? Likely - probably not - possible - certainly?

My understanding, but I'm not exactly sure of the detail, is that some manufacturers will instigate a recall for failure rates of about this level?

Please let's not descend into a slanging match.

 

No attitude involved Richard, I thought you might have noticed my tongue in cheek as I wrote "hard of hearing " rather than something along the lines of "those who cannot read", all of which is irrelevant to the subject anyway.

 

I did say "REPORTED CASES", obviously un-reported cases cannot be counted because until they become reported there numbers are purely speculative. The 5000 figure came from an approximation (and admittedly a very rough one at that) that 50% of the 10,000 or so new motorhomes registered last year are on the Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen base, this figure is in itself rather speculative but it doesn't take into account any vans that are not motorhomes so the real failure percentage will, most likely, be a lot lower than the projected 0.4%.

 

I therefore re-assert my point that until many more failed front wheel bearings on these vehicles at low mileages and ages are reported there just isn't a problem.

 

D.

[Guest starspirit]

Fair enough Dave - I didn't spot your tongue - has it always been spotted in the past?

There may not be a problem as far as Fiat are concerned but it sure is one hell of an expensive and inconvenient problem for the poor owners concerned?

[Basil]

starspirit - 2007-04-14 5:04 PM

 

There may not be a problem as far as Fiat are concerned but it sure is one hell of an expensive and inconvenient problem for the poor owners concerned?

 

I believe and I think so does Brian that the expense has more to do with incompetent garages than Fiat themselves. Having just checked at my local freindly workshop the owner says quote "they are a bit of a s@d to do as they usually have to be ground off and then replaced with a big press which means more time to strip the complete hub and carrier off the vehicle but the cost of the bearings is £39.95 per side plus vat plus two hours labour per side at the worst." so make of that what you will that don't seem that expensive to me!

 

Bas

[colin]

Basil - 2007-04-14 7:37 PM

 

starspirit - 2007-04-14 5:04 PM

 

There may not be a problem as far as Fiat are concerned but it sure is one hell of an expensive and inconvenient problem for the poor owners concerned?

 

I believe and I think so does Brian that the expense has more to do with incompetent garages than Fiat themselves. Having just checked at my local freindly workshop the owner says quote "they are a bit of a s@d to do as they usually have to be ground off and then replaced with a big press which means more time to strip the complete hub and carrier off the vehicle but the cost of the bearings is £39.95 per side plus vat plus two hours labour per side at the worst." so make of that what you will that don't seem that expensive to me!

 

Bas

 

Let me see, what does a Fiat garage charge? £80/hr? so thats £400 for two sides, but if ground off I'm betting the stub gets 'nicked' for a local garage doing a 'cheap' job no problem, for a Fiat garage doing a 'no risk' repair, no way, its replace whole bottom end, Hey presto, £1100.

As to a 'Big Press' WHAT? I have done any number of similair bearings on anything from quad bikes to our road cranes, flypress gets the job done every time

[Brian Kirby]

Colin

In the absence of the arithmetic, that almost seem glib!

Do you happen to know the time to replace the bottom end and the parts cost for same?  It would be interesting to know. 

I'd expect the time to be maybe 1.5 hours, compared to the 2 hours for doing the more tricky bearing alone.  Say £120 + VAT.  That seems to allow around £350 + VAT for the hub/bearing/pillar sub-assembly.  Any offers?  If the bearing alone is £40, that seems to make the hub and pillar relatively expensive components.

Does anyone know which is the most difficult bearing mount, that in the hub or that on the pillar?  From what has been said above it sounds like the hub.  If true, I can see it may be necessary to also replace that, but why replace the pillar as well?