Tony Norton Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 If I needed any confirmation of the above it was provided by John Wickersham's article in the August issue of MMM, although I should perhaps qualify that by modifying the heading to "Braked A-Frames are illegal". The clues were: - 1) "....the coupling head on the frame has to be elevated....", it therefore obviously contravenes the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations requiring the drawbar of a braked trailer (for this is what a car with an A-Frame attached becomes) up to 1500Kg not to touch the ground if the main coupling fails. Above this 1500Kg figure the trailer should be stopped automatically in these conditions. 2) "....you'll find they (the brakes) start to engage if you try to carry out a reversing manoeuvre....". C & U requirements are for automatic engagement/disengagement of the brakes when reversing. I think the lack of response from the manufacturers to my queries on the above points speaks volumes. Unbraked A-Frames are another matter as they are not covered by the regulations relating to braked trailers, but be warned, it is not the kerbweight, John, that is the relevant figure, but the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) or MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) that has to be under 750Kg. If I decide to tow I'll get myself a proper trailer so that I will know I'm legal and untouchable when the 'Bill' decide to start enforcing the regulations. Happy motorhoming to all and stay legal. Tony Norton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Lives to short to worry about legal or not get a A frame for conveniance and simplicity of towing.Please not another large amount of threads from the so called barrack room lawyers. >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 omar - 2007-07-25 4:13 PM Lives to short to worry about legal or not >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( I'll just leave that remarkable statement for all to see!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Tony Norton - 2007-07-25 2:36 PM 1) "....the coupling head on the frame has to be elevated....", it therefore obviously contravenes the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations requiring the drawbar of a braked trailer (for this is what a car with an A-Frame attached becomes) up to 1500Kg not to touch the ground if the main coupling fails. Above this 1500Kg figure the trailer should be stopped automatically in these conditions. Just on that point Tony I think you will find that some of the better A-frames do have either a jockey wheel or skid to keep the drawbar off the ground and a breakaway cable - just the same as most caravans/trailers...... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hi I really do find these discussions strange, most people if they are honest break the law at sometime during there lives, so that isn't new ?? and as for "A" frames if you don't want to take a chance using one then DON'T but please don't keep telling other people that they shouldn't just because you don't want to??. we are all Adults who can make up our own minds. What I think would make an interesting debate is a discussion on the benefits of an Trailer over an "A" frame or visa versa, but please stick to the practical issue ?? as there are 100's of people using both so it would be interesting what the benefits are I have started a New Thread to cover this subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Mel Why so remarkable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Keats Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Those who flout the laws of the land obviously dont care who they may kill or maim in their quest for "Their right to do as they wish" Kill yourself by all means but don't endanger others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 That smacks of way OTT. What makes you think A-Frames are dangerous?? peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 omar - 2007-07-25 7:24 PM Mel Why so remarkable Because it suggests you have a total disregard for the laws of the land you live in and therefore any and every body else's rights, safety and feelings. Clear enough? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1ntersun Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 If a-frames are illegal why don,t the police pull all uses in and fine them. Why hasn,t there been a test case. The police are quite happy to pull you in for bulbs not working etc. Even the ccc state at your own risk as there has not been clarification. I have towed an a-frame all over western europe, been stopped in police road side checks ( In SPAIN ) and have never been questioned once about legality. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 As nobody has ever been prosecuted for using one, I think a precedent has already been set and would probably result in a failed prosecution if it was brought. If I was going to tow a car I would definately get one. What's the point of towing a car on a trailer and having to store it on site. What would happen if the trailer was then stolen in your absence. Two vehicles to then have to drive home. I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 omar - 2007-07-25 4:13 PM Lives to short to worry about legal or not get a A frame for conveniance and simplicity of towing.Please not another large amount of threads from the so called barrack room lawyers. >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( Nice to see that you have an open mind and respect other forum member's views! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well ill certainly be using one next year , they seem to be accepted well enough in this country . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 peter - 2007-07-25 10:41 PM As nobody has ever been prosecuted for using one, I think a precedent has already been set and would probably result in a failed prosecution if it was brought. If I was going to tow a car I would definately get one. What's the point of towing a car on a trailer and having to store it on site. What would happen if the trailer was then stolen in your absence. Two vehicles to then have to drive home. I don't think so. Peter, a precedent cannot be set until a court case is brought. That's where the precedent comes from, a previous case being one that has gone before. As there has been no previous case there cannot be a precedent set. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAubyns Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I don't use one and I probably never will, but when I had my motorhome renewal from Comfort, included was a leaflet saying that they will insure "A" Frames and the cars attached to them on a Fully Comprehensive basis. Make of that what you will, but it would appear to be an acceptance of their legality when a major insurer will accept them on a policy. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 John Wickersham's A-frame piece in MMM must be unique in being the first motorhome-related technical article to cite "conscience" as the reason for its inception. Surely the questionable legality of this practice in the UK is the only thing fuelling the seemingly endless debate about it - after all, the technical implications and the pros and cons of A-frames versus traditional trailers are hardly mind-bogglingly complex. The chances of me towing a vehicle behind my motorhome are nil, but, if I were considering doing so, I'd want to address the legality aspect. This is not because I'm obsessively keen on adhering to motoring laws - I probably break speed limits every time I drive - but because I like to know what the chances of me getting away with acting illegally are. When it comes to motoring, I rate pragmatism well above issues of conscience or morality. The attitude of UK A-frame suppliers seems to be that, as there have been no successful prosecutions in this country, as our police (perfectly understandably) aren't enthusiastic about delving into the nooks and crannies of trailer legislation as it applies to A-frames, and as our insurance companies seem happy enough, then that makes everything OK. If you are A-frame towing outside the UK and the police confront you, then waving a piece of paper Harry Potter-like in front of the police officer's face will protect you from any charges. However, Vi and Brian Becconsall's experience (and 42 Euros fine) recounted on page 15 of January 2007 MMM suggests that Spanish police at least are immune to magic paper! There was also a relevant reader's letter in June 2007's "Camping-Car" magazine. The writer said he had seen 'foreigners' towing cars via A-frames and he thought this method looked very practical. But he'd never seen anyone French doing it, so was it legal in France? The editorial reply was that this type of towing was absolutely forbidden for French-registered vehicles and that was why A-frames were not marketed in that country. If a French motorist wanted to tow a car, the only solution was to employ a conventional trailer suitable for the car's size and weight. So we've got France and Spain as countries where car-towing on an A-frame is apparently not a 'grey area' but against their national law and, presumably, their police forces are well aware of this. This suggests to me that, if you are stopped by French or Spanish police and try the paper-waving trick, there's a fair chance it won't work - it certainly didn't work with the Becconsalls! The predictable response to an observation like this is on the lines of "Well, I've been A-frame towing in the UK and Continental Europe for 'n' years and I've never been stopped or fined". So what, I've been breaking UK and Continental European speed-limits for closing 50 years and I've only been stopped twice and fined once. But I know full well that, should I contravene speed limits, that I shall be breaking the law and I don't (as some motorcaravanners appear to wish to do) overlook the law-breaking factor even though I may choose to ignore it. A technical question. I was under the impression that an 'un-braked trailer' was specifically a trailer that wasn't equipped with brakes. Hence a trailer fitted with brakes (irrespective of its weight) could not be described as "un-braked" just because its brakes happened to be inoperative. Is this correct? If it is, then all the 750kg 'un-braked' car-towing stuff seems to go out the window as, if you tow a vehicle with any of its wheels in contact with the road, whether the vehicle be FunTec, Ferrari or Frankia motorhome it's going to have brakes and, because it then can't be classed as an un-braked trailer, the brakes will have to be operative. Just idle curiosity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Three points: 1. Trailer/towing law is currently undergoing EU updating to ensure the same law applies across the EU. Don't be surprised if A-Frame towing is made definitively illegal, as it already is in most other EU countries. It'll take a few years yet to get into UK Law, so you're prob OK for a while. 2. A well fitted A-Frame system is probably at least as safe, if not safer than a trailer - but that doesn't make it legal. 3. A badly fitted one - and mine was, by the leading supplier of such systems - is potentially lethal. Because of a fitting error, the over-run brake stayed 'on' even when the motorhome's brakes were released. Result: The brakes, then the wheels, bearings and tyres, overheat to a dangerous level - mine reached 85 degrees C. Fortunately I had the car fitted with radio remote sensors on each wheel, so the in-cab alarm went off, and I was able to stop. Long-term result was that the front wheel bearings on the towed car needed replacement at not inconsiderable cost. So it's not all sunshine and roses! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Norton Posted July 26, 2007 Author Share Posted July 26, 2007 Thanks to all, well most, for your thoughtful responses, particularly to Derek U and Mel E, who have obviously studied the subject in some depth. I didn't mean to start another long, sometimes vitriolic, thread on the subject. It's just that I have been mulling over the question for a few months now, and have had difficulty getting responses from those who should be fully aware of the exact legal situation. My guidance came, initially, from "Notes on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport", an informative document that is quite specific on the points I mentioned. For my wife and I it's a question of do we (a) hire a car where we happen to staying at the time or (b) tow a car of our own. If the car to be towed is a second vehicle (3rd if you count the motorhome) one has to weigh the costs of tax, insurance, maintenance & depreciation against the occasional hire costs. Looks like (a) may be our best option. To all contributors, yes I mean all, however you do it, enjoy your motorhome. Tony N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-07-26 6:57 AM peter - 2007-07-25 10:41 PM As nobody has ever been prosecuted for using one, I think a precedent has already been set and would probably result in a failed prosecution if it was brought. If I was going to tow a car I would definately get one. What's the point of towing a car on a trailer and having to store it on site. What would happen if the trailer was then stolen in your absence. Two vehicles to then have to drive home. I don't think so. Peter, a precedent cannot be set until a court case is brought. That's where the precedent comes from, a previous case being one that has gone before. As there has been no previous case there cannot be a precedent set. D.Post deleted as thread now apparently closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Sick of this subject!!!Can't we ban any more discussion on this until someone comes up with a definitve law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Trouble is John there are new people coming into motorhoming and this forum all the time who haven't seen it all before/heard all the arguments so it will continue to crop up from time to time. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-07-25 8:14 PM omar - 2007-07-25 7:24 PM Mel Why so remarkable Because it suggests you have a total disregard for the laws of the land you live in and therefore any and every body else's rights, safety and feelings. Clear enough? D. Sorry Dave, I'm with Omar. If there was any real safety issue we'd have all heard of dozens of accidents by now, especially in the States, where they use A-frames in a big way. And I haven't heard of a single one. It really riles me to be told that something is impossible and/or murderously dangerous in the UK when it is being done quite happily in other countries without any problems. No, I'm afraid it's just another excuse to push us around by the horrible bastards who constitute the politicians and civil servants of this once-great country. (Both civil and servants belong in quotes.) My view is if they try to fine me, I'll refuse to pay. Their only recourse then will be to lock me up; given our chronicaly overcrowded prisons where they can't even find space for rapists, exactly where are they going to lock me up? And even if they can free up a cell, first they have to find me, which could be tricky as I am continuously on the move, sometimes in the UK, but more often out of it. End of rant. On a more practical note, I would refer everyone to the letter in July MMM in which the writer referred to motorhome-and-toad as "inverted caravanning", where the caravan tows the car instead of the usual way round. He couldn't see any benefit in this, and nor for the life of me can I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 As Far as I'm concerned if somone as 'well versed' in safety matters concerning motohomes and caravans as John Wickersham says that they are 'OK' that's good enough for me. The legality or otherwise is for the courts, i'm ONLY intrested in whether it's safe or not. The Laws in this Country are getting VERY cloudy with lots of 'smoke and mirrors' I'm refering to that 'maker of many new 'lawbreakers' the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. who says that if you own a Motorhome any older than 2001 vintage AND live in the Greater London Area. You automatically become a Lawbreaker !!!! Madness absolute Madness ! The Lunatic really IS running the asylum. The Law SHOULD be a Respectable and Honest institution, Just lately it is falling into disrepute. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Chill Bill, my response to Omar was referring to his comment "life's too short to worry about legal" which, to me at least, demonstrates a total lack of regard for anyone other than himself. Nobody has said that towing with an A frame is dangerous it just doesn't comply with current or likely future legislation. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hi, I'm going OT again....sorry.....but I'm qurying the difference between safe, and legal, and tolerated. The law requires, and has done for a long time, that a car will have two ways of operating the "service" brake (usually dual-line hydraulics) so if one system fails, you still have some braking. The law also requires that the brakes are not dependent on the engine. Now consider the Citroen BX. Has anyone here ever driven one with the pump belt broken, or a burst pipe? Or even been towed with the engine switched of. Believe me, it is terrifying. Safe? Very, until something goes wrong. Legal? Well they all have Type Approval. Tolerated? Yes. I'll get my coat. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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