Are there too many M/Home builders?

[John Keats]

Before buying ours from new 2 years ago I spent much time viewing these forums and reading others problems, plus many magazines on the subject.

 

Based on show room visits, readers comments regarding faults on their vehicles, and unhelpfull sellers I ordered accordingly.

 

There have been no serious problems and I dont expect there to be any.

 

It does seem there are many vehicles that have horrendous faults (like the Laika 400 in this forum today)

 

It all sounds like the British car industry some years ago. One problem now being that personal skills are lacking to rectify the faults.

 

Or is it that the buyers themselves have less skill to adjust there own vehicles?

[billbaillie]

Although I read most of the posts on this site I don't normally reply to them as I feel I lack experience in most cases. However, this post caught my eye and I think I can contribute this time.

 

We read the magazines, studied the web and visited numerous retailers over a period of 2 years and still couldn’t decide what we wanted. In the end we bought a cheap old ‘van in good nick to try the ‘sport’ to see if motor caravanning was actually for us. Having had the old gal for about 6 months, we are absolutely hooked and use it at least once a week for day trips, plus less regular weekends/weeks away etc. We are now looking for a new/nearly new van and expect it will take us about a year to finally select the right one for us.

 

Back to the points you raise:

 

Are there too many M/Home builders?

I don’t think so. The more there are, the more choice we have and hopefully the more competition to keep prices reasonable.

 

One problem now being that personal skills are lacking to rectify the faults?

I’m not convinced that we Brits lack the technical skills. We do, I believe, lack good management and suffer from appalling Quality Control. M/Home builders and retailers should invest in better management training and vastly improve their quality control procedures. Most problems buyers experience with new ‘vans are eventually rectified; it’s the hassle they have to go through to get a result that is unacceptable. Also, a M/Home should never be handed over to a customer until every minute detail has been fully checked and tested.

 

Or is it that the buyers themselves have less skill to adjust there own vehicles?

Possibly. However, they shouldn’t need such skills. They use their ‘vans for pleasure and don’t want to carry a full tool kit every time they use it. Very few people service their own cars now as they have become so full of technology and automatic management systems. I believe the same probably applies to ‘vans.

 

Well, that’s my twopence worth.

Cheers

:-S

[RonB]

John

 

From the wording of your post I have the impression that this is your first motorhome? If this is the case I congratulate you on your success in avoiding problems first time out.

 

However, do not make the mistake in thinking that because you have a 'good-un' this time it will be the same next time from the same manufacturer. I say this as our previous German motorhome was faultless as for as build quality goes whilst our present one, from the same manufacturer, can only be described as rubbish.

 

There are those who will advise others to go for a foreign make, and by and large I would not disagree, but it doesn't always work as your comment on the Laika proves. Still others will only buy Hymers but again I could point you towards their owners who would disagree.

 

I would agree with your point about the lack of personal skills. Nothing is perfect but I am sure that there would be far less adverse comment aired if the after care departments could be improved by about a thousand percent.

 

Ron

[Clive]

Bills comparison to the car industry 20 (or more) years back is spot on. There are very few unreliable cars nowadays compared to 20 years back.

It seems according to the car press surveys that the Japs produce the most reliable motors and the French the least. Germans somewhere above the middle but at a price.

Motorhomes tend to be block built rather than on genuine flowlines.

The volumes of any particular model made fall far short of that required to justify full flowline manufacture. Add to this the list of options that us customers now expect and you come to the view that the batch size for any specific build ends up at 1 or dealers are left to fit the options.

But I would agree that the level of final inspection and testing by the manufacturer falls far short of that required and likewise the dealers are the same. I remember a customer who went to pick up his near fifty grands worth of brand new motorhome who was given the full walk and talk round, the vehicle was handed over and the bankers draft waived good bye to. Only to find on attempting to drive away that the front seat belts were not bolted in to the seats and that the alarm/central locking only set the alarm. The central locking bits were not even fitted!

 

I still maintain that it is very benefitial to be a good DIYer if you have a motorhome. Many of the problems that crop up are less hassle to sort yourself that to have to return the MH back to the dealer. The biggest advantage of having these skills is when something falls off or fails while you are on holiday a long way from home. But you also have to keep one eye on the terms of any warranty you may have.

 

Back to the first question then, "Are there too many M/Home builders"

It depends on what you want to achieve.

 

If you want to build motorhomes in volume on proper flow lines with the disciplines this brings then the answer is YES.

If you want competition to drive price down and provide more choice then the answer is NO.

 

This debate could go on for ages!

 

C.

 

 

[chas]

The purchase price of a new motorhome has around £1000+ added to it for delivery ,number plates, and tax, + PDI. Now its this PDI which is the trouble, because 9 times out of 10 its not done as it should be. How else can customers drive away, with things falling off, not working properly, and plain bad design and workmanship. It amazes me when someone spends say £40,000 + and they find a bad fault, they sing the praises of the dealer for attending to it, without fuss, why the dam did the dealer not spot the fault in the expensive PDI. Why dont the dealers send these poorly made vans back to the manufacturer when they are found to have faults, is it because they are worried of thier franchise ? You pay for a vehicle to be in as perfect condition as possible and you can end up having it patched up by a jack of all trades at the dealers. chas

[John Keats]

RonB

 

Yes this is the first M/Home and I've no intention of buying another, I reckon to use it for 10 years then almost give it away. I avoid shows as I don't need to see any others.

 

We've had several in the USA so I suppose I had ideas on what I liked and for what purpose.

 

It took around ten years looking before finding the best one for us, and I'm now restricted to 3500kgs.

 

We've lived in the same house for 53 years, like the M/Home it suits us so why change?

 

Many M/H's looked at were awfull, the interior layouts were unfriendly, with grab handles positioned at the wrong angle and snags to catch your clothes on at the entrance.

 

 

[Ralph]

chas - 2007-05-28 10:57 PM

 

It amazes me when someone spends say £40,000 + and they find a bad fault, they sing the praises of the dealer for attending to it, without fuss, why the dam did the dealer not spot the fault in the expensive PDI. Why dont the dealers send these poorly made vans back to the manufacturer when they are found to have faults

 

It is a fact of life that we don't really appreciate dealers etc. unless something goes wrong.

 

If the dealer rejected your new purchase and told you that they were unable to deliver on time you would then complain about them.

 

If, on the other hand they did a proper PDI and fixed all the faults before delivery, you would praise the manufacturer for producing such a faultless van.

 

But when they send it out with faults and then promptly and efficiently fix them we are full of praise for the dealership.

 

People only remember the ones who fix their problems.

 

[Bill]

There is something to be said for buying second-hand.

 

Apart from all the money you save, somebody else has had the "pleasure" of dealing with the teething troubles.

 

[chas]

Ralph- If a dealer told me he had sent back a van I had ordered from him because because it was not fit for purpose, and would cause me a lot of anxiety and time getting it fixed I would thank him for his services. The point I was making is if you pay good money for someone to check over your expensive purchase for any problems, and things are wrong when you get said van home, they have done a poor job , and taken your PDI money by default, Its bad service. If an appliance goes wrong 2 months later, thats another thing as you well know. chas

[Ralph]

Not disagreeing with you Chas. I didn't mean any of my remarks to be taken personally, just generally.

But I wonder, if the dealer did send it back and received my thanks would he also get my money? I would reckon he was a good dealer that I'd like to do business with but that he sold a dodgy brand so I would possibly look elsewhere.

It might be nice if they skipped the PDI altogether and just gave you some of your money back for doing it yourself.

Must go, I've just noticed a flock of pigs flying past...

[Thai Bry]

John

I don't think that it's a case of too many M/H manufacturers, it's like someone else has said about the car indstry many years ago. There are different makes but look under the "Corporate" banner and you will find different makes belonging to the same group of companies. Each aiming for their own niche of customers.
But like our current van, we looked at other vans within the Hymer group, before going back to the Hymer name.We did become confused as to where each so called brand was aiming at which part of the market. We looked at Nisch & Biff, Laika, Clou, Arto and went back to what we know.

We've been very lucky with all five of our vans. 2 used & 3 new ones. 2 British made and 3 German made. Going from our personnel experience, now that we have our last(hopefully - I say) one, we will not go back to a British made one now.We must be one of the few people to be totally happy with our Hymer.

It's the case of making sure that all is OK before departing with your hard earned cash. Like people have said before, there should be no need to wax lyrical about a dealer because they've fixed something on a new van.The fault should have been spotted in the PDI procedures.This is borne from my own experience in sales, and so now at any hand over of any vehicle, I go through things with the sales person, ticking off my on own check list. If not right, then a note is made to fix it before we take delivery. This puts the onus back on them, as they are on commission, and this will not be paid to them until the van has been accepted by you the customer.So if it's hitting them in the pocket, it will just focus their mind on what needs to be fixed before they get their commission.

Thai

[Mel E]

There are actually very few motorhome builders, but a lot of factories. This is partly because motorhomes are so large that they are most economically built as near as possible to the point of consumption, consistent with the labour also being fairly cheap.

 

Also, many of what appear to be separate manufacturers are not. Remember how the same basic car or van still appears in various guises? It's the same with motorhomes. For example, Chausson and Challenger are built in the same factory and have always been just brandings - they were the origins of Trigano as motorhome manufacturers. As another example, LMC (Lord Munsterland Caravan), TEC and Geist (all owned by Hymer) are also all built in the same factory.

 

So just like cars, it's now very difficult to tell where your motorhome might be built just from the brand name on it. For example, the French Trigano Group owns factories in the UK, Italy, Germany, France, Spain and Poland. So your new Autotrail may well be built in Poland or Italy, and your Autostar in Spain.

 

They own the following 'brands', many of which were acquired as separate manufacturers:

 

Chausson, Challenger, Autostar, CI, Roller, Benimar, Eura Mobil, Karmann, Autotrail, Arca, Trigano

 

as well as some of the leading caravan brands (including Sterkemann and Caravelair). As well as some 19,000 motor caravans, it sold over 100,000 trailers in 2006 and some 8,000 caravans. It also has a major stake in the supply of accessories. They aim to build 30,000 vehicles by 2009 and their largest factory will be almost wholly automated, with automatic maufacture of floors, walls and roofs.

 

Since they all also fit the same parts (Seitz windows & blinds, Smev cookers, Thetford loos, Truma heaters, Dometic fridges, and so on), there is not a lot of difference between the various 'brands'. And it's usually with these bought-in parts (or their fitting into the overall assembly) that the problems arise - just as, in the heyday of the British-owned motor industry, it was always the bought-in starter motor, alternator, etc., that went wrong. (I once had a brand new Hillman Hunter with Holbay engine that had no Rootes Group problems at all - drove like a dream. But in 15 months it had 4 new alternators, 6 new starter motors, 7 replacement brake servo units, 2 replacement petrol tanks and a replacement driver's seat cover; only the last item was made by Rootes, all the others being from, in each case, the same batch of faulty parts or having a faulty design.)

 

A few motorhome brands, however, do stick out, but you pay premium prices for them: brands such as Esterel (owned by Rapido), Le Voyageur and Frankia (both owned by Pilote along with down-market Mooveo) and Carthago. These have very similar layouts to the medium-priced models, use the same kit of parts, but you pay about 50% more, hopefully to have them built better.

 

I use Trigano as an example, but the Hymer Group has a very similar approach, owning Neismann+Bischoff, Laika, LMC, TEC, Geist, Burstner, and several others. The Italian Sea Group owns many Italian 'brands', having been created by venture capitalists with the merger of Mobilvetta and Elnagh and the acquisition of McLouis; it then spawned the 'brandings' of Miller (built in the Mobilvetta factory), Joint, and so on.

 

So the conclusion is that choice is not as wide as you think, the assembled 'bits' are mostly from a very restricted list of 'bits' suppliers, the layouts are monotonously the same (how many ways can you lay out a 2-person low profile, for example?) and to guarantee build quality, you can pay a lot more and still have some problems.

 

Mel E

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[Brian Kirby]

However, I think it fair to add that, having regard to the sheer number of Dometic fridges, Truma heaters, Thetford toilets and Seitz windows etc etc installed across the whole industry, these items themsleves actually contribute remarkably few faults.  Some suffer so called infantile failures but most, once they get beyond the first few weeks/months of use, just go for years without problem.

The problems with motorhomes almost all seem to relate to poor detailed design and bad assembly.  Badly installed fridges, in poorly detailed enclosures, cannot function properly.  The fridge may well be flawless, but it can never attain an adequate temperature in hot weather if its ventilation is badly executed.  Truma heaters can't deliver their heat evenly, or efficiently, if the duct runs are overly convoluted, or there are insufficient outlets, or inadequate return air paths, and so on. 

Water ingress seems less prevalent than it was, but too many panel joints are badly sited, and merely sealed with gobs of mastic, instead of being properly designed joints.  Holes for cables sealed with dollops of sealant, instead of being routed via cable glands, rooflights merely stuck to flat aluminium sheet with adhesive sealants, corner joints penetrated by sheradized screws with just a plastic cover strip, I could go on!  All these design deficiencies could be compensated for if the workforce were exemplary craftsmen with the time to do the job properly, but in one or other of these respects, it seems they fall short.  The mastic seam has the odd gap, the odd screw gets left out, etc etc, as the hapless owner of the van discovers - after the water stains have appeared inside!

These are problems primarily of design, but also of supervision during production.  Bought in components can, and should, be tested before installation, or tested and certificated before despatch from the supplier.  Serial numbers should be logged against individual vans, quality assurance inspections carried out at each stage of construction etc etc.  This, it seems to me, is where most of our collective problems arise, and this seems, again to me, to point very clearly at the motorhome manufacturers/ converters/ assemblers, or whatever they are to be called, as the main culprits.  It is their day job, and they need to do it better!

[Vernon B]

Wonderful quote from Brian

 

"Water ingress seems less prevalent than it was, but too many panel joints are badly sited, and merely sealed with gobs of mastic, instead of being properly designed joints. Holes for cables sealed with dollops of sealant, instead of being routed via cable glands, rooflights merely stuck to flat aluminium sheet with adhesive sealants, corner joints penetrated by sheradized screws with just a plastic cover strip, I could go on! All these design deficiencies could be compensated for if the workforce were exemplary craftsmen with the time to do the job properly, but in one or other of these respects, it seems they fall short. The mastic seam has the odd gap, the odd screw gets left out, etc etc, as the hapless owner of the van discovers - after the water stains have appeared inside!"

 

I certainly recognise your catalogue of woes Brian and actually wished you'd gone on to complete it because it would have made a useful checklist for future reference! Not sure if I agree about improvements in water ingress though - is there any data on this? Also not sure if you're right to point the finger at the workforce. The way I see it all these things are a direct result of poor design and bad management and even the very best skilled craftsmen would left floundering.

 

But to my main point and the original question "Are there too many M/home builders?"

 

Your comments made me think - hey perhaps there aren't enough! What we have at the moment is an industry that simply follows the leader - and mostly a poor leader at that. All the floor plans, most of the body styling, and the majority of the construction methods appear to come from the same stable. Wouldn't it be nice if someone came along to break the mould? Someone who could revolutionise the industry with totally new designs, materials and construction methods and someone who could offer superb quality and reliability at affordable prices - bit of a mix of Lotus Engineering, Toyota, and Dell Computers.

 

Vernon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Vernon B - 2007-05-30 4:37 PM ...............Not sure if I agree about improvements in water ingress though - is there any data on this?

Also not sure if you're right to point the finger at the workforce. The way I see it all these things are a direct result of poor design and bad management and even the very best skilled craftsmen would left floundering.

But to my main point and the original question "Are there too many M/home builders?" Your comments made me think - hey perhaps there aren't enough! .................. Vernon

Vernon, with apologies for the abridged quotes.

However, in response to your main points, I'd just say this.  Evidence for reduced incidences of water ingress?  Well, according to the Caravan Club, this has slipped down the register of "favourite complaints".  So, on that basis, I assume things have probably got better, although the pessimists will no doubt chorus that it could equally mean other things have got worse!  Yer pays yer money!

I don't think I did, really, point the finger at the workforce.  I said it was mostly poor design for which skilled craftsmen, given time, could probably compensate.  However, it seems either they aren't sufficiently skilled, or they aren't given time.  Since the management employs the designers, and the workforce, and sets the production schedules, I know who I think is responsible!  But what do accountants actually know about assembling motorhomes?  Armed with that much knowledge, how can they choose the best designers or workers?

Too many builders?  Well, yes, I think there are.  Mel is right, of course, many "builders" are part of much greater groups.  However, each subsidiary will have its managers, directors, foremen, production planners, sales staff and managers, cleaners, dealers, shows and exhibitions to finance, etc etc practically extending to infinity and just pushing up costs.  When too many people compete in business, the result tends to be proliferating overheads which, despite competition laws, tend to result in rising prices, and the creation of "unofficial" price fixing cartels. 

I wouldn't want to see too few competitors, but at present there do seem to me to be too many brands emanating from too many factories, so a bit of rationalisation might work very well in the consumer's interests.  Why should a dodgy Liaka (or whatever) be passed off merely as a Liaka, when in reality it is a Hymer (or whatever) made in Italy (or wherever)?  (Yes, I know Liaka was an Italian firm, and that they are still made in Italy: however they are now owned by Hymer who don't seem to have successfully introduced their full QA procedures into the Italian factory.)  If the name of the parent was rather more prominent on the product, I do think quality might gain a bit sharper focus, and we might get better motorhomes because it would then be far easier to compare brand A with brand B for value overall.

[Vic]

Ouch! Does this mean that there are too many 'Friday afternoon' builds? I bought my V reg Compass Drifter recently. The inside can't be faulted. Comfortable, well laid out as in 'U' shaped lounge, decent wet room, great cooker and fridge. All seems to be in working order. So is the answer to be, buy a used vehicle? Is it possible that new vans don't have the same care and attention that was given some years back? Obviously we can't all buy a used van. Somebody must buy a new one at some stage. I looked at many vans at the recent Peterborough show. I have to say that I was disappointed at what was available in comparison with my Compass. Horses for courses perhaps.

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

The creation of fewer, bigger groups should have a positive effect on costs, though not necessarily on competition.

 

When an 'independent' gets taken over, though the MD and Marketing Director may stay (more likely be replaced by people on lower`salaries), most of 1st level management go - their jobs subsumed to Central Purchasing and the like. Of course, the production team usually survices, giving the bigger group a wider variety of factories, allowing both specialisation and, at the same time, the ability to build popular and low cost models closer to the buyer.

 

Competition? It's too soon to tell. While the European market continues to grow at its present rate, any competition is really illusory.

 

Have a look at Trigano as an exmaple - it's share price has more than quadrupled in this century.

 

Mel E

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