Chausson PC180 control panel not working after flat leisure battery

[JohnPG]

Embarrassingly the EHU has been turned off at the plug, so whilst I have merrily assumed we were topping up the battery for the last few weeks, it has in fact gone completely flat. Realised this evening when I popped in and the lights wouldn't turn on.

 

Now the EHU is turned on at the switch (and hopefully charging the battery), but the control panel has not returned to life. I think it's a CBE PC180.

 

Interestingly the fridge has power and is working, but without the control panel we have no lights, water, water level sensors etc.

 

Any ideas on how to turn it back on?

 

I did flick the main electric switch but didn't pull out all fuses in the consumer unit, on the basis that I couldn't see why a fuse would blow from a flat battery and it was getting dark.

 

Further query, will the leisure battery recover once charged or is it time to replace>

 

Thanks

 

John

[StuartO]

Replacement batteries are relatively inexpensive and by completely flattening you leisure battery it will probably have failed completely. Choose a good make (eg Varta if lead acid, Exide if gel) and ensure it is fully charged as you install it. Hopefully your control panel will then show signs of life.

[Alanb]

John,

 

I have followed several threads where the habitation battery has been allowed to slowly discharge.

 

Unfortunately in most of these threads the outcome was not good for the CBE PCxxx control panel

 

The electronics do not seem to like a slowly decaying supply voltage.

 

I have seen mentions of an emergency (SOS) fuse position but a request for further info was ignored. I cannot see where such a fuse could be inserted on my own 2006 DS520AN 12V distribution board, but it is possible that on your more recent PC300? an SOS fuse position may have been provided.

 

The above emergency facility would give pump and lights etc. Level indications can be managed.

 

Worth checking you manual and inspecting your DS300 for any hint.

 

For a possible repair of the PC180, Applejack has been mentioned on this forum.

 

Alan

[Ocsid]

There is also the potential issue that the "smarter" chargers we now encounter, can't cope with a truly flat battery, there needs to be something there for it to recognise a battery is there.

 

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Edit: the highly regarded repairer refered to is Apuljack Engineering

 

http://www.apuljackengineering.co.uk/

 

 

[JohnPG]

Hi Alan,

 

Many thanks for responding.

 

I also read a thread last night on some 1A fuses, but nothing obvious (albeit my experience with the 12v fridge fuse tells me that there can be fuses in the most inaccessible places!).

 

There was another thread talking about a 50a fuse potentially near the batteries, but I couldn't see anything.

 

I'm hoping that when I get home, the EHU and battery charger has worked some magic and a minimum level needed to be achieved and the control board has some lights on. Failing that, it's to test whether there is any power getting through to the control panel. However I'm not sure tonight is a good one for finding a few hours to problem solve.

 

Thanks

 

John

[Robinhood]

The info available online for the PC180 is rather lacking, but I believe that particular control panel has an "undervoltage" trip that isolates the leisure battery at 10V.

 

Whether this inhibits the charger or not, and whether it self-resets on voltage rise is not at all clear (given the said lack of documentation).

 

I'd be inclined to read whatever manual you have and see if it has a manual reset procedure if the undervoltage has been tripped. I'd also be inclined to measure the voltage at the leisure battery terminals to ensure that it is, in fact, holding some charge and is well above 10V.

 

If you can't find a reset procedure, you could try disconnecting and reconnecting the panel at the rear.

[Alanb]

Ocsid - 2021-07-07 1:18 PM

 

There is also the potential issue that the "smarter" chargers we now encounter, can't cope with a truly flat battery, there needs to be something there for it to recognise a battery is there.

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Edit: the highly regarded repairer referred to is Apuljack Engineering

 

http://www.apuljackengineering.co.uk/

Thanks for the correction.

 

Alan

[Alanb]

JohnPG - 2021-07-07 1:32 PM

 

Hi Alan,

 

Many thanks for responding.

 

I also read a thread last night on some 1A fuses, but nothing obvious (albeit my experience with the 12v fridge fuse tells me that there can be fuses in the most inaccessible places!).

 

There was another thread talking about a 50a fuse potentially near the batteries, but I couldn't see anything.

 

I'm hoping that when I get home, the EHU and battery charger has worked some magic and a minimum level needed to be achieved and the control board has some lights on. Failing that, it's to test whether there is any power getting through to the control panel. However I'm not sure tonight is a good one for finding a few hours to problem solve.

 

Thanks

 

John

Does your vehicle have a split charge relay mounted on the DS300 PCB ( a black cube of about 1" side) at the bottom right of the PCB? If not then perhaps two of "boite relais de securite" (from memory). If fitted one box connects to the starter battery, and functions as a split charge relay, while the other box may be used as an "EMC" master cut off relay. These boxes contain a relay with a blade fuse in the operating coil circuit, and a 50A midi fuse coloured red. These midi fuses are the main DS300 fuses for the starter, and habitation batteries. These main fuses, should be as close as practicable to their respective batteries. However like you, I do not see any reason for these fuses to blow your situation.

 

Ocsid has suggested that a modern battery charger may refuse to charge a completely flat battery. I can also see the possibility that the current surge into a completely flat battery, may blow the 20A output fuse of a CB516 charger, which is a common piece of CBE kit.

[JohnPG]

All thanks.

 

By way of further update. The manual with for the PC180 suggests unclipping the negative from the battery for 10 seconds to see if that resets the panel.

 

That might work - a further update on that will follow, but not for a few days.

 

Despite 20+ hours of charging the leisure battery from the EHU, it had only just achieved 10.2v. Upon turning the EHU off, the charge in the battery started to drop (literally a 0.01 a second). Assuming I was doing something incorrectly I have completely removed the leisure battery and used a "fast" charge in the garage. 2 hours later, and again the leisure battery is losing charge at a phenomenal rate.

 

Assuming that there is an "undervoltage" trip as suggested by Robinhood, I haven't managed to get above 10v for long enough to see whether the control panel will come back to life with a charge above 10v.

 

So, I'll order a new leisure battery, get that installed to see whether the control panel returns to life and give an update afterwards.

 

Now some research on which battery to replace it with....

 

Thanks

[Brian Kirby]

PC110 control panel, not PC180, but if it is left on when the fresh water tank is empty, it continually flashes the empty tank warning until it totally locks up and becomes completely unresponsive. Under this condition, it is possible to reset the panel by turning off the charger and then withdrawing a 50A blade fuse installed under the driver's (LHD) seat, connecting to the habitation battery "+" terminal post. (I think this arrangement is to make the fuse more readily accessible as, if mounted at the "+" terminal, access would involve removal of the seat.) Then waiting a few seconds before reinstalling the fuse. This simply dumps all 12V power to the panel.

 

However, I am not advocating this, as I have no idea if it might make matters worse in your case, but in the hope that someone else might be able to advise as to whether it may work.

 

Alternatively, I have e-mailed CBE in the past on a different matter, and got a helpful and accurate reply from them, so this may also be worth a try before experimenting.

[Robinhood]

JohnPG - 2021-07-07 7:17 PM

 

Assuming that there is an "undervoltage trip as suggested by Robinhood, I haven't managed to get above 10v for long enough to see whether the control panel will come back to life with a charge above 10v.

...that (and the 10V value) came from a block schematic specifically for the PC180 that I found when looking for online info, but unfortunately I can't find it again.

 

However, I have found a few posts referencing it for that panel, AND, the CBE website references the fact that it has a "save service battery function" (though doesn't confirm the cut-off voltage). The more sophisticated PC380 refers to this function in the same terms, and also describes it as undervoltage control.

 

There may be an automatic reset if the voltage is raised sufficiently (but remember, the measurement at the panel might be less than at the battery terminals due to losses in the wiring) or you may have to go through a/the reset procedure. (Any auto reset also might well require a source somewhat above the cutout voltage).

 

It looks very much like the panel function will be disabled if the voltage drops below a threshold, and if your battery is shot, as it seems, the sensible first step will be to replace it and take it from there, before worrying about other potential issues - it may simply be working as designed.

[Ocsid]

The fast charge, out of the vehicle in the garage, not getting much above 10 volts raises the possibility the battery could now just be a 5 cell rather than a 6 cell unit?

 

That could certainly stress a smart charger and if designed so, force it into a self-protect mode.

 

Again, points to seeing how the charger functions with a known good battery.

[jimbo07g41]

JohnPG - 2021-07-07 1:32 PM

 

Hi Alan,

 

Many thanks for responding.

 

I also read a thread last night on some 1A fuses, but nothing obvious (albeit my experience with the 12v fridge fuse tells me that there can be fuses in the most inaccessible places!).

 

There was another thread talking about a 50a fuse potentially near the batteries, but I couldn't see anything.

 

I'm hoping that when I get home, the EHU and battery charger has worked some magic and a minimum level needed to be achieved and the control board has some lights on. Failing that, it's to test whether there is any power getting through to the control panel. However I'm not sure tonight is a good one for finding a few hours to problem solve.

 

Thanks

 

John

 

Just on this, I was hunting for traditional fuses. However, the 50amp ones on my van were a mix of link (near leisure and into vehicle 12v supply) and midi fuses under the seat near to the starter battery (standard on Ford Transit).

[Alanb]

To allay any doubt at the top of page 15 of my CBE manual there is a clause entitled "MINIMAL VOLTAGE CONTROL". The voltage is quoted as 10V. I have always considered this to be too low, and have often wondered if it could be tweeked. Unfortunately John's experience seems to be confirming my thoughts. Some reverse engineering required!

 

John,

 

I asked the question about the split charge relays, either integral with the DS300, or in "Boite de Securite" (small grey boxes), with a view to suggesting a safe method of patching across the split charge relay, so that you could run carefully on the starter battery. This is certainly possible, but as you are at home? I appreciate that you may wish to just sort the battery problem.

 

Alan

[Robinhood]

Alanb - 2021-07-07 9:10 PM

 

To allay any doubt at the top of page 15 of my CBE manual there is a clause entitled "MINIMAL VOLTAGE CONTROL". The voltage is quoted as 10V. I have always considered this to be too low, and have often wondered if it could be tweeked.

Schaudt equipment seems to use 10.5V as the cut-off. My feeling was that even this is too low, but in reality, they have to cover on-load voltage (which could be significantly lower than off-load), so I suspect it is a reasonable value to use.

[JohnPG]

Hi Alan,

 

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I had considered the split charge to run off the starter battery. ,But, in truth, it's beyond my current abilities and I feared for what damage I could unintentionally do whilst trying to overcome a different problem. Immobilising the van, resetting the radio, alarms, blowing fuses etc. I concluded that I should focus on just replacing the leisure battery.

 

I'm home now - it's just work that gets in the way!

 

Thanks again

 

John

[Robinhood]

...having now re-read the instructions for the PC100/200 series of panels, (it's a bit since I had a 'van with one of these), I note they also detail the protection function at the 10V threshold, and also confirm that the reset should automatically occur when the service battery voltage reaches >12V.

 

Given the basic function is documented the same, I'd be surprised if this were any different for the (newer) PC180.

[Derek Uzzell]

My 2015 Rapido motohome has a CBE PC180-RA control panel and - although my (2013 edition) CBE hardcopy manual for that panel describes the 10V minimal voltage protection feature - there’s no mention of an automatic reset after the voltage subsequently exceeds 12V. Nor does my manual suggest the possibility of resetting the system by disconnecting the battery for 10 seconds (mentioned by JohnPG above) - though it’s often advised on motorhome forums that disconnecting a dead/frozen control-panel would be worth trying and might revive it. (The manual includes a wiring diagram that shows “ELECTRONIC BOARD Min. Voltage <10V”)

 

Regarding the “SOS” feature referred to by Alanb above, I believe this is only available on more sophisticated/expensive CBE systems (eg. a PC380/DS470 combination).

[Alanb]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-07-08 9:05 AM

 

===================================================================================

 

 

Regarding the “SOS” feature referred to by Alanb above, I believe this is only available on more sophisticated/expensive CBE systems (eg. a PC380/DS470 combination).

 

That is what I suspected.

 

Alan

[JohnPG]

So, today has been a better day.

 

After research on batteries last night, I phoned a forum recommended provider to check the order I was about to place made sense (I do find speaking is much more beneficial than simply ordering online). I expressed my significant disappointment that after just one discharge the battery was now simply refusing to charge / hold any power at all.

 

The ever so helpful salesperson enquired whether it is an AGM battery (which it is). I was then informed that a lot of chargers (including internal) won't work straight away and that you have to first "trick the battery and charger". A helpful youtube video on AGM battery restoration later, and I have used car jump leads off the starter battery, to trick the dead AGM into receiving 12v. Initial signs are favourable and fingers crossed that in a further 24 hours the leisure battery will be in a position to return to its housing. Even if it doesn't work, it's given a little enjoyment.

 

The added bonus has then been to test whether the control panel would return to life with 12v from the starter battery. Alan, I think this is what you may have been suggesting? Given that I had the jump leads out, I attached them to the habitation cables and ta-da! the PC180 has lights showing and one delighted owner.

 

Even if the battery doesn't recover I can be comfortable that it's not now the expense of a new leisure battery AND control panel. Silver linings....

[Alanb]

John,

 

Great news. Shows what a team effort can achieve.

 

Unless you have already committed to purchase, consider moving away from AGM. AGM batteries have not had a good press on this forum. Try aandncaravanservices website for some reading.

 

Alan