robin Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Greetings All, After complaining about a vile smell from the fumes on our 'fridge, I was informed by the Dometic engineer that the burner had sooted up due to using Autogas and that Dometic now frown on such uasge. He changed the burner and all seems o.k. after a 10 day trip. The fridge is about 8 months old and had been used mostly on gas (autogas) for about 6 weeks away. The documentation with the 'fridge refers only to use with LPG with no mention of any autogas restriction, so as far as I am concerned this is Dometic's problem, should it re-occur. (as Autogas is LPG). The reason for this post is: 1) to suggest that prospective purchasers of new 'vans check the Dometic documentation for any restrictions if planning to use Autogas; and 2) to wonder if anyone else has come across this? Cheers, Robin :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Hi Robin, We tend to use our fridge on LPG most of the time, we avoid electric hook up where possible. We have Gaslow refillables, around three years now, so use LPG from petrol stations and can say we have had absolutely no problem whatsoever. Methinks you have been strung a line assuming you are using the appropriate equipment. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I agree with Bas and suspect that you will get a few posts from people using refillables saying the same. When I had trouble with my fridge recently the Dometic engineer told me that they are prone to failure because they "only get used intermittently" I ask you? It's in a leisure vehicle! If I told them I was full timing they would probably say that "They're only designed to be used intermittently" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I also agree, you have been given a load of male cow poo! When I serviced our fridge after nearly 10 years of which 2 years on autogas it had no soot anywhere. Just dust and rust and cobwebs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Ralph - 2007-07-23 2:03 PM IWhen I had trouble with my fridge recently the Dometic engineer told me that they are prone to failure because they "only get used intermittently" I ask you? It's in a leisure vehicle! Ralph, How daft is that, surely that is what they were designed for or else they would not be 'fit for purpose' under the relevent legislation! Clive - 2007-07-23 2:35 PM When I serviced our fridge after nearly 10 years of which 2 years on autogas it had no soot anywhere. Just dust and rust and cobwebs! Clive, That is all I have ever found in ours as well, plenty of the rust in very fine dust form, as well! I really wonder about some of these service people, I believe they think we are all idiots! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggy Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Chausson W75 2005 model - regular all year round use. I Have had a "gaslow" system for 18mths. My dometic fridge kept going out (failing to re-light when required) but it had occasionally occurred before I had the installation (thought initially maybe it was the gusty weather), I then became concerned that it might be the gas system as the problem gradually became more frequent, my dealer arranged for a dometic engineer to visit my home address, the engineer said "it is the most common problem with this fridge, the spark gap is critical, too wide or to narrow will give problems", he discounted any problem with the re-fillable cyinders. He replaced the burner assembly and all is ok, now it lights without any discernable click or noise whereas from new a click and "pop" was always apparent when first switching on, being a new "camper" didn't know this wasn't normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Thanks for all your reassuring replies (lol) – I hope my experience is a one off. The smell from this one was quite appalling and could be detected from quite a distance - also inside the 'van. >:-( The engineer was quite insistent that Dometic had instructed them to ‘advise’ customers to only use bottled gas and confirmed this via a telephone call in my presence to HQ. Something to do with additives now being added to Autogas that aren’t present in bottled gas. I did point out that there was no reference in any of the supplied documentation to only using bottled gas, and if this continued to be an issue then it was an issue for Dometic to resolve. However, it would be wise for purchasers of new ‘van to check the documentation. The burner was sooted up quite badly - perhaps it was a faulty burner or maybe I had picked up some ‘dirty’ gas in my travels >:-) BTW I had used Autogas on our previous 'van for about 18 months with a similar Dometic 'fridge with no problem. I have also sealed up some gaps around the wiring with Gaffa tape 8-) as recommended by the engineer - so the 'fridge is now completely sealed from the inside of the 'van Cheers (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 There may be a grain of truth in the Dometic engineer's comments. Autogas is intended for bi-fuel vehicle use, not for 'domestic' leisure-vehicle appliances. Vehicle LPG systems work with gas in liquid state and contain filters not found in motorhomes. This means that vehicles may be more tolerant of 'dirty' LPG than motorhomes. An acquaintance of mine, having replenished his empty refillable gas bottle from a local UK service-station dispensing autogas, subsequently found that none of his motorhome's gas appliances would function.. The problem immediately disappeared when he switched to his Calor back-up bottle. He did some basic experimentation to try to establish what was wrong with the LPG in the refillable bottle (drained out some liquid, set it on fire, checked how quickly it evaporated, etc.) and eventually concluded that he had picked up contaminated liquid gas from the service-station's storage tank. (I suggested it might have been water contamination, but he thought not). I asked him if he had been able to obtain any compensation from the service-station management and he said their attitude had been "If you use autogas for a purpose other than fuelling vehicles then it's not our responsibility if problems result". This experience had totally put him off refillable LPG bottles and he had decided to return to exchange-only containers. I just mention this in passing - personally I've used a refillable LPG bottle for several years and, although two Truma/GOK regulators have 'died' on me during that period, there's been no apparent ill effect on my motorhomes' domestic appliances from using autogas. However, I will admit to being a tad wary of committing to an 'all autogas' arrangement comprising a single bottle, Gaslow-type twin-bottle system, or gas-tank, just because I can envisage the problems that would result from a dose of contaminated LPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 That's all a bit scary! I've an all-Gaslow system and so far, everything works perfectly. I took the precaution of fitting the new stainless steel hoses as I'd heard that the regulator problems were caused by rubber leeching from the old-style hoses.If I were to suffer with dodgy LPG from a filling station, can I buy a Calor bottle and simply screw it in to my Gaslow system as a temporary replacement, or do I have to start swopping regulators as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Keats Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I use many "other gasses" They are occasionaly not correct according to their spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Caraprof/Frank: My understanding is that the supply-hose Gaslow normally use to attach their refillable bottles to the regulator has the same connector as that employed for UK Calor 4.5kg (butane) containers. So, if you felt so inclined, you could disconnect one of your Gaslow bottles and immediately reconnect to a 4.5kg Calor (butane) canister. A traditional French 13kg (butane or propane) steel bottle would also connect directly, as this uses the same 'Calor 4.5kg' connector. Gaslow also market a range of adapters that screw on to their standard supply-hose and allow alternative bottles to be connected. (If you get hold of a Gaslow leaflet or download the company's brochure you'll be able to see what can be connected to what and how.) Where no supply-hose adapter is available - let's imagine the unlikely situation where you ran out of gas in Sweden and all the autogas-supplying service-stations were on strike! - as there's (apparently) no adapter available to convert a hose with 'Calor 4.5kg' connector to the Swedish standard, then you'd need to replace the hose with a suitable substitute. Gaslow do offer such a product, but (unless you were gifted with second sight) you'd likely need to obtain the appropriate hose in Sweden. I notice there's a letter in the latest August 2007 issue of MMM ("Fixed Regulators", page 15) about plasticisers being leached from rubber gas hoses. It might be worth drawing attention to Truma's stance on this. Truma have acknowledged that plasticisers have been instrumental in causing problems with their GOK-manufactured regulators, but they have always maintained (and continue to maintain) that the specific plasticisers that their research has identified as being present in the failed regulators are not used in the manufacturing processes of the hoses Truma market nor of the Truma/GOK regulators themselves. If one accepts Truma's statement, this means that the offending plasticisers must be present in the LPG. As it seems reasonable to suppose that rubber hoses are employed in the gas production and bottling processes (and, for autogas, at the delivery to service-station and dispensing stages too), then the idea that there could be plasticisers in the LPG itself doesn't seem outrageous to me. One thing a Truma(UK) chap did tell me was that every failed regulator (and he assured me they examined every one returned under warranty) had been found to be 'wet' inside. He then took me to a display on their NEC stand and proudly showed me the regulator installation now recommended (ie. a high-mounted vertical regulator with its inlet uppermost). When I asked what this arrangement was going to achieve if (as Truma seemed to be suggesting) there were aggressive chemicals already in the LPG that, presumably, would be delivered to the regulator in atomised form, I got one of those desperate looks Jehovah's Witnesses visitors to my house give me when we discuss the fine details of their beliefs. I don't think, short of stealing Truma's and Calor's test data and then torturing their sales-staff, it's ever going to be possible for Joe Public to know with certainty what causes fixed regulator failures. However, I do accept that (because it's logical and should reduce the chance of regulators becoming 'wet' internally) the regulator installation now being recommended is a sensible step forward. (And now a question that's really nothing to do with motorcaravanning, but has been puzzling me for a while. In the "Fixed Regulators" letter there's the line "the hose will LOOSE some of its flexibility". Has something happened to the English (or American-English) language, or have recent word-processors been re-programmed? I regularly see "loose" being used wrongly as a synonym for "lose" and I find it hard to believe it's just because writers/editors, etc. don't know the difference or can't spell. Any ideas?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 robin - 2007-07-23 12:40 PM Greetings All, After complaining about a vile smell from the fumes on our 'fridge, I was informed by the Dometic engineer that the burner had sooted up due to using Autogas and that Dometic now frown on such uasge. He changed the burner and all seems o.k. after a 10 day trip. The fridge is about 8 months old and had been used mostly on gas (autogas) for about 6 weeks away. The documentation with the 'fridge refers only to use with LPG with no mention of any autogas restriction, so as far as I am concerned this is Dometic's problem, should it re-occur. (as Autogas is LPG). The reason for this post is: 1) to suggest that prospective purchasers of new 'vans check the Dometic documentation for any restrictions if planning to use Autogas; and 2) to wonder if anyone else has come across this? Cheers, Robin :-) I groaned when I read this as I am planning to have Telford's finest put in a refillable system in my 2 month old Knaus - it's important because I have spinal problems which make hefting calor cylinders very difficult. I checked the on-line (dometic.com) brochure for my fridge/freezer model RM7655L, and it just said don't use town gas or natural gas, so I did not think there would be a problem with autogas. (I checked again today and it still says the same thing.) To be on the safe side, after reading Robin's post, I checked the paper Dometic manual which came with the van and it's the same as the online one EXCEPT "autogas" has been added between "don't use" and "town gas or natural gas"! I think the commment about fitness for purpose made in one of the posts sums it up. Dometic's sudden change in advice is going to cause me a lot of grief. I expect I'll just have to take a chance and try autogas, as keeping removable cylinders is not practical for me. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Just used ours for 11 weeks on autogas and no problems at all. No smell, no Flame failure, just a good time! Actually the fridge was cloder when we used the gas bit than when we used the electric from a hook up. No one mentioned this problem at all when we bought the van or when we fitted the autogas system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Usinmyknaus - 2007-08-10 4:49 PM I groaned when I read this as I am planning to have Telford's finest put in a refillable system in my 2 month old Knaus - it's important because I have spinal problems which make hefting calor cylinders very difficult. I checked the on-line (dometic.com) brochure for my fridge/freezer model RM7655L, and it just said don't use town gas or natural gas, so I did not think there would be a problem with autogas. (I checked again today and it still says the same thing.) To be on the safe side, after reading Robin's post, I checked the paper Dometic manual which came with the van and it's the same as the online one EXCEPT "autogas" has been added between "don't use" and "town gas or natural gas"! I think the commment about fitness for purpose made in one of the posts sums it up. Dometic's sudden change in advice is going to cause me a lot of grief. I expect I'll just have to take a chance and try autogas, as keeping removable cylinders is not practical for me. Bob Hi Bob, We have been using Gaslow for over three years now and refilled nine or ten times both at home and abroad, we have experienced no problems whatsoever with the filling or use of any of our appliances. We have also not experienced a problem with the regulator either even though it is installed in the non recommended way, however our reg is not a Trauma/ Gok made one. I would say forget your fears go ahead and fit whatever fixed type of reffilable you desire. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I have been using the Gaslow system since the beginning of last year, so that's 6 months continuous motorhome occupancy in the last 18 months. The only problem I have had was after filling, or maybe overfilling then travelling over some bumpy roads, switching on the gas at the gas hob gave forth a loud whoosh, as though liquid gas had been passed into the gas pipe work, luckily the flame blew out. I switched off the gas on the bottle again, changed cylinders by using the manual switch over, my system uses two cheap calor type propane regulators, one on each cylinder, so swapping over will test each regulator. Turning on the gas hob again gave a momentary gush of high pressure gas (the whoosh) before returning to the normal sound of low pressure gas issuing from the gas burner, and the gas ignited okay. Changing back to the original cylinder and the gas supply was okay again. So I am unsure as to what I can attribute the malady, was one of the bottles overfilled? This was a first time use after refilling them, but not the first time they had been refilled and it did seem to take alot more gas to refill than I thought it should, and during use, the gas in one cylinder did seem to last longer before it ran out. As the gas tap on the cylinder is always turned off when travelling and refuelling, what I did notice was the tap was very hard to turn on after arriving on site, as if the tap was frozen, so perhaps the cylinder was overfilled and the liquid had frozen the tap and was passed into the regulator, even though the cylinder has an 80% cut off valve fitted. I have refilled the system around three times since and the problem has not reoccurred. I digress - The fridge has been used for three continuous two month periods in the last 18 months, six months in all. Prior to that it will have been on calor propane for a similar period of time. The flame burns blue on all settings and it usually lights first time. I am going to amend my gas start up procedure now because of this experience. After refilling the Gaslow system and arriving on site, I will test the gas pressure by lighting a hob, before starting the fridge or gas fire and boiler, as these appliances are all enclosed and may be damaged by high pressure gas, whereas you do have some immediate control over a simple gas hob/burner tap. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 Tomo, Bas and Terry, Thanks chaps that was all very reassuring. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Terry, My understanding of the construction of Gaslow bottles compared to the (more expensive) Stako-manufactured type is that the Gaslow product is less sophisticated in two areas. The first is that the same 80% cut-off valve (made from plastic rather than the Stako bottle's brass) is used on both the 6kg Gaslow container and the 11kg one. A Stako-bottle retailer told me that he found this surprising as the cut-off valves on 'his' bottles were all bottle-capacity specific. He had experimented with fitting the 'wrong' valve to Stako containers and found that it could result in significant over-filling. This may explain the apparent variation reported on forums on how much LPG Gaslow-bottle users can get into their bottles during refilling. The second variation involves the fitment to Stako containers of an 'anti-liquid gas tube' (there's a proper technical term for this but I've forgotten it!). This is a simple metal tube that extends some distance downwards inside the bottle. The tube's lower end is sealed and its upper end masks the base of the bottle's screw-down supply-valve through which LPG reaches the leisure vehicle. The upper end of the tube is pierced by a ring of small holes and the tube's design function is to reduce the chance of liquid gas finding its way into the supply-valve. This safety feature is, of course, more important when gas bottles are not turned off during travel and particularly important if gas heating is used en route. Apparently Gaslow bottles lack this tube. I'm wary of your 'frozen valve' theory and it seems more likely you've got a 'dicky' valve. Certainly that happened with my first refillable bottle (not a Gaslow one), though, in my case, the valve seemed to function properly but the gas-flow was restricted. General: As Dometic are now stipulating that Autogas should not be used with their fridges, it would be sensible for anyone concerned about this to ask the company why. Without knowing the background to the ban, there's little point implying it can be ignored just because individuals (including myself) have being powering their Dometic fridges with Autogas for extended periods with no apparent problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Hi Derek, Thanks for the input on the dickey shut off valve, it did cross my mind that it might be faulty as it is stiffer to turn than the other one on my twin cylinder installation. I put it down to manufacturing variation and/or stem gland variation. It is freeing off with use, and is now almost the same rotary resistance as its twin. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Derek Uzzell - 2007-08-12 9:51 AM Terry, My understanding of the construction of Gaslow bottles compared to the (more expensive) Stako-manufactured type is that the Gaslow product is less sophisticated in two areas. The first is that the same 80% cut-off valve (made from plastic rather than the Stako bottle's brass) is used on both the 6kg Gaslow container and the 11kg one. A Stako-bottle retailer told me that he found this surprising as the cut-off valves on 'his' bottles were all bottle-capacity specific. He had experimented with fitting the 'wrong' valve to Stako containers and found that it could result in significant over-filling. This may explain the apparent variation reported on forums on how much LPG Gaslow-bottle users can get into their bottles during refilling. . Interesting .... I have been complaining about a faint whiff of gas from my gas locker for some while now. Ian (at Heart of Engaland) has gone over all the joints and pipes with a fine tooth comb (well gas detector equivalent) and failed to find any sign of a leak). Gaslow advised him that it could be due to overfilling and are replacing one of the cyclinders under warranty. hmmm I am keen to get this sorted before Eurotunnel inspect my gas bottles at the end of this month >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 I've received a definitive answer from Dometic, who were commendably quick in responding to my request. They say the problem with using autogas is that the flue central tube (chimney) will soot up in a short period of time. Autogas contains oily substances which give rise to combustion problems i.e. sooting when burning. This is the reason they do not recommend its use, although the performance of the fridge itself should not be affected. They add that if Autogas is used the burner and central flue will need to be cleaned regularly when in use. I replied saying that I would proceed with the installation of refillable cylinders (physically I have no choice) and will arrange for additional service inspections. I will assume that if Dometic do not object to my proposal they will feel obliged to honour the warranty unless they can show that the autogas has caused any subsequent failure. If they don't well I can't continue with calor cylinders so as I have already said, I have little choice. Also, I checked the on-line manual for the fridge in good faith before I bought it and it made no mention of problems with autogas - indeed it still does not - see dometic.com, model RM7655L if interested. The problem only came to light when I checked the paper version of the same manual which came with my fridge. Any of you technical experts out there know if cleaning the burner and chimney is a DIY job please? Or can Dave Newell look forward to regular contributions to his pension fund? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi Bob, Try Brians web page - a gold mine of information for the DIY man, servicing of the fridge is on this link http://www.ourwanderer.org/wan6.htm#RM4200/10 Look for his index for other DIY jewels. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thanks terry. Regards. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 robin - 2007-07-24 8:44 AM Thanks for all your reassuring replies (lol) – I hope my experience is a one off. The smell from this one was quite appalling and could be detected from quite a distance - also inside the 'van. >:-( The engineer was quite insistent that Dometic had instructed them to ‘advise’ customers to only use bottled gas and confirmed this via a telephone call in my presence to HQ. Something to do with additives now being added to Autogas that aren’t present in bottled gas. I did point out that there was no reference in any of the supplied documentation to only using bottled gas, and if this continued to be an issue then it was an issue for Dometic to resolve. However, it would be wise for purchasers of new ‘van to check the documentation. The burner was sooted up quite badly - perhaps it was a faulty burner or maybe I had picked up some ‘dirty’ gas in my travels >:-) BTW I had used Autogas on our previous 'van for about 18 months with a similar Dometic 'fridge with no problem. I have also sealed up some gaps around the wiring with Gaffa tape 8-) as recommended by the engineer - so the 'fridge is now completely sealed from the inside of the 'van Cheers (lol) Hi Robin the smell you are getting from the Autogas is because of the additive being a Stenching agent, (Ethyl Mercaptan for the boffins out there) it is very strong and pugnent. In it's undiluted form it will take your breath away.Even just coupling/uncoupling the Ethyl mercaptan container on the Refinery where I work can be smelt over a large area. There is a dosing of the stenching agent in both Autogas & LPG, so I suspect Domestic's stance is defensive rather than factual. If you get the opportunity to fill in France they use a nicely perfumed additive. It could be argued that the offensive smell used in the UK ensures something is done about correcting the problem, whereas a pleasant smell will be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigrem Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Pleasing to see Dometics helpful reply to Usinmyknaus, up to then the cynic in me was thinking that Calor was on the list of another of Dometics future acquisitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Usinmyknaus - 2007-08-13 2:09 PM I've received a definitive answer from Dometic, who were commendably quick in responding to my request. They say the problem with using autogas is that the flue central tube (chimney) will soot up in a short period of time. Autogas contains oily substances which give rise to combustion problems i.e. sooting when burning. This is the reason they do not recommend its use, although the performance of the fridge itself should not be affected. They add that if Autogas is used the burner and central flue will need to be cleaned regularly when in use. Bob Bob I can only repeat my previous post that we have used Autogas with our Gaslows for three years now and there has been absolutely no change to our use or service regime, there has been no difference whatsoever in the performance of any appliance or the need for any more regular servicing to be carried out, when I service it annually there has been no change to the condition of any of the appliances including the fridge. IMHO their reply, to use one of Brians sayings, is Bovine Excrement for whatever reason to discourage the use of Autogas. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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