Buying abroad

[Guest Elaine]

Has anyone bought motorhome in europe new/second hand.Considering it as fancy German van, Hymer in particular. Also if you buy motorhome at a show do you get discount,going to york Sep.

[Guest Roger]

Buying in Germany is not something to be daunted about.Because a motorhome is based on a commercial cab you don't need a certificate of conformity(homologation)which simplifies things.Once you get it back to the Uk go to your local DVLA office and they'll help with registration and once that is done they'll send the documents off to the Vat people. The exciting bit is that you will pay in euros what you would pay in pounds over here so you save a minimum of 30% on UK prices.

[Guest Paul W]

Don't forget to allow for changing the upholstery because the continental vans do not use fire retardent foam and are potential killers.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Paul W: Don't overlook the similar need to replace the polystyrene insulation many converters (including UK ones) use in the construction of the sandwich walls, floor and roof of their coachbuilt motorhomes. Then there's the foam that base-vehicle manufacturers employ for the cab-seats, and the rubbery stuff used for crash-protection in dashboards, steering-wheels, cab doors, sun visors, etc. (Have you ever seen a car that's been 'torched'? It's not just the seats that burn.) If you've got a monocoque-bodied Auto-Sleeper, you might wish to replace the entrance door, as that's not fire retardant GRP I'm told. Don't forget the thermo-plastic material used in bathrooms - I'll bet that flares up well. Better swap the wood furniture for metal too, just to be sure. Of course anything gas-powered will have to get the chop - if ever there were a fire risk it's a naked-flame gas hob or oven, and the gas-bottles are potential bombs. (Wish I hadn't started this posting now - it's made me so paranoid about motorhome fire susceptibility the only sensible thing for me to do will be to never own another motorcaravan.)

[Guest Paul W]

Derek I think your dumbing down tactic of the upholstery problem is worthy of a politician, trying to make it sound as if it was not the major cause of fumes. The other build materials are far less likely to be the main incidence of a fire starting, the cylinders are potential bombs but like all the other things mentioned normally occur later in the burn. Most fires being caused by lighted cigarrettes being dropped on to cushions. If you were to be aware of Fire Authorities main causes of death from fire incidents in caravans and properties, for the sake of this the motorhome being lived in is the same, the commonest cause of death was by inhalation of fumes from old upholstery that did not have fire retardant interiors, this has lessened in this country as more modern fire retardent non toxic materials have started to increase. If you had ever attended one of these incidents and seen the otherwise untouched by heat bodies (sometimes in another room whilst sleeping) and the otherwise minimal damage to the property perhaps you would not be so dismisive. The first and most probable item to burn is the upholstery, yes the cab seats and ancilleries are not covered by living quarters regulations and come under 'Vehicle Construction and Use', thats how the continentals get away with it in the living quarters by classing the whole as a Motor Vehicle. In my, and some in governments, opinion that is wrong and when used as part of the living quarters should be under regulations for that. Yes there is also good logic to improving the standard of car interiors, look at the deaths after multiple motorway crashes from burning of people that would otherwise survive. It does not alter the fact that British Motorhomes use fire retardant fabrics and infill in the living area, the continental ones don't. It is for the purchaser to decide whether they wish to take the risk but it is also right that they are aware of this and weigh the risk accordingly. I for one have had the whole interior reupholstered for my own and my family's safety.

[Guest Roger]

This thread seems to have lost its way a tad thanks to Paul's "contribution". The simple fact is that if you wish to save in the region of £20k on a £60k motorhome buy in Germany.If you are prepared to be ripped off by a UK dealer or are as paranoid as Paul is don't.

[Guest Paul W]

Well thank you 'Roger', I think it would be fairer to say Dereks input caused a movement. In my initial post I was simply making Elaine aware that there are reasons that continental motorhomes are cheaper part of which is that it saves around £1500 on the cost at production which equates to a higher figure at point of sale. There is litigation on going over this subject as reported by the BBC News last month. Believe me it is not paranoia. I have seen first hand the outcomes, perhaps you should! Or is it easier to stick your head in the sand and say it will never happen to me.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Elaine: Returning to your original questions... If you are considering buying abroad I suggest you begin by obtaining: 1. An 'Import Pack' that describes the process of registering a vehicle imported into the UK and contains all the necessary forms. You can request this (it's free) by contacting the DVLA via their website (www.dvla.gov.uk) 2. The "Buying a Motorhome in Europe" general guide, plus the "Buying a Motorhome in Germany " supplement. These fact sheets are produced by MMM consultant Mel Eastburn and I've found them invaluable. You can obtain copies by sending a cheque for a minimum of £5, made payable to the charity Macintyre Care, and a 9" x 6" SAE to Mel Eastburn (Fact Sheet), MMM, PO Box 88, Tiverton EX16 7ZN Discounts on motorhomes are available at shows, but they are also available at motorcaravan dealerships. If you have no part-exchange, you should negotiate a healthy price reduction whatever you buy and wherever you buy it. Don't forget though that a 'exceptional bargain' motorhome is probably one nobody wants and there may be good reasons for this. By September manufacturers will be advertising their 2006 model line-ups, so motorhome salesmen will have an added incentive to get shot of 2005 (or earlier) 'new' vehicles. Paul: I admit to facetiousness, but not to the strategy you ascribe to me. At no stage have I downplayed the potential risks present in non-fire-retardant upholstery material and I believe my views were made very clear in my posting of 07/05. I fully agree with your penultimate paragraph in your response to my comments: personally, I am aware of the risks and (for my own vehicle) judge them to be acceptable. (As I'm getting some spare upholstery fabric with my new Hobby, out of interest I'll check its fire-resistance and report back.) However, I'm wary of your preceding paragraph and certain of your earlier arguments. Last week I was discussing the foam issue with a chap from the Auto-Sleepers factory. I was told that, although UK regulations still do not oblige our motorhome builders to use fire-retardant foam and upholstery fabric, a failure to do so would mean the conversion could not be NCC badged. Now, if a NCC badge confirms use of fire-retardant materials, a glance through MMM test-reports will reveal that some Continental-built 'vans carry the NCC badge (eg. Mirage 5000/Feb 2004) and some UK-built models don't (eg. Danbury Active/June 2005). In fact, I have no idea what upholstery materials Danbury use, but it seems likely that the smaller panel-van converters who buy in seat/bed units from Continental companies like FASP won't replace the (presumably) non-fire-retardant materials used in the seats' construction. So it appears that "UK Good - all Continentals bad" is an over-simplification. I confess to confusion on this. Apparently the regulations applying to UK-built trailer-caravans don't extend to motorhomes, but UK converters (all of them?) build their vehicles as if they did and thus make them eligible for the coveted NCC badge. Is it being alleged that there are no such regulations forcing Continental European companies to use fire-retardant upholstery (I assume this would include beds, curtains, carpets, etc.) in trailer-caravans or motorhomes, and so they don't in either? Or is it being maintained that there are Continental regulations for caravans but not motorhomes and Continental manufacturers choose to use different materials for the two classes of vehicles? (That would be strange.) If there are no Continental regulations, must Continental trailer-caravans sold officially in the UK conform to our 1988 regulations or are they exempted because of their place of origin? Given the numbers of apprehensive safety-related letters published in the Caravan Club magazine (Remember the drugs in the fridge-vents? What a winner that was!) I would have thought there would have been regular shrieks of outrage if Continental trailer-caravans were being sold here without 'safe' upholstery, but I don't remember ever reading anything about it. I can't recall that you've ever said what motorhome you own, but (purely out of nosiness) I'd be interested to learn whether you chose to have your 'van's upholstery replaced from new because of your fire-safety concerns, or whether wear-and-tear prompted the replacement as it did with the motorhome owner referred to in the Radio 4 programme.

[Guest Paul W]

Derek I only ever post to try to help, not to confuse and I don't play silly games. I do, however believe we are in 'Rip off Britain', as you would know if you have read earlier posts. Elaine asked a question asking for any 'thoughts' on buying abroad and my post was about the only snag I am aware of. On reflection perhaps I should have just said it may be worth checking that the upholstory is up to the highest fire retardent and toxicity standards, but there we go. I bought our m/home, a British built one, second hand and was not happy that the furnishings were safe so I had them changed, this was long before the BBC News item and was as a result of my work bringing me in to contact with some pretty nasty occurances.

[Guest martin h]

GET A SMOKE ALARM . GET A CHEAP MOTORHOME . AND GET A LIFE !!!

[Guest Mike C]

At the risk of extending the discussion and getting a suitable rebuke from Martin H there are some comments made about fire risk etc., in this thread that are not accurate and not applicable to Motor Caravans. Fire statistics clearly show that the main cause of accidental fire fatalities are Cooking Appliances which represent 58% of total fire fatalities. This is followed by Electrical Appliances and Distribution 15%, Smokers Materials and Matches 10%, Space Heating and Appliances 6% and unspecified which includes Candles, Naked Lights etc., 11%. These statistics are for Accidental Fires in Dwellings which include Caravans and Houseboats used for permanent occupation. These figures DO NOT include Touring Caravans or Motor Caravans. The Caravans are of the mobile home type like the Willerby units. Paul is correct in that fumes from upholstery are a major cause of fatalities in dwelling fires but may I point out that the argument has been about Fire RETARDANT upholstery not Totally Fire Proof or non-combustible upholstery. To create fire three elements are needed, A heat source, a combustible material and oxygen. If there is sufficient heat then even Fire Retardant upholstery will burn. The Key is to get quick warning of a fire and the ability to escape from it. The first is served by a good quality Fire Alarm (well done Martin) that is regularly tested and keep spare batteries. The second is served by a Motor Caravan having two or three doors and usually large enough windows to allow emergency exit. This leads on to the balance between quick exit in the case of fire and security locking of the vehicle. I have always been wary of fitting security straps between the cab doors for this very reason. I do not think personally I would justify the extra spending of £1500 on Fire Retardant Upholstery for a motor caravan. Paul I admire you for doing it but Derek does have a point when there are so many possible causes of fire. May I add some more GET A's to Martins list. Get a suitable Fire Extinguisher, Get a Fire Blanket and Get a fire plan and rehearse it. My father was an engineer but also an Auxiliary Fireman and we were bought up to be aware of the risk of fire and it's consequences.

[Guest Bill]

Just a thought: if you are going to buy abroad, would it not be worth at least trying to get it registered abroad too? I was told on a recent visit that the Portuguese road-tax is only €15 per year, and that insurance is much cheaper too. And that also sidesteps alll the red tape involved in importing.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Bill: I believe the only way to 'permanently' register a motorhome abroad would be if one owned a property there (say a holiday home)and could register the vehicle to that address (exactly as happens in the UK). I believe a 'foreign' domestic address would also be needed to obtain comprehensive insurance. It would also be illegal to register the motorhome in (say) Portugal then keep it for extended periods in the UK, due to the current '6-months' rule. Fire blankets/Upholstery: I notice "Which?" June 2005 contains 2 articles - one is headed "Fire blankets no better than tea towels" and the 2nd "It's a dirty world we live in" mentions the perceived health risks of brominated flame-retardants used on domestic upholstery fabrics. Worth a read perhaps... Buying abroad: there are advantages to buying a motorhome outside the UK, but the primary one is the vehicle's normally lower cost. There are also persuasive reasons for not buying abroad, far more significant reasons, in my view, than the possibility of dubious upholstery materials. Failing to recognise the potential disadvantages would be foolish: that's why the 'pros and cons' section of Mel Eastburn's fact-sheets is so useful.

[Guest KEVIN RUSH]

ELAINE HELLO WE BOUGHT OUR VAN IN GERMANY AFTER LOOKING ON INTERNET. mobile.de in our case, found the right van at the right price, e-mailed several times, made arrangement for a visit, they were most helpful and spoke english picked us up from the station as we did not fly. before we went we had arranged with our bank to to a Telegraphic transfer as soon as we had made our mind up, so you would need all their bank details etc. and all that would be required is a telephone call to your bank here to say proceed. this would take 3 working days. they obviously will not let you take the vehicle without receiving the funds at their end. we too looked at hymers, but in the end we decided on a Niessman & Bishoff which is owned by Hymer anyway but we liked several details on our van of which we can send you e-mail if you would like to see it! We said yes, that was the one they took us to the registration place, took care of everything and paid the necessary bill. Most helpful, kind and accomodating, the whole process pain-free! drove home, got home obtained an MOT and insurance certificate on temp plates and chassis no, went to local DVLA with all relevant paperwork given in Germany. Paid normal road Tax, all fine. As far as we were aware as long as the vehicle is 6months old or over 6000kilometres on clock there is no VAT to pay. we have now had HELGA for nearly 3 years and had absolutely no problems at all, will mention that my own personal criteria was for a mercedes engine not a fiat. Best of luck with your search

[Guest Bill]

Derek: I think if you have a friend in (say) Portugal who is willing to let you use their address it should be easy enough. As for being compelled to spend 6 months a year outside the UK: this is a cross I could bear with equanimity. My rig has just been vandalised for the 4th time in 4 weeks.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Kevin: It's gladdening to read a success story. A detail correction. As you obviously know, 'used' motorhomes imported into this country do not attract UK VAT. However, HM Customs & Excise define a "used" vehicle as one that is at least 6 months old AND has covered over 6000 kilometres. Thus, if one imported a 2-year old motorhome with 5000km on the clock, or a 'van 5 months old with 14000km, UK VAT would be payable on each vehicle as they both fall outside HM C&E's "used" classification. There's a low chance of this technical nicety impacting on private UK motorhome importers (who normally will be buying vehicles that are clearly new or clearly used): nevertheless, it's as well to be aware of this potentially expensive pitfall. Bill: Playing 'grey area' games with civil authorities to save a few bucks is a risky sport in my opinion. It's even more risky when insurance companies are involved. Regarding my forthcoming purchase of a motorhome abroad, I recently discussed with the German vendor how it might be possible to avoid temporarily registering the vehicle in Germany (cost about 200 euros), how paying VAT in Germany and the UK might be circumvented and the potential difficulties obtaining comprehensive insurance for the trip from Germany to the UK. The cunning plan was to register the vehicle in this country BEFORE collecting it from the German dealership. This seemed to be perfectly possible as the DVLA's registration process is a paper-handling exercise that does not demand sight of the vehicle. If you've got all the necessary bumph there is no reason to assume the registration application will be rejected. Once a UK registration number had been obtained and the UK VAT been paid, you could obtain comprehensive insurance from a UK company in the normal way, get a set of number-plates made, fly over to Germany with the plates in your luggage, screw them on the motorhome and head for home (or anywhere else for that matter). Of course, when you applied for the UK registration, you would need to be a mite inventive with the information you put on some of the forms and it would probably be as well not to mention to your insurance company that you were doing something pretty odd. Needless to say, I shan't be doing this. I've done a few things in my life that seemed like a smart idea at the time and invariably regretted it later. I'm warier now and, in this case, I can already spot Mr Sod consulting his Law book. (Anyway, if you want to try registering a motorhome abroad to save money, why not pick France as there is no road tax there?)

[Guest T.K]

Elaine, I've just bought a new motorhome from Germany and am extremely pleased with it but (without wishing to insult your intelligence) remember the headlights and speedometer issues involved when purchasing european motorhomes.

[Guest Elaine]

Thankyou for all advice,sorry a bit late busy researching facts and figures.Will be buying March/April 2006,have studied info on motorhomes for a year now the forum has been excellent.Due to info I have read in MMM and others plus forum Hymer was top of the list however,Laika,Euro modil rapido and hobby are now being considered.A visit to York show was very interesting but salesman (brownhills) did not go down to well.When making genuine enquiry to buy we where ushered from one salesman to another as each has different speal,also kept disappearing behind curtained area to work out price,this really does cheese me off.It was wonderful to see all makes of vans though. Your right about rip off Britain.

[Guest martin h]

Try Palmowski in Germany, they did me proud! They have an ad in this months MMM. An ugly ad, but don,t be put off they,re very good . Check out the web site . Click the lists on the left side to view different makes .Neto price means the price to us to take away the vehicle! Ask for Julien he won,t do any curtain dodgeing.