The curse of Kontiki

[sshortcircuit]

Part of the reason I did not renew my subscription to the other lot was I was fed up with the moans and groans.

 

Russell apppears to suffer many barriers which are hurdles to others and immediately comes to press.

 

As has been suggested he should give his dealer a chance and Im afraid fit for purpose does not come into the equation using a vehicle as a permanent home which is designed for recreational use.

 

I have Kontiki 660 of about the same age and am absolutely delighted

[Rapide561]

I am very pleased you are happy with your Kontiki. However, when major components such as a door, an EC200 panel (now on the third one) need replacing, I hope you can appreciate my dissatisfaction with the product.

 

I believe in credit where credit is due, and at this stage feel the dealer is doing their level best to assist.

 

For those not familar with the whole saga, the dealer is Cleveland Motorhomes.

 

As for trading standards, they are aware and have given me guidelines to follow. They have not suggested they would not assist further as a result of the van's financial value.

 

Russell

 

 

[Rapide561]

Shortcircuit - I like the word "barriers" in your post. The door could not be opened by me or the dealer. That was certainly a barrier.

 

 

[david lloyd]

sshortcircuit - 2007-05-06 8:32 PM

 

...............Im afraid fit for purpose does not come into the equation using a vehicle as a permanent home which is designed for recreational use.

 

I have Kontiki 660 of about the same age and am absolutely delighted

 

Just a little harsh sshortcircuit, especially since the problems have all occurrred within a very short time frame from purchase. Presumably, if Russell had only been using it for 'leisure' then the faults would still have surfaced but perhaps in a slightly longer time span and on a vehicle of this cost they still remain unacceptable.

 

Regards, David

[Brian Kirby]

sshortcircuit - 2007-05-06 8:32 PM Part of the reason I did not renew my subscription to the other lot was I was fed up with the moans and groans. Russell apppears to suffer many barriers which are hurdles to others and immediately comes to press. As has been suggested he should give his dealer a chance and Im afraid fit for purpose does not come into the equation using a vehicle as a permanent home which is designed for recreational use. I have Kontiki 660 of about the same age and am absolutely delighted

Pray, how does a curtailed 6 month trip equate to using the vehicle as a permanent home?  We've spent nine months in ours over the past two years, divided over three major trips and a couple of shorties.  So how long are we to be allowed to occupy a motorhome on the trot before we are abusing it?  Two weeks? Four? A month?  Do faults emerge because things are intensively used, or because they are poorly made/assembled?  As stated above, the only consequence of intensive use is that the latent defects emerge sooner.  Whatever the timescale, they are still defects.

[Rapide561]

The best part of course is the door - defective since day 1!.

 

The EC200 - yes - to conk is one thing, but for the replacement to be a failure too is a bit of a non starter.

 

As for fit for purpose, the Swift brochure does not say that the vehicle could not be used as a home, and, furthermore, prior to ordering, an email was sent to the dealer - and acknowledged - which included my intentions for the van.

 

No arguing please - the purpose of the post is to highlight this ongoing sitation. The number of failings is ridiculous. The fact that the reversing camera has conked - something that is maybe in operation for seconds - can hardly be as a result of "full timing". Equally, the rear ladder lock failure - I have used the ladder only a handful of times.

 

Hopefully though things are moving ahead. At present, only the door and reverse camera are outstanding. The door can however be opened which is an improvement. There is a problem with the Truma but as this is an intermittent fault it is difficult for the dealer to detect. To assist the dealer, I was able to provide a recording of the "loud rattling" noise coming from the boiler.

 

I also add I had a Compass motorhome - approx half the value of the Kontiki and despite being used in severe winter conditions in Italy and Austria, nothing broke, failed or fell off.

[Rapide561]

Brian Kirby - 2007-05-06 9:18 PM

sshortcircuit - 2007-05-06 8:32 PM Part of the reason I did not renew my subscription to the other lot was I was fed up with the moans and groans. Russell apppears to suffer many barriers which are hurdles to others and immediately comes to press. As has been suggested he should give his dealer a chance and Im afraid fit for purpose does not come into the equation using a vehicle as a permanent home which is designed for recreational use. I have Kontiki 660 of about the same age and am absolutely delighted

Pray, how does a curtailed 6 month trip equate to using the vehicle as a permanent home?  We've spent nine months in ours over the past two years, divided over three major trips and a couple of shorties.  So how long are we to be allowed to occupy a motorhome on the trot before we are abusing it?  Two weeks? Four? A month?  Do faults emerge because things are intensively used, or because they are poorly made/assembled?  As stated above, the only consequence of intensive use is that the latent defects emerge sooner.  Whatever the timescale, they are still defects.

Note - the trip was initially shortened from 6 months to five to get the van back to the dealers before it was one year old. It was then shortened further following the death of my much loved dog overseas. The van was intended as a "full time home" at Garda for the six month period, but as you say, you have used your van for longer than that. It could be added that does a van with one careful adult owner, in it 24/7, take more abuse than a van with a family of six on a three week trip to Spain?I personally feel that as a lot of problems happened early into my Italian trip, the time I have spent in the van is irrelevant. Maybe I should not over winter in Spain this year for fear of what else might fail LOL LOLRussell

[Frankkia]

A point I would like to see highlighted in all this is that many of the problems you have encountered (and I feel many others have too) are potentially life threatening. When you mix two kinds of electrical supply and gas and water in a box (motorhome) you have the potential of a very explosive situation. Manufacturers and dealers have a duty of care for their customers safety and if they allow shoddy parts or workmanship to continue it is more than likely that someone will be hurt if not killed.

 

In your 'van you have had serious gas leaks and electrical problems which could have been disasterous. Added to that you had to secure a caravan door which could not have been used in an emergency (had the worst happened).

 

I have (a few years ago) seen a 'van burn to the ground and it took less time to do so than it has for me to type this - the fault which caused the fire was apparently bad wiring on the water pump. Luckily no one was injured.

 

Does it take someone to die before the trade are forced to improve their quality standards!!!!!!!!

 

On the subject of Brit verses foreign. After also owning a brit "pup" we decided never to buy British again however we did own a Dethleffs I7876 for a couple of months and gave it back to the dealer - why? - It was a German pup (Hund)!!!!!!!!!!

[Rapide561]

Door - yes - I said to Swift "suppose there is a front end severe accident on the motorway, presumably the emergency services would like to gain access via the hab door - but can't".

 

As I say though, at least it is getting better. The door has been adjusted so at least it opens and closes and can be locked. At one point in Italy it was unlockable (if there is such as word) and hence not secure. Later it was shut and would not open - too secure LOL

 

 

[Rapide561]

Door - yes - I said to Swift "suppose there is a front end severe accident on the motorway, presumably the emergency services would like to gain access via the hab door - but can't".

 

As I say though, at least it is getting better. The door has been adjusted so at least it opens and closes and can be locked. At one point in Italy it was unlockable (if there is such as word) and hence not secure. Later it was shut and would not open - too secure LOL

 

 

[Supertractorman]

Brian,

 

When I purchased my Bessacarr, it came with many details and check sheets, which would lead me to believe that checks are done at least on paper although for my van they must have been thorough as the defects were very few.

The lists I have 1, Copy of all items on build sheet, ( 3 Double pages with signatures and dates, presumably Supervisors or Builders ). 2, Page listing all major items fitted. 3, Production Works Card with signatures of employee testing Water system, Gas system, Mains systems, and Final checker of van,

4, Pre- Delivery preparation sheet at factory, checking all small items in place such as Door Mat, cushions etc. 5, Line Defects and Rework report with various remarks and checks to show work done . Some items on mine were Microwave cupboard door out of line, Bed rails catching vent board, Gap in floor by Drivers seat, Glue on O/S Locker cornice, etc.

6, BS EN 1949 : 2002 Installation and Soundness Test Certificate showing checks to Gas, Refridgerator, Cooker, Hob, Oven, Water Heater, Combi Water Heater Boiler. 7, Touring & Motor Caravan Certificate BS7671: 2001,

Signed for Design, Construction, Inspection & Testing, all signed by different personnel.

 

All the above show that checking is done to BS standards, and as they are with the van then they must have nothing to hide. None of the dates on mine were Friday 13th so I must be lucky !!.

 

David

[colin]

I am always sceptical about signed off paperwork (some would say I'm sceptical about everthing!) this comes from 30+ years experience in the aerospace industry, at work we have come across many insansies of work signed off when it has not been done or does comply with standards, and on aircraft most things are safety critical and suposidly we have one of the tightess regulatory systems of any industry.

[Vernon B]

colin - 2007-05-08 12:17 PM

 

I am always sceptical about signed off paperwork (some would say I'm sceptical about everthing!) this comes from 30+ years experience in the aerospace industry, at work we have come across many insansies of work signed off when it has not been done or does comply with standards, and on aircraft most things are safety critical and suposidly we have one of the tightess regulatory systems of any industry.

 

Thanks Colin that's really re-assuring. If you'd have published this earlier Gordon Brown wouldn't have had to increase the carbon fuel tax to deter us using budget flights!

 

Vernon

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2007-05-08 12:17 PM I am always sceptical about signed off paperwork (some would say I'm sceptical about everthing!) this comes from 30+ years experience in the aerospace industry, at work we have come across many insansies of work signed off when it has not been done or does comply with standards, and on aircraft most things are safety critical and suposidly we have one of the tightess regulatory systems of any industry.

Thing is Colin, which would you sooner have?  The van with the signed off paperwork, or without.  With the paperwork, if you find faults that are supposed to have been attended to, you have them, to some extent, by the short hairs.  With no paperwork, all you have is a fault that no-one is making any claim about.  I know the ideal is no fault, but this is the real world!  On balance, therefore, I'd sooner have the QA evidence than not.  However, I do wonder if the difference between the Bessacarr's QA, and that of Kon Tiki, might be where they are built.  Does anyone know if they both come from the same "factory"?

[mikemoss]

Brian Kirby - 2007-05-08 5:41 PM

 

However, I do wonder if the difference between the Bessacarr's QA, and that of Kon Tiki, might be where they are built.  Does anyone know if they both come from the same "factory"?

 

Pretty sure they do. They're both Swift group 'vans, so presumably come off the same line as do all Aces. Very little difference between Bessacarr and KonTiki these days, apart from bits of trim and upholstery. Badge engineering lives on....

[Rayjsj]

colin - 2007-05-08 12:17 PM

 

I am always sceptical about signed off paperwork (some would say I'm sceptical about everthing!) this comes from 30+ years experience in the aerospace industry, at work we have come across many insansies of work signed off when it has not been done or does comply with standards, and on aircraft most things are safety critical and suposidly we have one of the tightess regulatory systems of any industry.

 

 

 

In my past life as a (steam) Computer mainframe engineer,i used to have to visit Rolls Royce (ex De Havilland) Helicopter engine plant at Leavesden in Hertfordshire. I well remember the large signs everywhere in the production areas 'Swarf Kills' I had visions of large balls of man-eating metal waste prowling along the production line. the plant was working flat out 24/7 during the Falklands war refurbishing chopper engines AND quality was PARAMOUNT. (it's now a movie set for the Bond Films !)

Quite ironic that the latest 6 wheeled Kon-Tiki is the star of the latest Which Motocaravan and MMM. ???

 

:D :D

[Brian Kirby]

Maybe Russell should just take his back to the factory then, ask to see the production manager, and then ask him to explain what happened to the QA.  He might even get it fixed by the perpetrators, and they could use it as a training exercise!  Win, win??

[Rayjsj]

Brian Kirby - 2007-05-08 7:15 PM

 

Maybe Russell should just take his back to the factory then, ask to see the production manager, and then ask him to explain what happened to the QA.  He might even get it fixed by the perpetrators, and they could use it as a training exercise!  Win, win??

 

 

 

 

 

If Only, If Only,

 

I'm sure that such a confrontation WOULD make a differance, the guys on the production line would probably be able to tell what the REAL story is.

There are always some 'Am I Bovvered' types in any workforce,but most workers DO have pride in what they produce. But Leadership Must come from the top down,to engender and encourage that pride.

[Supertractorman]

In my opinion if you have to put your name to something then beware it might bounce back at you, in this case the person who finally signed it off is also responsible for not doing their job properly. Have most owners received the same paperwork with their new vans as I received?, as in Rapides' case it could be interesting reading.

 

David

[Basil]

Trouble is most of these 'paperwork' exercises are to enable a company to gain the ISO9000 badge and are just that, a paperwork exercise that does nothing to improve quality but like much of today's spin just plays 'lip service' IMO having been involved in the implememtation at a company that I spent a period of time consulting with.

 

Bas

[Mel B]

mikemoss

 

They are all made just a few minutes down the road from me, Swift, Kontiki, Ace, Bessecar - I see them lined up in the compound from time to time.

 

The Ace is the 'budget' of the range, followed by Swift, then Bessacar and finally Kontiki on the top ... or that's the theory at least!

 

They are all made basically (as far as I can tell) of the same basic components with different twiddly bits, like upholstery, mouldings in some cases, and other bits of extras equipment/spec to differentiate between them.

 

If you're not in the Swift owners club already it might be an idea to join them and see when their next rally is going to be at the Swift factory ... you could pounce on the MD there ......!!! :D

[tejay]

Hi to all, we have just bought a kontiki 669.It's delivery to cleveland motorhomes was promised by Swift at the end of March.It never happened!! what a surprise. They (swift) told the director Neil Jackson that it was being delayed due to quality control issues.It was rescheduled for delivery April 3rd ( we had things arranged for the easter weekend) it never happened either!! It was eventually deliver to Cleveland on 11th with none of the extras that we had ordered in November 2006. It had all the "quality conrol" paperwork with signed and dated.But the staff at Clevelands did a great job fitting them and turning it around in two days. We are going back on May 26th for work that should have been done at the factory.It requires,tha habitation fixed as it does not close at top lock,the fridge will not work on 12 volt ( so it thaws out when travelling) wardrobe and various cupboard doors are out of alginment,wardrobe light stays on,heater is crap, 7" T.V. is not a T.V. but a screen for the freeview system.not much use unless you can pick up a signal,the rooof rack has missing brackets and flaps about.All of this on a van of £59990 .my sister bought a smaller Compas van with NO PROBLEMS with it and a lot more fitted as standard,external water tank filling point and pump,map pockets plus some other smaller nice touches.Cleveland Motorhomes are going to do the best that they can and we hope that they can but if all is not rectified we will be seeing our solicitor re rejecting it under the sale of goods act as " not fit for purpose. WATCH THIS SPACE!! p.s.our last van was a kontiki 645 and we never had any problems with it.P.P.S we have nothing to do with Clevelands other than being happy custumers

[Brian Kirby]

So, what you are highlighting is that Swift's QA, at least as it is applied to Kon Tikis, isn't working. 

I believe Swift claim to be ISO 9001 accredited.  I'd still suggest, if you have the QA paperwork, that you contact the company that issues Swift's QA certificate (it should name the issuer on the certificate), and ask what is their attitude is to QA failures on the scale you have experienced.  BSI may also be interested in how the certificate can be maintained when the procedures are being broken.  It is possible the inspector is turning a "blind eye" to shortcomings after a good lunch!

This is primarily a Swift QA issue and it won't get fixed until someone, or something, gets Swift's QA Manager/Director's attention.  It is also grossly unfair on their dealers and customers who end up doing their QA fixes for them.  The threat of being publicly humiliated by losing their QA cert should achieve that!

I know your contract is with the dealer, and legally he has to fix the faults, but if the issuer of Swift's QA certificate could be persuaded to look at the van before the faults are remedied, the next time they visit Swift's factory they may take a bit more persuading that the QA systems are being observed day to day, rather than just when they turn up to inspect!  Won't fix your problem, but it may, just, benefit others.  It may even benefit Swift!  Wouldn't it be nice to have a British manufacturer, just for once, who everyone agrees achieves excellent quality in this field and betters the Germans and the French?

[RonB]

I can't see what all the fuss is about. After over a years wait for our dealer to wake up they at last got round to trying to stop our Burstner leaking. That was over six weeks ago for what was a supposedly two day job. To be fair they did return it after four weeks in exactly the same condition as before and promptly had to take it back again. I have been trying all day to get the service manager to phone me back for an update without success. Now that's what I call service - thanks Chelston.

 

If any-one's interested I'm putting the Burstner on Ebay when we get it back - you'll find it under 'Rubbish Disposal'.

 

Have fun.

[Supertractorman]

Brian,

 

My past experiences of ISO 9001 and its predecessor BS5750 is only to prove that paperwork systems are in order, and what paperwork was raised when there was a complaint, and what action was done. I would imagine most manufacturers are sheltered from their customers by referring them to their dealer, after all the only opportunity we have of seeing a "Company person" is on a stand at a show. The MD is probably being entertained on a suppliers stand elsewhere rather than getting any flack!.

 

David