Emission Zones.

[Rayjsj]

Have I read the Rules on 'Our Ken's' latest brainwave correctly ?

All motorhomes older than 2001 vintage either owned by people living in Greater London or just 'Passing through' are to be subject to a DAILY £100 charge/fine. ?? Is he for REAL ?? surely the Bastille got ransacked for less of an injustice !!

Not ALL of us can afford the luxury of 'nearly new' Motorhomes.

 

If ever a law needs overturning it's this one.

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

[GJH]

Rayjsj - 2007-07-27 11:28 PM

 

Have I read the Rules on 'Our Ken's' latest brainwave correctly ?

All motorhomes older than 2001 vintage either owned by people living in Greater London or just 'Passing through' are to be subject to a DAILY £100 charge/fine. ?? Is he for REAL ?? surely the Bastille got ransacked for less of an injustice !!

It isn't all motorhomes. For a start it only applies to diesel engined vehicles, not vehicles powered by petrol or LPG.

 

The dates at which different MHs are affected vary based on vehicle weight. Details at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/vehicles/2535.aspx.

 

The test isn't age but compliance with Euro standards - and it is assumed that post-2001 vehicles will meet those standards without modification. Some older vehicles may meet the standards but others will need modification to do so.

 

Graham

[Bill]

GJH - 2007-07-28 7:20 AM

 

The test isn't age

 

Graham

 

Whatever happened to “grandfathering”??

 

I’m with Rayjsj: A bas la guillotine!

 

 

[Mel E]

Bill,

So called 'grandfather rights' in new legislation was only ever a dispensation to help move past changes.

 

For example, while you retained grandfarther rights to C1, etc., you're probebly not even aware that, prior to changes in driver licencing in the late 50s/early 60s, you lost the right to drive C vehicles, which you previously possessed. (You had 6 months to demonstrate experience, and then it went with the winds.......)

 

Mel E

====

[Mel E]

Incidentally, the LEZ covers not just London, but virtually anywhere inside the M25.

 

Just don't take any short-cuts.

 

I have to say that, since the London Congestion Zone came in, expamded this year and now costs £8, I've simply stopped going to London for those casual shopping trips. I used to buy HiFi and TVs down Tottenham Court Road - but no longer. Their loss!

 

Mel E

====

[GJH]

Bill - 2007-07-28 8:40 AM

 

Whatever happened to “grandfathering”??

I'm still doing it - one grandson and one granddaughter so far :D :D

 

Graham

[GJH]

Mel E - 2007-07-28 12:06 PM

 

I have to say that, since the London Congestion Zone came in, expamded this year and now costs £8, I've simply stopped going to London for those casual shopping trips.====

Living so far from London we have to have a very good reason to go in the first place :-D

 

Graham

[Basil]

Hi Mel and Graham,

 

We live comparatively close to London but avoid going there like the plague. However I believe the point that is being missed is this will not be confined to London it is just 'Red Ken' jumping in first eventually there will be restrictions everywhere.

Also when people think London it needs to be understood this is not just London but the whole of the Greater London area, this includes the whole of the inside of the M25 plus bits outside of the M25. For instance anyone who used to use say Cranham Motorhomes for their workshops will be entering the LEZ. Not been able to determine whether the part of the A127 that feeds to Cranham will be exempt up to the next flyover at Upminster, which is part of the Greater London area, to allow access. There are other problems like this all round the zone, the Lea valley is within the LEZ for instance (I believe you know that one Graham) as well as many Caravan club and private sites and CL's.

Now bear in mind that this is just the start we may end up with obsolete vehicles that cannot be used in many other parts of the country, as well as Europe, that means any sold before 2006.

Whilst I accept that the reasons behind this is the demands made by Heavy Vehicle use, or heavy use of vehicles, on a very regular basis i.e. buses, lorries, delivery vans etc, I believe to include 'private' lightly used vehicles in the punitive charge is over the top and completely wrong, I am not sure that it is right even for the other users at the costs being imposed.

There will be many owners of these vehicles that will be residing within the LEZ that will be unable to move their vehicles without charges of £100 per day, how can that be right? Like with 'Red Ken's' Congestion Zone charges what about when you are detoured off the M25 due to an accident and enter the LEZ, that will cost you £100, the same as it costs you the Congestion Zone Charge now if you are directed into by Police or inadvertantly enter it (I know this to be so because I unsuccessfully challenged a CC ticket for non payment sent to me after being directed off the A406 into the Zone by Police after an accident had occured in front of me at an underpass).

This is the reason that I raised this question earlier on other threads, because I believe that most people have not fully grasped the implications.

If conversion to the vehicle can make it compliant, then that is fine, but from what I have been hearing the cost (at around £3000 for the average motorhome) will be as punitive as the charge itself.

 

Bas

[Bill]

Guess we’ll all have to start praying that Boris the Buffoon wins the election.

 

Just a thought: this whole LEZ thing isn’t just a story spread by Boris’s campaign team is it? If so it’s working a treat.

 

 

 

[GJH]

Hello Bas,

 

Yes, we used the Lea Valley site last January on our annual visit - and we are thinking of using Abbey Wood next January so both within the LEZ. Happily for us our van was first registered in March 2004 so is deemed to be compliant.

 

I never realised that you could be done for the CC if you only entered the zone on the direction of a police officer; that seems crazy to me.

 

The reason we go to London each January if for an English Civil War Society parade. We had already realised that a number of the equipment lorries would be liable to pay the LEZ charge but, whilst I have seen mention of the implications for residents, it hadn't struck me that so many businesses could be adversely affected.

 

I wonder if business people and organisers of the many events which take place in London (e.g. at Olympia, Earls Court and the like) have fully understood the implications. There again, maybe most of them have much newer vehicles anyway so won't be affected.

 

The latest CC magazine has an article about the LEZ and says "this has serious implications for members" but doesn't say anything about any ongoing lobbying.

 

 

Bill,

Dunno about Boris doing anything - being a cyclist he might just tell us all to get on our bikes :-)

 

Graham

[Basil]

Bill - 2007-07-28 6:22 PM

 

Guess we’ll all have to start praying that Boris the Buffoon wins the election.

 

Just a thought: this whole LEZ thing isn’t just a story spread by Boris’s campaign team is it? If so it’s working a treat.

 

 

 

If only it was. Go to the TfL website for the whole lowdown of their implementation proposals.

It is actually an EU decision that 'Red Ken' has jumped on probably to make a financial killing and keep his name up there.

 

Bas

[Basil]

GJH - 2007-07-28 6:41 PM

 

Hello Bas,

 

Yes, we used the Lea Valley site last January on our annual visit - and we are thinking of using Abbey Wood next January so both within the LEZ. Happily for us our van was first registered in March 2004 so is deemed to be compliant.

 

 

Graham

 

Hi Graham,

 

I think you may not realise that as you are pre 2006 registered you may find that far from being compliant you may only have a bit of extra grace, unless your vehicle was EuroIV compliant before the required date of 2006. To find out for definate put your registration into the compliancy page on the TfL website and it will tell you where you stand according to their database.

Another thought, if you are under the extra couple of years grace consider what it may do to your resale value, as for example if I was in the market for a change of van I would no longer entertain a non compliant vehicle so along with my own van I believe there will be a market with a big hole in the bottom and a glut of motorhomes once everyone understands the implications of this.

 

Bas

[colin]

If the congestion charge was such a bad thing why is ken still there? I think the same applies to LEZ, most people in london will be happier with anything that might improve air quality, whatever a minority like ourselves might like.

[Bill]

GJH - 2007-07-28 6:41 PM

 

I never realised that you could be done for the CC if you only entered the zone on the direction of a police officer; that seems crazy to me.

 

 

I wonder how you would stand if you refused the direction of a police officer to enter the CC zone on the grounds that you didn't plan to pay the congestion charge?

 

[GJH]

Basil - 2007-07-28 6:54 PM

 

Hi Graham,

 

I think you may not realise that as you are pre 2006 registered you may find that far from being compliant you may only have a bit of extra grace, unless your vehicle was EuroIV compliant before the required date of 2006. To find out for definate put your registration into the compliancy page on the TfL website and it will tell you where you stand according to their database.

Our MTPLM is 2900 Kg - small but perfectly formed :-D - so we come into the Large Van category and I'm happy to say we are OK. When I first tried inputting the Reg No on the compliancy page it came out with a null result but I've tried it subsequently and it's confirmed we will be OK.

 

I take your point about resale values etc though and I have every sympathy with people who will be adversely affected.

 

Graham

[Bill]

Basil - 2007-07-28 6:16 PM

 

If conversion to the vehicle can make it compliant, then that is fine, but from what I have been hearing the cost (at around £3000 for the average motorhome) will be as punitive as the charge itself.

 

Bas

 

 

Just had a thought.

 

The basic chemistry of emissions is that LPG has a much lower percentage of carbon (by weight) than diesel, so produces less CO2, and also has a small molecule, which eliminates the problem of “unburnt hydrocarbon fractions” – particulates and black smoke to the rest of us.

 

A few months ago I was chatting to a pal in Australia, bewailing the lack of power of my old van and the price of diesel in Europe in general and the UK in particular. He told me about a company in Oz which has found a way to run a diesel (partially) on LPG, with a substantial gain in power. They have an agent in the UK.

 

He sent me the details, but I decided against (mainly because my touring plans heavily involve Greece and LPG availability there is almost non-existent), and binned them. So, what follows is from memory and should not be taken as gospel.

 

This product does not entirely replace diesel; I assume the reason you still need some is to lubricate the injector pump. If you run out of LPG you can still run your engine entirely on diesel, but then of course you lose the benefits.

 

The benefits include a power increase of about 25%, smoother running, reduced emissions and lower fuel costs. Against that is the nuisance of having to buy two types of fuel.

 

It suddenly occurred to me that the emissions may be reduced enough to comply with LEZ. The cost was around £1500 – about half the figure Bas is suggesting – and of course you would claw back at least some of that through lower fuel bills.

 

I have to say that if all this works I should be very tempted to switch off the LPG every time I entered the LEZ!!

>:-(

[Basil]

Hi Bill,

 

Good thought, but any conversion has to be VOSA approved and raise the emmision quality to Euro IV compliancy. Currently, as I understand it only two companies are so approved and furthermore they are really derived from the conversion of large trucks and buses hence with little competition they are able to come up with the prices they do for what is basically a modified exhaust system with inbuilt particulate filter. At £3000 for an exhaust that in standard form costs around £65 I would be interested to know what makes them this expensive. I accept that there may be a Cat required but hey on my current car that has two, V8, they are only £450 each.

 

Bas

 

Bas

[Vernon B]

GJH - 2007-07-28 7:20 AM

 

Rayjsj - 2007-07-27 11:28 PM

 

Have I read the Rules on 'Our Ken's' latest brainwave correctly ?

All motorhomes older than 2001 vintage either owned by people living in Greater London or just 'Passing through' are to be subject to a DAILY £100 charge/fine. ?? Is he for REAL ?? surely the Bastille got ransacked for less of an injustice !!

It isn't all motorhomes. For a start it only applies to diesel engined vehicles, not vehicles powered by petrol or LPG.

 

The dates at which different MHs are affected vary based on vehicle weight. Details at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/vehicles/2535.aspx.

 

The test isn't age but compliance with Euro standards - and it is assumed that post-2001 vehicles will meet those standards without modification. Some older vehicles may meet the standards but others will need modification to do so.

 

Graham

 

That's a relief Graham, for a moment I thought this was a way of softening us up for accepting that emmission charges was another acceptable way of taxing us.

 

By the way anyone else noticed that "they" have stopped talking about "global warming", its now "climate change". Nothing to do with the fact that the flooding has been attributed to a cold area in the pacific or that Austrialia is experiencing the coldest winter on record I suppose.

 

Vernon

 

 

 

 

[Basil]

colin - 2007-07-28 8:14 PM

 

If the congestion charge was such a bad thing why is ken still there? I think the same applies to LEZ, most people in london will be happier with anything that might improve air quality, whatever a minority like ourselves might like.

 

Valid point Colin, however not all of Londons residents are in favour of the charge, in fact one of the reasons that it has gone up to £8 is to cover the costs of running the system, which is making huge losses, as the alternative was to put additional amounts onto the Council Tax bills and that was resisted by residents.

I think to answer your question of why is he still there is one of no viable alternative, much the same as Mr Blair and his Government over the past two elections.

But lets not get into the politics behind this, the same EU Directive has been implemented in various German cities and I believe is known as the 'Umwelt' (? spelling) charge however it is a variable, according to vehicle type, but more reasonable charge of around €10 per day for the mid grouping, not the punitive £100 per day being levied by Ken. I can also see that they may be trying to hit the biggest polluters ie large trucks but I say again I believe it is overkill to hit little used vehicle with the same level of charge.

 

Bas

 

Bas

[Vernon B]

Anyone thought that the problem of air pollution in London might have more to do with the population density rather than the number of pre 2002 diesels on the road? But that's a taboo topic as far as "climate change" is concerned, sorry.

 

 

[Bill]

colin - 2007-07-28 8:14 PM

 

If the congestion charge was such a bad thing why is ken still there?

 

 

Perhaps because our education system has deteriorated to the point that there is no longer anybody capable of making a guillotine?

 

[GJH]

Vernon B - 2007-07-29 4:01 PM

 

Anyone thought that the problem of air pollution in London might have more to do with the population density rather than the number of pre 2002 diesels on the road?

Aw come one now Vernon. It ain't all of the population of London that's dense. That's just the impression Eastenders gives. I've spoken to a few and some of them are quite clever :D :D :D

 

To be more serious though, I'm sure your point is a good one - and applicable to some other large towns/cities as well.

 

Graham

[Mel E]

During consultation for the LEZ, most leisure bodies that would be affected got together under the auspices of the CCPR (Central Council for Physical Recreation) and I was on that body representing Gliding.

 

The Caravan Club, Caravan Council, Yatching and Horsing were also well repesented amongst others. The body appealed very hard to have all leisure vehicles excluded, but seem to have failed.

 

A key problem seems to be the technology: the LEZ will be controlled by the same sort of automatic camera system used for LCZ. Unfortunately, the system cannot distinguish leisure vehicles, and the data it uses from the DVLA database is apparently not well enough coded to enable it to do so. So we are caught!

 

Mel E

====

[Mel E]

LONDON MAYORAL ELECTIONS:

 

I liked the suggestion in the D Tel that, if Boris Johnson is selected as the Tory Candidate, then the election will be a case of:

 

- a very intelligent man masquerading as a buffoon

 

against

 

- a buffoon trying to pretend he's intelligent.

 

Such is politics in today's Britain!

 

Mel E

====

[GJH]

Mel E - 2007-07-30 12:20 PM

A key problem seems to be the technology: the LEZ will be controlled by the same sort of automatic camera system used for LCZ. Unfortunately, the system cannot distinguish leisure vehicles, and the data it uses from the DVLA database is apparently not well enough coded to enable it to do so. So we are caught!====

Typical of the half baked response I would expect from TfL (by the way that comment is not aimed at you Mel)

 

I received a PCN from TfL about 21 months ago for driving in a bus lane. The photo on the PCN was of a Renault Clio with the number plate of my car - a Citroen Berlingo which had been nowhere near London at that time.

 

When I complained that TfL should have checked the vehicle's details properly instead of just pulling my personal data from DVLA I received excuses about the system from an abusive manager - but I understand that they have subsequently changed their system to enable such checking.

 

There is no reason why their system should not be set up to ask for body type so that they could check (manually rather than automatically if necessary) and allow vehicles with a registered body type of Motor Caravan to enter the zone without charge.

 

Graham