Brian Kirby Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Due to low mileage, the service schedule on our 2017 X290 2.3 130 multijet 2 based van is once every two years. That is until year 5 (a non-service year) at which time timing belt (AKA cam-belt) replacement is strongly recommended (as failure is pretty well curtains for the engine!). This is shown in the service schedule on p194 of my owner's handbook (but not the service record book), but appears as something of a footnote, so is easy to miss (I nearly did, and the change has now been booked). So, if you haven't checked, or were unaware, may I suggest checking? But be warned - the book time for the job is in the order of 7 hours, so it is very expensive!! 😞 Seems to be around £1,500 including parts and VAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 With it being almost certainly an 'interference' engine, that's obviously a wise move. Approx. £1500 seems a bit steep to me, ie say 7x @£125 for labour leaving £625 for a belt, w/pump and tension pulley 🤔. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Brian sell it what is now. Unless to a close friend. And cam belt or cam chain is not your concern. And all other other things. That is the way it goes.But your van is open to how many lookers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said: 😞 Seems to be around £1,500 including parts and VAT! WOW rayc on the Ducato forum paid 'about £350' https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/cambelt-change-on-x290-2-3-130hp.499705/#post-4676355 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Hans said: Brian sell it what is now. Unless to a close friend. And cam belt or cam chain is not your concern. And all other other things. That is the way it goes.But your van is open to how many lookers? I wouldn't get it done before selling either Can't see it putting £1500 on the price Might be going to someone who could do it themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 1 hour ago, simians said: With it being almost certainly an 'interference' engine, that's obviously a wise move. Approx. £1500 seems a bit steep to me, ie say 7x @£125 for labour leaving £625 for a belt, w/pump and tension pulley 🤔. Nick Fisher said they had never changed a Ducato water pump (except once when the engine was already out) never had a Ducato water pump fail,and their Ducatos do about 350,000 miles before they are moved on. But he said they change the cambelt tensioners because they look knackered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 It is also advised to change the tensioner bolts once they have been removed. Some years ago we had a Hobby from a well known dealership near Nottingham who sold the van including a new cam belt as part of the deal. First trip down to East Sussex/Kent and the tensioners failed because they had used the old bolts. Not too much damage done (mainly valves and guides) but it meant a trip on the back of a flat bed rescue truck to the dealership, use of a courtesy car to get us back to North Yorkshire before doing the return trip a week later then carrying on with our break. All for the sake of the additional cost of new bolts. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 53 minutes ago, John52 said: WOW rayc on the Ducato forum paid 'about £350' https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/cambelt-change-on-x290-2-3-130hp.499705/#post-4676355 This is where it was done a year ago March 2022 https://www.hillmansmotorservices.co.uk/ The labour rate was £55ph + vat [time three hours] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 If the water pump isn't changed because not thought necessary then £1500 is even more of a supposed ripoff. Sometimes spending money on something that maintains say a good FSH, especially a due cambelt change, can be the deal breaker. Most prospective buyers will ask whether its been carried out or not, will they not? Often the reason to move on to the van that has.Ask a car dealer why they often replace the cambelt. Mind you at £1500 it would have to be a highish value vehicle to remain hopefully 'lost' in the commensurately increased asking price 🤔. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 16 minutes ago, simians said: Ask a car dealer why they often replace the cambelt. Because they can do it cheaper than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 Well yes, but I am selling through a reputable dealership, who, I reasoned, would probably take note of the van's age and ask whether the timing/cam belt had been done. So, as the dealer would presumably then insist it be done before he'd offer it for sale, it seemed simplest, cleanest, and fairest all round to accept that it was my liability. I would also have felt a bit uncomfortable selling the van to a possibly unfamiliar buyer who, having just spent the thick end of (probably) £45,000, might justifiably consider he'd been ill-used if left to discover for himself - especially if he found out after the engine had self-destructed! After all, you can't claim to be selling with the benefit of a full service history if the major service item hasn't been done to schedule. So, all considered, I've been the one using the cam belt, so it seemed fairest to get it done before it goes for sale. Incidentally, just the Fiat parts kit for the belt replacement (which includes a new water pump) costs in the region of £400 + VAT, so the workshops were asking for that to be paid in advance as a deposit. At that price, I could see their point! Does make me wonder what was actually done for the above £350 though. Patterned parts and minimal intervention, I would suspect. The point about replacing the water pump is that if it subsequently begins to leak, replacement involves virtually as much labour time as doing the belt, so it is precautionary, and if you're unlucky with the existing pump, not changing it becomes a very costly saving. So, I opted for the "proper" job, for which I shall get an itemised, franchised dealer's invoice, which just might persuade a hesitant buyer to pay a bit more for their peace of mind. Who knows? Besides, I maintain a clear conscience, which is also worth something. 🙂 The high cost is the product of poor design provision for maintenance, as it seems a lot of what has to be removed to do the job is at the back of the engine, where working access is very restricted, necessitating further removals to get in. If I'd known then what I now know, I'd probably have sniffed out a Peugeot based van, as I understand the Peugeot engine has a chain driven camshaft which generally lasts for the lifetime of the rest of the engine. But, I am where I am, as they say. 😞 Boo hoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 1 hour ago, John52 said: Because they can do it cheaper than you Oh no they couldn't, because I'd do it myself 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 My Ducato-based Rapido 640F motorhome was UK-registered in April 2015 and I put it on the market in the 2nd half of 2021. We chose to sell the motorhome because - as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and the fact that we only motorcaravanned outside the UK - it was just standing idle outside our house with no certainty when it would ever be used again. Although the Rapido had been serviced annually (at Motus Commercials Gloucester) I had decided not to have the timing-belt changed until we knew we'd be going abroad with the vehicle. When the motorhome approached 5 years of age, I had asked Motus Commercials to quote for the work using 'pattern' parts or 'genuine' Fiat parts. Once we had decided to sell the Rapido I asked Motus Commercials to provide another quote on the same basis, but was told that they now only used 'genuine' Fiat parts as they'd had so much difficulty with wrong pattern parts being delivered. I can't recall what the quote was, but I think it was £500-£600 without the water-pump being changed. When I had enquiries I told potential buyers that a timing-belt change was due (and the tyres were also now 6 years old) and I factored the cost into the negotiation. This is what I said to the eventual buyer Regarding replacing the tyres, I’d probably opt for Hankook Vantra RA18 (215/70 R15C) as these have performed very well in independent tests and are significantly less expensive than the ‘camping-car’ type marketed by Michelin (and Continental and Pirelli) that the Rapido currently has. Where replacing the timing-belt is concerned, Fiat Professional agents seem to want to replace the motor’s water-pump at the same time. Replacing the water-pump is NOT part of scheduled servicing and received wisdom is that it should last the life of the motor. The pump is a substantial unit and replacing it is not a small, quick or cheap task. The thinking behind changing the belt may be understandable when a ‘commercial’ Ducato has covered a high mileage, as changing just the pump will require the same preliminary work (and labour costs) involved when the timing-belt is replaced. However, on a low mileage Ducato, if a close inspection of the pump reveals no signs of leakage or unusual wear, it’s probably best left alone. I don't know what the buyers did regarding the timing-belt or the tyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I appreciate that the water pump and coolant will add to the cost of the belt kit. Genuine Fiat belt kits are advertised on ebay by Coastal Motorhomes for £168 inc vat. It would be interesting to see the Fiat breakdown of the pricing to come up with a figure of £400+vat for the parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 As I understand it, the water pump bolts tend to rust up, so you just have touse brute force and hope for the best. If they break its an engine out job. As I recall, there is a long running thread somewhere on here where a member took his Ducato into a garage for a service and cambelt change... snapped water pump bolt .. engine out .. block ruined when the drill slipped trying to drill the bolt out. The rest of the thread was taken up with opinions and arguments about who should pay the £many thousands it was all going to cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 10 hours ago, John52 said: As I understand it, the water pump bolts tend to rust up, so you just have touse brute force and hope for the best. If they break its an engine out job. As I recall, there is a long running thread somewhere on here where a member took his Ducato into a garage for a service and cambelt change... snapped water pump bolt .. engine out .. block ruined when the drill slipped trying to drill the bolt out. The rest of the thread was taken up with opinions and arguments about who should pay the £many thousands it was all going to cost? The forum thread(s) you refer to are these https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/52704-sheared-bolt-problem-engine-removal-at-fiat-professional-garage-advice-please/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/53312-sheared-water-pump-bolt-saga-end-story/#comment-683654 I don't recall sheared water-pump fixing bolts ever being cited as a particular problem with Fiat Ducato X250 vehicles and you rightly commented in the 1st thread "Anybody can snap a stud untightening the nut on an old(ish) engine" and "I don't know what you were doing but you certainly didn't dismantle many used engines if you have never snapped a stud. I have had them snap under even light torque." On the second page of the 1st link I've provided above Nick Fisher (euroserv) provided his expert opinion regarding the sheared water-pump bolt, but made no mention of this being a common problem with Ducato X250s. The fact is (as anyone who has worked on vehicle motors will be well aware) the risk of shearing off a bolt or stud is ever present. What massively exacerbated the extent of that water-pump problem was that the Fiat Professional garage where the breakage occurred was in Spain and the garage refused to accept any liability. There is a well-reported 'sheared bolt' risk with Ducato X250 vehicles, but it relates to the fuel-injector securing bolts, not the water-pump fixings. This was discussed here https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/42585-rusted-injectors-ducato/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Perhaps not a common problem, but you do have the common problem of dissimilar metals in contact encouraging corrosion. However, should it prove to be a regular if not common problem then ; It might be prudent to unfasten these w/pump bolts at any obvious opportunity, even if not actually replacing the w/pump, then reusing these bolts (or new) but in either case smearing the threads with an anti seizing compound. But then you have the slight problem of obtaining the correct torque, as the recommended manuf. torque will probably be for a dry clean bolt thread, and additionally unless extra cautious, run the risk of disturbing the pump seating and promoting a leak. This anti snapoff preventative measure might be worthwhile carrying out, but only if you have a lot of faith in your repairer ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 14 hours ago, Brian Kirby said: If I'd known then what I now know, I'd probably have sniffed out a Peugeot based van, as I understand the Peugeot engine has a chain driven camshaft which generally lasts for the lifetime of the rest of the engine. But, I am where I am, as they say. 😞 Boo hoo! You could have had melted pistons instead like my X2/50 PSA 2.2 after 93,000 miles (At least I think thats whats happened, I've been using it as a garden shed for the past couple of years) I got a Ducato X2/90 after seeing the mileage Nick Fisher was getting from them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 46 minutes ago, simians said: Perhaps not a common problem, but you do have the common problem of dissimilar metals in contact encouraging corrosion. However, should it prove to be a regular if not common problem then ; It might be prudent to unfasten these w/pump bolts at any obvious opportunity, even if not actually replacing the w/pump, then reusing these bolts (or new) but in either case smearing the threads with an anti seizing compound. But then you have the slight problem of obtaining the correct torque, as the recommended manuf. torque will probably be for a dry clean bolt thread, and additionally unless extra cautious, run the risk of disturbing the pump seating and promoting a leak. This anti snapoff preventative measure might be worthwhile carrying out, but only if you have a lot of faith in your repairer ! On top of the risks you mention I'd be worried about snapping the bolts, or their coming loose if too well lubricated. Since Nick Fisher had a fleet of Ducatos doing 350,000 miles plus on the same water pumps I'll be leaving mine well alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 8 hours ago, simians said: you have the slight problem of obtaining the correct torque, as the recommended manuf. torque will probably be for a dry clean bolt thread, My understanding is the recommended torque is the same whether the thread is greased or not. The pressure is so extreme the grease will be squeezed out so you still get metal to metal contact. Like when you grease battery terminals you still get metal to metal contact. The grease just provides protection by filling the in the empty spaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 15 minutes ago, John52 said: On top of the risks you mention I'd be worried about snapping the bolts, or their coming loose if too well lubricated. Since Nick Fisher had a fleet of Ducatos doing 350,000 miles plus on the same water pumps I'll be leaving mine well alone. It would appear to be that snapping w/pump bolts on this engine is not something to be too worried about, more the exception? What I'm proposing that if this is the case then it might well be worth taking the small risk and lubing these bolts at the earliest opportunity, which normally would be at the first cambelt change, then one day perhaps 350k miles or probably sooner, those bolts will be less likely to be seized up recalcitrant little b*****ds and then perhaps be likely to shear off. Admittedly at 350k miles the w/pump is going to be one of many worn out components! If the torque is correct do you really think would come loose, everything is possible .....but probable? The pump mounting doesn't rotate, whereas some manufacturers even advise a bit of grease on wheel studs which are subject to rotation and near direct contact with road shock etc. Anyway as a Merc. owner with virtually all cast steel engine and ancillaries together with gear driven valve gear in lieu of belt or chain it ain't going to be one of my worries....he says smugly ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, simians said: If the torque is correct do you really think would come loose, everything is possible .....but probable? As I said in the post above (which you may not have seen as it went in a couple of seconds before yours) I understand the recommended torque is the same, lubricated or not. But if the threads are corroded it might help to stop them coming loose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simians Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, John52 said: My understanding is the recommended torque is the same whether the thread is greased or not. The pressure is so extreme the grease will be squeeezed out so you still get metal to metal contact. Like when you grease battery terminals you still get mdtal to metal contact. The grease just provides protection by filling the in the empty spaces. FIAT state that the thread can be greased or not and that the torque is the same, unusual in my experience. No, anti seize compounds are just that, they fill microscopic voids preventing corrosion, any metal to metal contact hence friction is limited and relatively easily overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 6 hours ago, simians said: Anyway as a Merc. owner with virtually all cast steel engine and ancillaries together with gear driven valve gear in lieu of belt or chain it ain't going to be one of my worries....he says smugly ! Probably rot away instead. I have been shocked by the bodyshell rust I have seen on Sprinters. My 15 year old garden shed Citroen Relay (X2/50) van hasn't got a speck of rust visible on the bodyshell - even where self tappers have pierced the floor with wet and rotten plywood around them under the shower. The galvanising has protected even the wet exposed steel like the sacrificial anodes on a boat. Although thats no comfort when the engine is knackered after 93,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Hi I think it would be very prudent if one is going to the expense of replacing a timing belt before selling the vehicle that all parts in contact with same be replaced as preventive maintenance Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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