Sorry batteries again!

[snail]

2010 boxer autocruise tempo pvc

There is a 95amp gel battery on its side under drivers seat  it needs replacing

We have a epever mppt solar controller with 100 watt panel 

Would like to have biggest gel battery that will fit or a pair under drivers seat

Does anyone know what will fit?

Am I correct in thinking gel batteries are more tolerant of discharging to a lower level? 

What's the difference between gel and AGM is it just the insulation between the plates? A gel or glass mat

Or do they have the different charging characteristics on my controller set to gel be same for AGM?

Mostly use 5 van sites off grid

Thanks 

[Derek Uzzell]

As your Tempo's 'on-its-side' leisure battery is gel-type, what is the battery's make and model? (I'm a bit surprised that it would have a 95Ah capacity.)

Around 2010 Swift Group were fitting AGM batteries on their side under the driver's-side cab seat, and people were later asking on motorhome forums where to obtain a replacement. This discussion is one example

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/16785-extra-leisure-battery/

As your Tempo is 13 years old, it's quite likely it has had its original leisure battery replaced at least once. So - even if the original battery had been AGM-type - a gel-type battery might well have been fitted as a replacement.

It MIGHT be practicable to shoehorn a pair of 019-size batteries (around 80Ah each) upright into the space beneath the driver's seat, but I'm near certain modifications would be needed to allow this to be done. The simplest approach would be to fit a single new battery that is the same dimensionally and replace gel with gel.

Gel and AGM batteries have different charging regimens and AGM batteries are sensitive to this. Presumably your Tempo's battery-charger has been set to (or can handle) gel-charging, so - if your present battery has lasted for a good while - best not to complicate matters. 

[Robinhood]

Gel and AGM batteries have significantly different charging characteristics. Whilst some users will maintain they have had no problems, it is best practice to match the charger regime to the type. If the capability is available, it is usually achieved by setting switches on both your mains and solar charger/controller.

There has also been a fair amount of debate about the longevity of AGM leisure batteries (particularly where an "incorrect" charging regime has been applied. To balance that, I've had AGM batteries on the current and last motorhome, the latter with a specific setting, and the former used on Lead/Acid setting, with no noticeable issues. (the 'van prior to that was fitted with gel, and the appropriate charging regime)

I think, given the relative costs, I'd probably replace my current AGM units with Gel at end-of-life, but I do have access to charging settings for both. If you think your 'van is set up for Gel (and you've had decent life out of the battery to date) I'm solidly with Derek here and would recommend replacement with the same type. Though, size-for-size the Ah rating is likely to be lower than AGM, a gel battery should tolerate a greater depth of discharge without undesirable effects.

It's difficult to be certain about underseat mounting (since converter's practice and usage differ, particularly if there is something else intruding there), but I had two 019-sized AGM batteries under the front seat of a 2015 Ducato. It was a tight fit, but perfectly viable (though the seat and swivel needed to be removed to get them in, and that's a heavy job). The gel equivalent of these (019 size) would be the Exide ES900 (or G80, depending on badging) at 80Ah each. 

[snail]

Morning Derek thanks for the info, we only changed vans last October no info in history about battery

Just been away couple of nights first off grid with this one, although with the solar is showing upto 14 volts, the battery is down to 12 by morning with nothing used bar couple of hours led lights

It's persisting down here and funerals next two days but will a better look after

[snail]

Thanks Robin hood that's useful info too, probaly Thursday now before have chance for a proper look

[snail]

Hi again both, got some time in van so more details now, first mistake believing the dealer!

Derek correct 90 ah AGM battery, on its side can't see a brand but has gold colour flashes and some weird animal head motif! With string carry handles

Sargent ec400 psu software no. C103p173, after lifting this out I can see battery charger fitted to floor which is labelled ec446 px300n 3 stage switching mode charger

The epever mppt solar dual controller supports sealed, flooded, gel, lifepo4, li-ni co nm, presently set to gel! Although in the handbook the setting pages parameters are the same for sealed, flooded, gel? Is sealed an AGM ?

The mains charger I can't find individual battery types it's set to smart charging for mains and solar although the solar looks to be wired without going through the psu?

Thanks both if you have anymore guidance    

[Robinhood]

The small amount of info I can get on the Sargent site for the PX300 is that it "is configured to work with standard lead acid leisure batteries, and in most cases is also compatible with the latest range of Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) batteries". 

That doesn't surprise me given the vintage. Whilst the requirements for standard Lead-Acid and AGM are different, they are close  (and, as above, whilst possibly not ideal I've run twin AGMs on a Lead-Acid setting without notable issues - YMMV). Converters started dropping AGM batteries in vehicles before specific AGM setting became available.

I doubt there are any switchable settings for that charger.

You don't say which epever controller you have. The sample I've looked at has different settings for the battery types you mention, set by progressive button pushes. I'd probably expect yours to have those multiple settings. Whilst "sealed" isn't exactly analogous with AGM, it is generally the terminology used, so that would be the AGM setting (and definitely not the Gel setting).

Whilst the mains charger would probably be OK asis for AGM, albeit slightly less than optimal, it wouldn't be sensible to use it with Gel batteries (the charging regimes are too different).

So, it looks like AGM is your starting option. The same situation applies for 2x019-size underseat batteries which are available in AGM in that size (but need a robust check for fit). Varta LA95 is an example, others ae available.

If upright (and vented) a possible alternative would be to use EFB batteries, and set the Solar to flooded - it might be slightly cheaper, though I still think I'd go AGM.

Lithium is another option with significantly higher energy density, though that is fraught with many more questions as a "drop-in" alternative that I don't, as yet, feel qualified to answer.

[snail]

Thanks Robin, yes I googled the charger and as you say choice of lead acid or agm, 

So AGM will be my choice as is already type fitted so assume charger ok with this, I do need to change my controller to sealed then as this is the term they use for AGM 

So now left to find what fits 019 is a frame size? Physical dimensions? Then choose amp hours, 2 smaller ones will probaly fit/work better than one large one, Thank you both the muddy waters are clearing slowly

[Derek Uzzell]

The dimensions in millimetres of a 019 battery are 353(length) x 175(width) x 190(height) and there are AGM examples among the batteries shown here

https://www.tayna.co.uk/search/019 agm

Installing a pair of shorter batteries might be easier and 110 batteries have these millimetre dimensions 315(length) x 175(width) x 190(height)

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/types/110-agm/

This 2017 forum thread discussed fitting a 2nd leisure battery to an Autocruise Rhythm

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/41791-second-leisure-battery-for-autocruise-rythm/

and the dimensions of the on-its-side underseat AGM battery were stated as (approximately) 260mm(length) x 168mm(width) x 212mm(height).

[snail]

Thanks Derek all useful info, I will get the seat out when time allows to get true measurements of space available 

[snail]

Robin hood is your 2015 ducato the x250 chassis? If so should be same as our boxer?

[Robinhood]

It was an X290, but I believe (though check) that the seating is the same.

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2018 thread may be of interest

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/42897-varta-lfd90-batterie

Deneb's February 25 post in that thread includes details of the two batteries he fitted under the cab-seat of his Ducato (photo below)

The Hankook 90Ah batteries Deneb chose to use were "27" size (302mm length, 172mm width, 220mm height) and flooded wet-acid type. An example advert here

https://www.bmstechnologies.co.uk/product/hankook-dc27-leisure-battery/

(To the best of my knowledge, the dimensions and internal volume of a Ducato X250's cab-seat base was the same as that of the follow-up Ducato X290.)

[snail]

Thanks again guys, subject to availability of space I will go for varta la95amp agm or the smaller varta f21 80amp agm

Either will be a big advantage, now with them wired in parallel it's best for supply from + on one battery and - from the other so both being charged and used evenly?

What about fuses I have one 40amp, should I put two 20 amp one for each battery, where would they be fitted? Or should I put a 40amp trip in just the positive feed line? 

[Derek Uzzell]

Not all AGM batteries have the same flavour...

The  LA95 is one of Varta's Professional Dual Purpose range of AGM batteries that is described here

https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-professional-dual-purpose-agm

with its stated purpose given as

For leisure applications with moderate energy demands, VARTA® Professional Dual Purpose AGM batteries can be used to start the engine of your motorhome and deliver service power for accessories and electronics. These batteries are ideal for seasonal use, so when you take your boat or caravan out of winter storage, it’s ready to go.

The F21 (Varta ref. 115AGM) is one of Varta's Silver Dynamic AGM range that is described here

https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/varta-silver-dynamic-agm

with its stated purpose given as

The VARTA® Silver Dynamic AGM stands for unparalleled performance: with 3 times the cycle life of conventional batteries, the VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM is the perfect choice for vehicles with the highest energy demands, as start-stop or electric vehicles. This can be due to heavier usage, cold winters, hot summers or multiple accessories and equipment. That is why you´ll find a VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM in 70% of newly manufactured cars with start-stop technology powered by AGM batteries.

So - if you wanted/needed a Varta AGM battery that was shorter in length than the LA95 - the logical 'on paper' choice would be a LA80.

It may be stating the obvious, but - when people have managed to fit two batteries beneath a Ducato cab-seat - it has not been in an Autocruise/Swift motorhome where the original leisure-battery had been installed on its side beneath the seat. Although there is a fair amount of on-line discussion on replacing the single on-its-side battery fitted to some Autocruise/Swift models, this has generally been about finding a suitable single battery that can be used. I've not read anything where the single 'lying flat' battery has been replaced under the seat by two 'upright' batteries. As I said above, expect to have to make modifications.

 

Clive Mott-Gotobed's advice on parallel-connecting a pair of 12V leisure batteries can be read here

https://www.motts.org/second leisiure battery.htm

In your case, the relevant diagram would be this one

 

[colin]

I would note that I fitted two 75Ah batteries and a invertor under our x250 seat, the batteries where orientated at 90deg to those shown above, and the invertor fitted at end of batteries. The existing battery 'stand' dictated how the batteries went in, and I could have fitted two 90Ah ,without the invertor, in the same place.

[snail]

Colin, thanks for that reassurance

Derek, your saying silver dynamic varta is the best choice then

[Robinhood]

46 minutes ago, colin said:

.....the batteries where orientated at 90deg to those shown above....

...yes, mine were E-W, rather than N-S. Tight fit, but it didn't worry me, as I had the dealer double-up as part of purchase. 

[Derek Uzzell]

4 hours ago, snail said:

Colin, thanks for that reassurance

Derek, your saying silver dynamic varta is the best choice then

No, I'm saying that - if you decide to go for Varta AGM products - 'leisure' batteries from the Varta Professional Dual Purpose range would be the most logical choice

[colin]

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that you used Varta LFD75 batteries - did you fit vent tubes to them?

[colin]

I didn't, but I keep meaning to. Although (iirc) at one time Alun posted they were not necessary on these I've always regretted not fitting them. 

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan Evans was very fond of Varta's LFD range of batteries and confidently stated that they did not need to be vented as their design meant that they would not gas.

My view was that, while I accepted Allan's expertise regarding the LFD range's design and construction, and that this might mean that in normal use those batteries would not gas, there was always the possibility that abnormal use (or the battery developing a fault) could result in gassing.

As Varta LFD batteries had ports intended to accept a vent-tube, it seemed sensible to me (an incurable pessimist) to fit a vent-tube irrespective of where in a motorhome the battery was housed.

[snail]

Hi guys managed to get couple of hours in the van this morning, 

One set the epever controller to sel 1, which should be AGM, it was on the gel setting, although the parameters in the book are the same for both?

Having had a poke about under the seat through the hole in swivel base with tape measure  and torch, I have decided on 2 x varta la 80 agm, it should give me a bit more wriggle space

Have now ordered them from Tayna, 

So thanks all for helping me with the choices and advise, especially Derek and Robinhood👍

[Robinhood]

4 hours ago, snail said:

One set the epever controller to sel 1, which should be AGM, it was on the gel setting, although the parameters in the book are the same for both?

You haven't (I think) specified the model of controller, but I've looked at a sample of epever ones, and though the voltages remain similar for Gel/AGM, there is (at least implicitly) an equalisation stage in the AGM setting. This isn't present for Gel (and AIUI, one shouldn't generally equalise Gel).