Vested Interest.

[BadBob]

Found your forum during a Google search, the Brownhills threads interest me because I am yet another person who has been a victim of their business culture. I have read so many threads describing the problems customers have experienced. Does anyone realise how stressful and upsetting spending your life savings on something so expensive and it turns out to be be unusable can be and the effect this has on a persons health?

 

[Dave Newell]

One of the problems here is that, in general, only the people who have had poor service post anything about it. I'm not trying to suggest you haven't had bad service or that Brownhills and all the other dealers who get named from time to time haven't done things wrong but it is a fact that there are many people who are happy with the service they've had. I know of one couple from Devon who won't go anywhere else but Brownhills, why? because they're satisfied that they get what they want.

 

D.

[Mel E]

I echo what Dave has said. The reason there appear to be so many complaints about Brownhills is a combination of:

 

- Brownhills are the UK's biggest dealer - they must account for over 30% of new motorhome sales. Hence, even a 1% disappointment rate gives 15 complainers a year.

 

- expectations that are just too high. I'm not saying that there are not buyers with genuine and major problems, but, as this forum has shown over the years, what is a major problem to one person is a minor inconvenience to someone else.

 

I'm not saying Brownhills are perfect and, personally, I would never buy anything as complex as a motorhome from any super-sized dealer: I want a dealer who treats me as something rather special because he only sells 2 or 3 hundred a year.

 

Mel E

====

[Brian Kirby]

There are two points here, Bob, are there not?

One concerns Brownhills, and their success record with satisfied customers.  I think Dave and Mel have eloquently answered that.

The other question concerns the stress the buyer experiences when his new motorhome doesn't perform as he expected.  You ask if anyone realises the magnitude of this stress.  The answer, resoundingly, is yes, of course. 

Almost the whole of this forum concerns matters relating to bits of motorhomes that aren't working properly, and some of those are very emotional posts, quite a few among them from those who have recently purchased.  However, it matters not, really, whether the failure is to a new, used, or long owned motorhome, or whether it was bought from Brownhills or another dealer.  The frustrations of having something one can't presently use are palpable.  The main point of this forum, is to try to help people to overcome their difficulties, to get their problems resolved, and get them back on track.  So yes, we do understand the anxiety, but we also try to suggest ways to remove it.  That, I think, is more constructive than mere sympathy.  The obvious question though, is can we help you?

[rogerp]

Hi Bob ,

 

I've used Brownhills Cannock for my 2 MHs (having just purchased my new one from them). And this is despite being treated very very badly by their Newark site.

 

I cant say that everything is rosy as there have been some issues that I personally find irritating and should not be happening in a Customer driven world.

 

But they had the MH I wanted at a deal I was happy with.

 

Yes there are some problems but nothing thats stopping me using the MH and yes its going to take 6-8 weeks to resolve. But I cant individually do anything about that , its the world Motorhome dealers operate in and to a degree dictate.

 

I could have quite easily at handover said sorry not fit for the purpose I'll come back when the work is done or walk away fully. How many people have the bottle to do that when they've probably waited many weeks for their pride and joy and put down a fair chunk of hard earned?

 

They know that and probably because of that they dont think they need to change.

 

I did go to some of the smaller dealers out there but frankly they could not match the deal or the van in the end. Is this a false economy? Time will tell.

 

I only need to go to an approved MH retailer for a habitation service , and I'm pretty sure I can find someone who will do the work for me and I bet a lot cheaper.

 

Thats probably where Brownhills could be made to suffer is by people bypassing the service departments. They've clearly invested heavily in this area and if its not being used for annual services or accessory fitting , how long will they tolerate that.

 

Point of fact , they quoted nearly £400 to fit a reversing camera which they could not do for at least 3 weeks. I got it done for a fraction of that costs and in a matter of days (plug here...thanks to Dave Newell!!).

 

Money lost to them and I've told them that also!! (amazing how things change when the know they're loosing out)

 

To end , go with your gut instincts , ask questions even if it makes them feel uncomfortable. Its your money you dont have to spend it with them and let them know.

 

I did and they reacted favourably in my case.

 

Good look , hope you find a good MH and a get looked after how you wish to be looked after , we're all different after all!!!!

[crinklystarfish]

Whilever the motorhome buying public puchase shoddily made vehicles dealers will happily sell them. I'm absolutely staggered how many people still hand over tens of thousands for something slung together.

 

Much of the problem can be averted by only buying products from manufacturers who have stringent quality control and defend their reputation for build quality.

 

If we all put this to the fore of our minds, rather than the fact that the colour of the upholstery might be soooo last season, we'd drive the market more effectively.

 

I spend much of my time at shows scrabbling about under the vehicles, poking in gas lockers and looking at things like the pride in running wiring looms to the boiler installation. People look at me like I'm crazy, some dealers look nervous; I come away knowing what I need to know.

 

There are some well made vans to be had, but many are crap. Buying a crap one is like leading with your chin...

[Guest peter]

And I bet most of the crap ones are made in Britain.

[michele]

Me in BROWNHILLS DEFENCE well theres a first for everything

 

At the show we bumped into a sales man very nice man down to earth no crap if you can believe that. Anyway after having coffee and a discussion with him where buy I told him in a very direct manner that we didn't and were not impressed with Brownhills after sales service .

 

he said that instead of selling them he had sometimes to deal with the problems that the after sales couldn't deal with ! i said are Brownhills that big that they can afford this bad publicity .

He replied no and it is being dealt with and that they have had meetings and they are aware of there short comings .

 

glad to know that they are taking it seriously it has restored my confidence so here's hoping that they are going to employ enough staff and try harder with customers after all thats all you want really someone who is seen to be trying to get it right

 

[Mel E]

Peter,

 

Actually the number of motorhomes made in Britain is quite small (under 15% of the European total). There are a lot more European-built crap ones than UK-built. But we British just love to self-knock, so we assume that anything built on the Continent is superb and anything built in the UK is rubbish. Definitely NOT true.

 

Crinkly,

 

You say: "Much of the problem can be averted by only buying products from manufacturers who have stringent quality control and defend their reputation for build quality." Don't you think the major UK firms have all of those things? Of course they have. It no more means they're perfect than it does Continental makes.

 

Mel E

====

[davenewellhome]

I think the poor after sales service that so many people seem to experience stems from a number of problems within an organisation:

 

1, lack of communication; if the sales staff don't understand what the customer is really complaining about they cannot then pass on the information to the service department who in turn cannot pass it on to the shop floor staff to rectify.

2, lack of product knowledge; if the sales staff don't use the vehicles they sell they are not as likely to fully understand how some of the equipment therein functions. If they don't understand this much you're on a hiding to nothing from the off.

3, Over demand for workshop time; if the workshop calendar is booked up fully then you're going to have to wait to get your 'van booked in for repair/service. Taking on more staff is not necessarily a solution as it might well be a seasonal surge of work that will then tail off and leave them overstaffed. Also most workshops have as many staff as the workshop space will allow, taking on three new fitters won't help anyone if there's no space for them to work in.

4, Lack of interest from the shop floor; All too often I see shop floor staff to whom it is only a job, i.e. a means of generating income. This usually means that employee has no interest in whether or not the customer is happy, he/she just wants to pick up his/her pay packet on Friday.

5, Related to 4, shop floor staff who feel "wronged" by "the company". This could be because they feel they ought to be payed more or they should finish work at midday on Friday or they just have a "them and us" attitude and lets be honest here folks, don't most of British shop floor staff have this attitude?

 

D.

[crinklystarfish]

Hi Mel,

 

I never stated any preference for nationality, there are some great British 'vans and crap Euros, and vice-versa. I happen to have a German, but don't particularly worry about nationality, just quality.

 

Steve

[Mel B]

crinklystarfish - 2007-06-15 7:33 PM

 

Hi Mel,

 

... I happen to have a German, but don't particularly worry about nationality, just quality.

 

Steve

 

Whatever turns you on Stevie baby! (lol)

[BadBob]

Hi all,

 

in essence, should people that purchase Motorhomes be less entitled to excellent product quality etc. than say people that purchase vacuum cleaners? I'm sure the 'Brownhills defenders' would expect such a product to function correctly straight out of the box.

 

Does any one know if the standards in Europe are similarly low to what we get here in the UK?

 

Bob.

[davenewellhome]

Yes Bob, but then a vacuum cleaner is a lot less complicated than any motorhome, all the components come from one manufacturer for a start whereas your average motorhome's components come from multiple suplly sources.

 

I agree that we should be able to get problems sorted quickly and efficiently but as I said earlier there are numerous reasons why this ain't the case.

 

What were/are your specific problems?

 

D.

[chas]

I agree with Mel E that there are good reliable British made vans, I have one! perhaps there is a certain amount of snobbery about purchasing a continental van assuming that "they know how to build them" The brand Elddis by the Explorer group would perhaps be low on the list of many buyers, but I can honestly say mine from new as been all that I wanted it to be. In over 2years from new every thing as work as it should and looks like it will continue to do so, and this from a van which is classed as a "entry level"model. Go for fancy design and equipment so complex that its just waiting to give trouble and you may well be courting disaster. We searched for about 2yrs to settle on the van that ticked nearly all our boxes, and on looking round the shows many of the continental designs frankly left us baffled and amused particulary the price tags. chas

[crinklystarfish]

I'm with Bob on this one. With some exceptions, including British and Non-British manufacturers / converters, the build quality of motorhomes is not good. It's clearly in the interest of manufacturers to get them out of the door as quickly as possible, the trouble is that when bad build quality leads to the inevitable fault, retailers like Brownhills find themselves in the firing line.

 

'Vans are expensive and the buying public are entitled to standards. You only have to look through the forums or any addition of MMM, or similar, to see that even demonstrators are often riddled with faults and things dropping off them! If manufacturers are willing to give these to the press, what does that say of the build quality of the stuff they'll be delivering to Brownhills next week?

 

Yes they are relatively complex, but so are many consumer items. That's not a reason not to take pride in the build and minimise the possibility of faults by simply ensuring wiring looms don't chafe, things are properly bonded, sealant is carefully applied, hardware is fit for purpose etc.

 

It's a simple fact that some manufacturers have pride in their build and encounter fewer problems with customer complaints as a result.

 

I stand by the point that while people buy from shoddy manufacturers, be that through Brownhills or whoever, the shoddy manufacturers will continue to pump out crap.

 

Just so there is no more misread confusion, I don't think it matters a jot who builds 'vans, or where they are built, what is important is how they are built.

 

If people voted with their wallets, standards would improve.

[Brian Kirby]

BadBob - 2007-06-15 9:00 PM Hi all, in essence, should people that purchase Motorhomes be less entitled to excellent product quality etc. than say people that purchase vacuum cleaners? I'm sure the 'Brownhills defenders' would expect such a product to function correctly straight out of the box. Does any one know if the standards in Europe are similarly low to what we get here in the UK? Bob.

I'm not sure what Bob's question really is here.  Brownhills merely sells what others make.  Legally, Brownhills is liable for the quality of what it sells, however, it does not build, so is not primarily responsible for the build quality. 

Should they then sell badly made vans?  Well, like all businesses, they exist primarily to make money.  So, if we, the buying public, want to buy the badly made vans, Brownhills would lose a lot of money if they refused to sell them.  If the damage to their profits from selling the stinkers is greater than the benefit, they'll stop selling.  If we stop buying the stinkers, they'll stop selling.  The final analysis is that all dealerships only say in business by making profits.  They are not motorhome consultants, they are sellers of motorhomes. 

In the absence of unbiased knowledgable guidance, and allowing for the practical limitations on what the magazines can really say about the various vans, each of us needs to become our own consultancy on quality, reliability, and habitability.  It's called experience, and it was long ago noted that whereas it is the best school, it is also the one that charges the highest fees!

So, back to Bob's questions.  Should motorhomes all work first time?  Yes, of course they should. 

Are there Brownhills defenders on here?  No, just sad people who are realsitic about what is likely to be achieved in the quest for motorhome perfection! 

Are standards better in Europe?  There is some evidence that the Germans manufacture to a more consistent quality than most other European countries - but they still have their "off days". 

Are dealers better elsewhere?  Again, it seems the Germans are that bit more thorough than the rest.  The main differences seem to be lower overheads, possibly from cheaper land, possibly from greater turnover, possibly from greater efficiency, possible from better educated and trained staff, possibly a bit from all of these. 

The net result is that others in Europe do complain about poor service here and there - but at least they buy their vans at much lower cost that we do, so maybe some of their criticisms are muted by the reduced "hit" on their wallets!  And why are vans so much more expensive in UK than the rest of Europe?  Because that is what we think we have to pay.  Are we stuck with that?  No, because we too can buy in Europe, and benefit from the resulting lower prices and, if we do our homework properly, better build quality and more attentive dealers.  Will we then get perfection?  Er, no!

[chas]

I dont know if its me, but as far as I can see if a dealer sells a customer an item ( a motorhome) and part of that sale a large fee is taken not only for the delivery but the PDI. That means it should be INSPECTED to establish that it is of merchantable quality, the customer as paid for this service, the money goes to the dealer, NOT to the manufacturer, if things are not working/leak/damaged ect than that PDI is at fault ie the dealer is at fault. If that particular dealer sells 30% of motorhomes sold in the U.K and lets customers down they should be ashamed of themselves. As Bob says it can cause untold stress when you find out you have bought a lemon.

 

It boils down to shoddy service, a could not care less attitude, we will worry about that if they bring it back mentality. To my way of thinking any dealer doing that does not deserve customers . To my mind if a dealer finds faults at the PDI stage, they have 2 choices , to reject the van, or rectify the faults BEFORE handover to me thats good business practice. chas

[Vernon B]

BadBob - 2007-06-15 9:00 PM

 

{in essence, should people that purchase Motorhomes be less entitled to excellent product quality etc. than say people that purchase vacuum cleaners?}

 

I accept the principle here but perhaps not the example Bob - Have you read any Which reports on vacuum cleaners recently? - they're probably the worst performing/least reliable domestic appliance.

 

What strikes me, having been a contributor to this forum for a few months, is that if a market researcher read a typical cross section of threads he or she would be bound to conclude that there's something significantly wrong with the state of the Motorhome industry - and by that I mean both the manufacturer/dealer set up. What you have here - on a continuing and consistent basis - are the outpourings of customers whose reasonable expectations are not being met by a considerable margin.

 

Unfortunately I don't think this can be explained away by the point that "we only hear from people who have a problem". If there really was a majority out there with "pride in ownership" boy would we be hearing about it! And the whole "tone" of the forum would be far far more positive.

 

Hopefully, as mentioned earlier, some dealers like Brownhills are at last beginning to acknowledge that something needs to be done. There are plenty of examples of excellent service in the motor and electronics industries for them to copy - if they're only smart enough to take a look outside their own little world.

 

Vernon

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Chas

I'm not disagreeing with you for one minute.  However, as you say, what you are talking about is what ought to happen.  Of course the dealer ought to put right what is wrong before it is delivered.  He ought to do many things, but the problem is that, all too frequently, he doesn't.  It isn't just one firm, it is almost any firm that encounders a really bad van backed by an indifferent manufacturer.  From some posts on here, it is quite clear that some vans have substantial manufacturing defects on delivery.  Reject vans?  Well, the odd dealer might, but it would be a high risk strategy.  There's no Sale of Goods Act etc protection between dealer and manufacturer, and the manufacturer can always attract another dealer.  Sudden lack of supply?  End of dealer, I'd guess.  All those disappointed customers, all blaming the failed dealer and not the manufacturer? 

What I'm trying to say is that we have to be realistic about what we can, actually, expect the dealer to do, and then go shopping accordingly.  If we set off expecting everthing to be as it should, we're almost bound to end up disappointed.  They're not crooks (at least not most of them) although they may occasionally be stupid, rude, inconsiderate and a lot of other things they shouldn't be. 

Most of the staff of most of the firms have never set foot inside a motorhome outside a showroom.  A lot are on commission.  Many seem to have little, or only the most basic, grasp of how the thing works, some can spout the technical words, but rather fewer know what the words really mean.  Design is market led, meaning what sells is what is popular.  Motorhomes are designed to appeal, to allow you to dream, and to believe you can "live the dream".  Endless sunny days, perfect locations with wonderful views and no one else around, and the dear little grandchildren in tow.  GET REAL!  These things aren't satisfactory just because the curtains look pretty!

We have to be our own experts, to see past the manufacturer's overstated twaddle, beyond the salesman's patter, and look at where the grey water outlet is, at how high up, and what size, the gas bottle locker is, at how big the battery is, at whether you can actually sit on the bleedin' Thetford - without needing your legs amputated!  All those things they never tell you, but which make the difference between a van that works well, and one that just looks well.

Is there a decent warranty?  Does it cover water ingress?  Do you have to go back to a franchised dealer every year to keep it alive (or twice a year in the case of some friends' Liaka!  Water ingress check every six months??  What is it sealed with - duct tape?!)  These are the things we have to teach ourselves because if we don't, we'll end up out of pocket and very unhappy.  For that, despite all the moral obligations we may (correctly) heap upon the dealers, we have no one but ourselves to blame.  And even then, even after we've done all we can to eliminate the dross, some poor soul will still get the one made on a Friday, and have to trail back to a recalcitrant dealer and badger him into action. 

The point is, however, that if we've done our homework on the manufacturer, the van, and the dealer, we should have reduced the risk of that trip being needed, and we shouldn't have quite such a struggle when we arrive.  Ideal?  Far from it: but far, far, better than the alternative.

[saruman]

hi with several posts on forums i would never buy new fron brownhills

in my opuion they like to sell the units then bugger the after sales

 

so simple DONT BUY FROM!!!!!!!!!!!!

>:-( >:-)

 

saruman

[chas]

Brian- All I can say in response to your post is that you mention that these rogue dealers are not crooks, well what would you call someone who has taken your money to do a service "PDI" that is not carried out, in my book it amounts to taking money under false pretences, a criminal act, a thing a crook would do.

 

It should also be remembered that motorcaravanning is becoming more popular and many new customers are perhaps spending a good portion of their lifes savings on a dream, they do not have the expertise to know what makes a good van and are hoping the dealer will guide them to what they need, not send them away with a load faulty rubbish, it must be shattering for them.

 

Its so easy imo for this not to happen, its to provide good service for moneys paid. Also imo a major dealer who buys many vans should and would have the clout to tell suspect manufacturers to get their act together or else, because if not, all this putting right of faults is not only costing the dealer money, its ruining their reputation and that is priceless.

 

I also feel that there is a feeling that customers should not expect perfection, well why not, it should be demanded as a right, for every thing to work as intended, and to quote a much used phrase, fit for purpose.

 

chas

[michele]

Ok OK OK whats a PDI pretty please ..........

[chas]

Hi Michele- Good Morning, What does PDI stand for, well it could stand for pretty dammed irresponsible :D and many other things the moderator would not allow. PDI means Pre Delivery Inspection, and that requires a dealer on accepting the van from the manufacturer to check it over for the customer. This would normaly require a good wash down, a thorough clean out inside, checking everything has arrived with the van such as carpeting/shower mats and that all the systems are working correctly as intended. Checking that there is no damage anywhere around and inside the van. It basicly means preparing the van for the customer so that they do not have any reason to find faults when they get it home and start using it. Unfortunatly some dealers regard it as checking the vehicle has an engine and a wheel at each corner. Regards chas

[Brian Kirby]

chas - 2007-06-16 10:47 PM Brian- All I can say in response to your post is that you mention that these rogue dealers are not crooks, ........................... I also feel that there is a feeling that customers should not expect perfection, well why not, it should be demanded as a right, for every thing to work as intended, and to quote a much used phrase, fit for purpose. chas

Chas

To the first point, that is not at all what I said.  What I said, in relation to dealers in general, was that most of them were not crooks.  Not the same thing at all.

Regarding the second point: then I'm afraid you're destined to spend your life a disappointed man!  A product that is "Fit for purpose" will be a long way short of perfection.  All that means is that it is not so bad that it cannot be used as intended, as determined by a Court.  I think we should be getting better than that! 

However, "perfect" really, is, meaningless.  It is a absolute, it cannot be bettered, it is the ideal.  It would mean everyone was entitled to receive the best van built - ever.  Clearly not possible! 

So, accepting that what we get will inevitably be a bit variable, we should be on our respective guards for the ones that are less than acceptable.  However, as we are all different, with different expectations, even that is not a fixed standard.  I think that is realistic, and not idealistic.

So, all I can say in response to your expectation of perfection, is that you will be disappointed, every time!  Sorry, but I do think you have to be more realistic, however much the ideal may appeal.