Fiat wheel bearings

[colin]

Ah but brian, they will have first have spent the time trying to get bearings off, who do you thinks going to pay for that?

p.s. from my experience of buying similair parts then bearings will be much cheaper than the rest

[Brian Kirby]

Now then Colin.  That's a bit of a get out!  I take it you don't, after all, know the price of the parts.  Does anyone else, by chance?

[Basil]

I don't doubt Colins thoughts. However having used a grinder to remove bearing tracks in the past, and watched it done on many occasions, I have never damaged or seen damage done to any other componant after all you don't grind right through you severely weaken the bearing track with a deep cut then apply the cold chisel and Manchester screwdriver which fractures the rest and allows sufficient clearance for it to drop off. Anyone who did damage another componant doing this is in my opinion incompetant. Likewise the internal track is cut with an air tool and the same method but using a suitable drift along with the MS forces the weakened bearing out.

Now the replacement is a different kettle of fish and although in the past I have used a suitable sized socket to drift the new bearing in, from my experience with the Peugeot 405 bearing, which is virtually the same design, type and size to the Sevel one it needed a big press (which as Colin appeared to misunderstand means 'big' in pressure not size). I am sure that traditional methods of fitting do not suit this type/ make of bearing from my experience.

Now for a main dealer to cop out and not do the job as it should be done and to take probably the most expensive option in the first instance is not excusable in my opinion.

 

Bas

[Basil]

Don't know about the other parts, wouldn't dream of needing to change them, but the bearings are listed at £34.37 on the following site

 

http://www.pugspares.co.uk/PartsSearchResults.asp?model=Boxer&component=Wheel+Bearings

 

Bas

[Guest peter]

As I've said before you dont need a powerfull press to put in a bearing. Put the bearing in the feezer and the hub in the oven and then drop the bearing in. Job done.

[icelander]

Thanks Peter

 

Good advice - perhaps less stress than applying a lot of pressure as well

[Guest peter]

It does work, as bearing shrinks when cold. It is an interference fit in the housing so a thou' or two smaller and it should just drop in, but you should always give it some assistance to seat it with a drift before it warms up or you will have a real hard job to shift it.

[ROND]

This bearing problem is more widespread than people seem to think after having my own problem i have been listening and watching and i have heard of many having the same problems. On MHF there is a thread going on the subject

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-15902.html

Makes interesting reading and makes me think i have had good wear out of my bearings at 32000 miles compared to some who see to have trouble at 10,000 miles.

Its a pity that the bearings are not made out of a material as tough as the Michelin tyres fitted as they have outlasted the bearings and in my book take more of a hammering than the bearings

Wake up Fiat and sort the problem.

[Brian Kirby]

That's very interesting, Ron.  Very helpful last post on page 3 of the mhf string you linked to.  Quotes bearing manufacturers to favour, and even a part No!

As you say, lots of evidence of failing bearings, and an indication Fiat may be prepared to recognise the problem.  Anyone affected by this should maybe follow your link, and try contacting one or two of the mhf posters, to see if they'll say what happened next. 

I still think Fiat have a bit of a quality broblem.  The references to dry bearings were also interesting, as were the replacement prices quoted.  Seemed around £50 for bearing and £250 for labour was top whack.  That'd be £600 max both sides.  Now, who was quoted £1,100!?

[ericlesley]

Hi Brian, it was me that was quoted and paid £1100. I have written to Fiat UK and forwarded FSH and all bills as requested and am still waiting for a reply, their customer services have told me twice on the phone that they will put a priority on my queries about quality and life of wheel bearings. I am about to leave for 3 weeks in Italy and when I get back I have a garage who says they can get the old bearings out of the old hubs, I am prepared to pay them to do that ,and if they can, I will take the garage who changed my hubs, pillars etc without trying to remove the bearings to Trading Standards Office to see what can be done through them.

I have no intention of letting them off the hook. I went to the National Motorhome show last week and about 50% of motorhomes are on Fiat Ducato base , so I think that Fiat will have to do a recall if all us victims keep on complaining and publicising the fault, though what the adverse publicity will do for our second hand value I dread to think!

Eric

[Rayjsj]

ROND - 2007-05-02 4:30 PM

 

This bearing problem is more widespread than people seem to think after having my own problem i have been listening and watching and i have heard of many having the same problems. On MHF there is a thread going on the subject

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-15902.html

Makes interesting reading and makes me think i have had good wear out of my bearings at 32000 miles compared to some who see to have trouble at 10,000 miles.

Its a pity that the bearings are not made out of a material as tough as the Michelin tyres fitted as they have outlasted the bearings and in my book take more of a hammering than the bearings

Wake up Fiat and sort the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Bearing Manufacturers in the MHF thread are Timken,SKF,NTN,SRN,DAEWOO (with Timken being best quality SKF not far behind) the others are Korean or Chinese (cheapest !!)

I would be tempted to to go to a motor factors, specify Timken or SKF and get a 'Trustworthy' local garage to fit them, and tell Fiat to XXXXXX !

They have a problem and WONT fix it 'cause it would cost too much.

Blame the 'Bean counter' who specifies the cheapest bearings for their production. The 'new' way of the motor world.

[ROND]

Yes interesting that they say that SKF are one of the best, the info i was given by te garage removing the old ones was that it was SKF bearings that had failed and they were replaced with SKF.

Perhaps the Chinese ones might have outlasted the Micheling rubber !!!!!!!

[flicka]

Rayjsj - 2007-05-02 9:44 PM

 

 

The Bearing Manufacturers in the MHF thread are Timken,SKF,NTN,SRN,DAEWOO (with Timken being best quality SKF not far behind) the others are Korean or Chinese (cheapest !!)

I would be tempted to to go to a motor factors, specify Timken or SKF and get a 'Trustworthy' local garage to fit them, and tell Fiat to XXXXXX !

They have a problem and WONT fix it 'cause it would cost too much.

Blame the 'Bean counter' who specifies the cheapest bearings for their production. The 'new' way of the motor world.

 

The Part No. quoted on the MHF thread will not be much, as it is a specific Part No.

Bearings are designated by an ISO reference and to get the SKF (Skefco) otr Timkim bearings the ISO ref iswhat is needed

I suspect it will be a standard metric dimension item Ball Bearings in inner The ISO No. will be stamped on the edge of the outer race comprising 4 numeric and possibly followed by some additional characters

Single Row Ball = 6

Double row ball bearings = 7

Duty = 2 (light) 3(medium) 4 (heavy

Internal dia = next 2 digits multiplied by 5 in millimeters

ie. 04 (x 5 =20mm), 10 (x5 = 50mm)

Additional character can be

Z = single metal seal

ZZ or 2Z = 2 metal seals (= sealed Bearing)

the Z can be replaced by R if the seals are "Rubber"

There can also be another additional Alpha character to indicate if the "cage" which holds the ball bearings is either Polymide or Steel

If anyone has an old bearing & would like to send me the I/D, O/D and Width I will check my refernce book for the ISO No.

Any good Bearing distributor (BSL Brammer & WYKO being the most widespread with branches throughout the UK) will be able to do this also and give guidance.

 

"the others are Korean or Chinese (cheapest !!)"

It was a major problem in the 70's & 80's when cheap Asian bearings flooded into the UK market, because although they conformed to the ISO No., dimensionally they had less No. ball bearing in the Race.

Don't know if that is still the case, as I still will not specify Asian bearings.

 

IMHO Motorhomes are best using the Steel cages and I suspect that as the base vehicles are primarily in regular commercial use Fiat may fit Polymide caged bearings this is a possible source for the problem.

 

Another point is, like tyres bearing do not appreciate standing in one position for lengthy periods, so it's another reason to run the van occasionally during winter layups.

 

Flicka

[ericlesley]

Hi Brian , and all other interested parties,

 

You will remember that I was Charged £1100.oo for changing wheel bearings by AMC of Chelmsford, A satisfactory financial outcome has been reached, FIAT UK have reviewed my case and have refunded £581.95 , that is 50% of the cost as a goodwill gesture. It remains to be seen if these new bearings last any longer.

 

Eric

[fjmike]

Just thought I would add that I had my near side wheel bearing go at 30000 miles. Had it seen too at the same place as Terrytraveller, quick turnround and job well done. Bye the way I work for a company that supplies the motor industry and the unaceptable level of faults is one part in a million and the goal post is soon to be moved to one in two million, so by motor industry standards we DO have a problem

[Brambles]

Are there any common factors here, like have all the bearing that have gone had alloy wheels fitted, and those with steel wheels have been OK?

J.

 

[Brian Kirby]

ericlesley - 2007-05-08 11:55 AM Hi Brian , and all other interested parties, You will remember that I was Charged £1100.oo for changing wheel bearings by AMC of Chelmsford, A satisfactory financial outcome has been reached, FIAT UK have reviewed my case and have refunded £581.95 , that is 50% of the cost as a goodwill gesture. It remains to be seen if these new bearings last any longer. Eric

Good for you Eric!  Well done.  Seems to place the reasonable cost a bit lower than the garage's charge.  However, did Fiat comment on the repair cost being unreasonable, or was this just acceptance that failure was premature, so they paid half on that ground?

[ericlesley]

Hi again Brian,

 

Fiat made no mention of me being overcharged in the first place nor did they answer my questions regarding life span and quality of bearings,, they just said it was a goodwill gesture and hoped I would accept it in the manner with which it had been given.

Eric

[Brian Kirby]

Well, on that basis, it would have been churlish for you to refuse!  ;-)

[Guest starspirit]

Any advance on the very plausible alloy wheel theory?

 

Are alloys wider and/or with a different offset to steel wheels?

 

That could explain the overload failure rate on what already seems to be a part which is towards the upper end of it's load bearing ability without any added stresses like wide heavy bodies and powerful 2.8 engines.

 

Maybe the bearing design goes back to the old Express / Ducato when engines and van sizes were smaller and perhaps it was never uprated when the Boxer was born?

 

I dunno - does anyone else?

[Brambles]

Hi Starspirit,

I was thinking along the lines of alloys and use of Ipact Drivers to tightened the bolts. Long shot, but the vibration from an impact driver is quite high and with alloy wheels with no give around the mounting holes maybe more 'shock waves' are transmitted to the bearings.

Also, I believe Fiat do not always supply the alloy wheels but are fitted by the coach builders in many cases who may use impact wrenches.

Also in use, road vibration that is not absorbed by the tyre will all ne transmitted to the suspension, wheres steel wheels have a bit of give.

Another common factor icould be Michelin camping tyres with their much stiffer side walls and especially if running at 80psi as many 'non informed of the correct pressure' owners do. So is 80 psi in the tyres attributing to the premature failure.

Just ideas as maybe there is a common factor, maybe not.

Jon.

 

[flicka]

starspirit - 2007-05-08 9:38 PM

 

Any advance on the very plausible alloy wheel theory?

 

Are alloys wider and/or with a different offset to steel wheels?

 

I dunno - does anyone else?

 

I can not see that Alloys will have any detrimental effect.

They are also available as an "after market" for fitting using the original Wheel Studs.

They are uncommon (in volume terms) and do not require any configuration changes, so with their design technology should have no different characteristics other than weight.

It would require a survey of people who have had failures to determine the percentage of Steel v Alloy wheels and that would still not determine any increased risk without knowing the volumes of each fitted to Vans.

 

As my previous post, I still suspect a main cause will be due to M/H's being stood with the weight on one position for considerable periods.

Flicka

[Brambles]

I am actually discovering alloy wheels being responsible is not as quite so far fetched as you (and I at first) thought.

Aparrently there have been recalls on some vehicles ( Kia being one make and affected certain models) where water would collect under the hub cap on axles fitted with alloy wheels. With Steel wheels with plastic covers, water would not collect because of the improved airflow aroubd the axle. The water would then work it's way into the bearing.

Now I think the Ducatto having a different arrangement and the hub nut is tightened against the hub shoud seal it, but certainly something not to overlook as a possibility. Applies to steel wheels as well, but could condensation for example be getting collected in the bearing when it is standing laid up for a while. Just a thought. Sealed bearngs or not, if water is around the lip of the seal it will work itsway in.

 

Another possibility of wheel bearing damage I have come across before is interesting. It is caused by static conductng through the bearing and causing lots and lots of tiny pitting. This is actually a common problem for all bearings on rotating shafts if static is an issue. Now I know in most cars any static that could build up and between the hub (and wheel) is normaly conducted through the brake pads to the pillar/flange so no potential builds up across the bearing. But again, does the Ducato have a problem, maybe the brake calipers are insulated by plastic sleeves on the guide rods tthat do not conduct.

These are just some thoughts, but don't knock them, they are real problems that designers have to take care off. Off course we still come back to the bearings just may not be of quality, man enough for the job, or damaged when assembled into the hubs in the 1st place.

[ROND]

Having had both my front bearings go and having read the theory of alloy wheels and the vehicle standing idle i can say i would definately disagree with both.

My vehicle has ordinary steel wheels as fitted by Fiat and has never had chance to sit idle having covered 32000 miles in 3 years, it has been well used and well maintained by the Fiat main dealer. as i said earlier in my posts the fitters seem to think that the Ducato chassis is just not up to carrying the weight of the motorhome bodies fitted to them and that aplies to wheel bearings and also the handbraking system, ok for 2 ton vehicles but not built for 3.85 tons. The bearings are just not man enough.

[Brambles]

According to the usedvanexpert.co.uk website (I registered to get full report), the ducato had issues with wheelbearings and warranty has been increased from 1 to 3 years.

Jon.