Rubbing wheel arch #2!

[Pentland]

Right just got back from the weigh bridge.......

 

The vin plate says:-

3500kg

6000kg

1- 1850kg

2- 2000kg

 

I had two of us in the van, water tanks half full, motorbike and kit in the garage etc it weighed

3520kg gross..............

 

I then took it to Fiat who looked round it and said the wheel is rubbing on the plastic splash shield called the wheel arch lining which is no mega deal the airide kit will stop that!

Does all this sound ok to you very helpful people???

Regards

Keith

[Mel E]

It sounds like just what it is - you're breaking the law by being overloaded!

 

Whilst at the weighbridge you ought also to have got the weight of one axle - provided the weighbridge approaches are totally level, the other axle will be the difference between total weight and the weighed axle.

 

The Plate says:

 

- your Maximum fully laden weight must NOT exceed 3500 Kgs - you do by only 20KGs, but put some food in the fridge, water in the waste tanks, clothes, etc., and you'll be well over the top.

 

- the Maximum Train Weight must not exceed 6000Kgs when towing. That means the ACTUAL weights of van and trailer may not exceed 6000Kgs

 

- you must not exceed 1850 on the front axle and 2000 on the rear axle.

 

My best guess is, given your total weight and the fact that you have a motorbike in the garage, that you are probably overweight on the rear axle. This is because the garage is behind the rear axle and so its load actually adds more than its own weight to that axle because of its leverage. The front axle is also lightened by the same leverage excess, leading to poorer traction and braking.

 

Weigh it as suggested and then come back here - pm me if you wish and I'll even send you a load calculator so you can redistribute things and get it legal and safe.

 

Mel E

====

 

[Mel E]

I should add that if you're going to fit an Airide kit, that will add significant further weight, hence reducing your load capacity even further. An Airide kit by itself does not change the 3500 Max Allowed Mass.

 

Mel E

====

[Pentland]

Thanks for that Mel, i'm now fuming and going to go back to the dealer ship and ask for a refund, i'm sick of this they sold it to me as a race truck!!!!

 

Take my bike out 150kg and the spares another 75kg, if you had 6 adults in the van i'd still be over weight!!!!!!!!!!!!

Average adult weighing 80kg?

 

Really not happy, >:-(

Watch this space and steer clear of Southdowns motorhomes........

[Thai Bry]

Pentland - 2007-07-31 12:23 PM Thanks for that Mel, i'm now fuming and going to go back to the dealer ship and ask for a refund, i'm sick of this they sold it to me as a race truck!!!! Take my bike out 150kg and the spares another 75kg, if you had 6 adults in the van i'd still be over weight!!!!!!!!!!!! Average adult weighing 80kg? Really not happy, >:-( Watch this space and steer clear of Southdowns motorhomes........

Keith

Very sorry to hear about your issues, but be very careful with dashing in and demanding your monies back. Did you get clarification from the dealer re your specific uses you were thinking of for your van.Stand back a bit and stay cool if possible.

The only other suggestion is to maybe look at an enclosed trailer to hold your bike, spares & tool kit, but again picking up on mel E's observations, you've got to be careful of the overall train weight of this assembly.

Best of luck with the dealer anyway and with your options.

Thai

[Pentland]

Right went back with my pal who is a legal guy...

 

They know what the van was for as they are sponsoring me, i.e they took pictures of the bike in the back for promo stuff etc...

 

We went back to the weigh bridge and weighed the rear axcel as suggested by Mel and it was 2030kg so not mega over, Southdowns then rang the chassis people and they said it can take 3850kg if being equiped with the Airide kit, so they will change the log book to suit etc something that has been a number of times they said.

 

So they are hopefuuly going to pay the costs and get this sorted for me, especially as i sent my mate down there Saturday and he spent £65'000 on my reccomendation, i did tell them that i had sent him down which did go down quite well.. *-)

 

So hopefuuly all will be sorted and my wheel arches relieved!

Keith

[Brian Kirby]

Pentland - 2007-07-31 11:23 AM Right just got back from the weigh bridge....... The vin plate says:- 3500kg 6000kg 1- 1850kg 2- 2000kg I had two of us in the van, water tanks half full, motorbike and kit in the garage etc it weighed 3520kg gross.............. I then took it to Fiat who looked round it and said the wheel is rubbing on the plastic splash shield called the wheel arch lining which is no mega deal the airide kit will stop that! Does all this sound ok to you very helpful people??? Regards Keith

Keith

In your first post you said the tyre rubbed the wheel arch when "there was someone sitting at the table".  That makes me think you may carry more than one passenger when going away to races?  If so, the weighings you got from your weighbridge visit will not be reliable.

Second point, from what you have said above, and what you have said elsewhere, re-plating the van to 3,850Kg won't solve your problem.  All that is being proposed is to bring the GVW of your van up to the combined maxima of its two axles.  This will remedy your present infringement of the 3,500Kg GVW limit, but it will do nothing for your 2,000Kg rear axle limit, and it is 90% certain that your problem lies at your rear axle.  Air Ride will not increase this 2,000Kg limit, which is an engineering limit, based on more factors than just the springing.

Whatever figure the vehicle is re-plated to carry, the rear axle cannot, legally or safely, sustain over 2,000Kg.  It is not more GVW you need, it is more rear axle capacity and neither Air Ride, nor increasing the GVW, will give you that.

It is a shame you didn't do as I originally suggested, and take the van, fully laden (meaning exactly as you'd normally load it for a race meeting), to the weighbridge, and then weigh both axles.  If you had done this, you'd now know how big a problem you really have.  My strong impression remains that the rear axle is well over it's 2,000Kg limit, but until you measure it laden, you just can't know.  It's back to the weighbridge, I'm afraid!

Last point: does your driving license entitle you to drive vehicles plated at over 3,500Kg?  You'll need a class C1 license for 3,850Kg, but it still won't fix that 2,000Kg rear axle limit!  If you want a workable solution for this van, get a trailer for the bike.  You have a 6,000Kg GTW limit so, subject to your driving license and any other restrictions, you should be quite legal towing a trailer with your bike and all its gear.

[tonyishuk]

Pentland - 2007-07-31 11:23 AM

 

Right just got back from the weigh bridge.......

 

The vin plate says:-

3500kg

6000kg

1- 1850kg

2- 2000kg

 

Keith

 

The 6K figure is the max train weight so in effect it means you can tow 2.5 ton trailer load.

 

Plan B maybe if you can do, is to carry bike, spares and all the dirty stuff ( men magazines etc) in the trailer. Leaving the motor home a nice relaxing place to be after a days racing (lol)

 

 

rgds

 

[Mel B]

When replating from 3500kg to 3850kg where does the extra carrying capacity go? I assume it is the maximum combined total of the 2 axles, ie 1850 and 2000 = 3850kg therefore that is how it can be done as a paper exercise with no physical changes to the motorhome (sorry if this sounds thick but just want to make sure I understand!).

 

So if that is the case then certainly having air-rides put on will solve the problem of the rubbing wheelarch BUT will in turn REDUCE the rear axle cargo load carrying capacity by the weight of the air-rides themselves, so will actually make the matter WORSE in the garage!

 

The only way to make use of the uprating of the van is to put some of the heavy items over the front axle to take up the excess load capacity there, whether this is feasible or not will depend on the motorhome storage (what van is it????).

 

The other thing to consider when replating to uprate is that it may affect your insurance, and will certainly affect your driving speed limits and road tolls.

 

Pentland ... Are you REALLY SURE that you will be happy with this solution????? Sounds like it's a bit of a 'bodge' to me. :-(

[Pentland]

I walk into my local motorhome show room back in March, telling them i race a bike alround the country and need a van to suit my needs!

 

I look at several Rimor homes and settle for the Fiat based Europeo 5 with garage 4.5m awning tv/dvd big fridge shower the lot perfect.

 

Go and get your bike make sure it all fits and we're take some photo's fpr a promo stuff and send to the local paper etc......

 

Well it has worked very well and has done what i ahve asked of it but then theres is the slight rubbing on the wheel arch when turing left..........

 

You all know the rest, i don't think this is the van for me, and poorly advised to. I have 3 races left this season so i wiil just have to get on with it what else can i do?

Then in September when the season is over i will trade it in and buy something better suited to my needs.

I can go marching back saying this is the wrong van you've advised me wrong give me another one more suited i think they'll send me packing. I have learnt the hard way.

 

The only good thing is the van is A1 condition only been used for 9 weekends and will only have 3000 miles on the clock.

 

So i will need a van the same sort of layout as this Rimor but with a garage and suitable payload..........

 

If i wanted to tow a trailer i would still be using my works van with bike in the back and a caravan????????????

 

Help, last time i promise, i'm the innocent party here and getting not alot of help with my dealer, seems a tad unfair, I run my own Plumbing company and would not be very sucsessful if i behaved like this telling you that boiler was fine for your needs then in the winter your house is freezing cold you call to complane so i bring you round a jumper?

Rant over.

Thanks for all your help guys and girls.

Keith Hooper

[Mel E]

Keith,

 

A couple of further points:

 

- ALL rear garages in motorhomes have a weight limit (some up to 200KGs, but other less) which is a structural limit caused by the conversion and the vehciles chassis. You need to check this.

 

- As stated, the uplating may only be to the sum of the two axle weights. If you want to do this, it's not just a simply matter of altering some paperwork: you will need a replacement vehicle plate showing the new weights, and you will have to go to the DVLA to change the vehicle from PLG to Private HGV, which will unfortunately limit you to 50mph on single carriageways and 60mph on dual carriageways - and much worse in some other countries, such as Germany (though it's actually the unladen weight, which must be over 3050 KIgs for your rig, which counts in the UK.

 

- The upplating will not solve the rear axle problem - indeed, as Mel B points out, fitting Airides will make it worse.

 

- You will not be able to use the full 3850 Kgs because, to do so, the load would have to be carefully balanced betwewen front and rear. Even if you managed this tricky task, one axle would immediately start to go overweight as you used up fuel!

 

- There are, in my experience, VERY FEW motorhomes with a plated MAM of 3500Kgs which have the load capacity and a garage to do what you want. At shows, you only have to walk around to see how many motorhomes are way overloaded by either garage contents or scooters on the back. You should have been advised to get a better chassis - one plated at 3850 by the manufacturer would give you a combined total on the axles of over 4 tonnes.

 

- Finally a point about trailers: the 6000Kgs is the maximum ACTUAL weights of trailer and motorhome and NOT their MAMs. So if the motorhome were loaded to, say 3400, you could legally tow a trailer (with a C!E licence) up to 2600 Kgs actual weight.

 

Mel E

====

[Philman]

Hi Pentland, just a thought about when you come to sell your A1 condition motorhome which has been used for 9 weekends in an overloaded condition, if you do not mention this to the potential buyer you will be breaking the law.

Phil.

[Pentland]

Can't win here!!

 

 

 

I'll sell it telling the potential customer i've ruined it and its for sale for £5000?

how many buliders vans do you see with bricks etc in the back do they weigh them every week ? Then when they sell them tell the buyer oooh once we were overloaded have to tell you that its the law?

 

Hmmm think not, go to a motorcross meeting and look at there motorhomes there nearly bottoming out in the field with so much weight.

 

I've been seen off and its cost me alot of money, coments like the one from Phill really are not what i need.

 

I'd like to thank you all for your help but lets leave it there.

 

Caravan for me i think.......... :-(

[Philman]

Hi Pentland, I'm very sorry if you have taken my comment the wrong way. We are only trying to help you. It would seem to me that you have a very good case to go back to the dealer and tell him that the vehicle he sold you is not fit for purpose. A purpose which you appear to have detailed to him quite clearly before purchase. You also suggested he was going to use photos he took to promote his business. It would therefore seem to be in his best interest to try and remedy the situation as bad publicity from this situation is obviously not in his best interest.

 

Phil.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Keith

In truth I think you made a couple of mistakes, but you have been poorly served by the dealership.  I think you probably bought in haste, and I think you may have thought the dealer would act as a knowing consultant and give you sound advice.  However, you have now begun to gain knowledge and experience of motorhomes, so you're unlikely to be caught out twice!  Few get it right first time. 

To carry 200Kg or so behind its rear axle, requires a particular kind of motorhome.  Rimor make one such, which they promote as a Racehome.  Other makers have suitably "butch" models but I'm sure, as Mel says, they'll all be well over 3,500Kg MAM, and they'll all be pricey.  I think you're looking for something around 4 tonnes, probably with rear wheel drive and twin rear wheels to handle the rear end load.

The real lesson of all this is that the only person who can do the research is Keith, because it is your money you're spending, and your requirements you're trying to meet. 

After you clear the present racing season, why not start spending a bit of time on motorhome research?  You'll get a shortlist quite quickly, because there won't be that many suitable vans in the field.  Apart from the Rimor Racehome (but do check Rimor's less than transparent weight declarations if you go this route) Hymer, Carthago, Niesmann, Frankia and Eura Mobil come to mind.

Good luck.

[Mel B]

Hi Pentland

 

We've got a Rimor Sailer 645TC, lthe ow profile garage model of your Europeo 5, the difference is that ours is on a Ford twin rear wheel base. However, I'd still be wary of carrying a heavy bike and a load of spares in the rear of ours as it has a very long overhang which exaggerates the weight in the garage.

 

There is also the Kentucky, which is basically the same as Rimor, under a different brand name. We got our Rimor from a company called RDH located at Kirkby in Ashfield (www.rdh.co.uk). They specialise in selling motorhomes to the biking fraternity, rather than being someone like Southdowns who sell them generally, and therefore don't do motorhome shows as they don't need to, they often attend bike events themselves so are quite knowledgeable about the needs of their 'customers'.

 

One question - you way about having 6 adults in the van, I assume whilst travelling. Our van only has seat belts for 5 (including the driver), is yours equipped with 6 seat belts? If not, then you shouldn't really be carrying a 6th passenger so that would save you 80kg, you could then redistribute your spares, putting more at the front, so that at least whilst you still have the van you would be legal and take the pressure of the rear wheel arch.

 

Me? I'd take the van back to Southdowns, let them see for themselves the problem, if they won't play ball, tell them you'll contact the paper to see if they'll do a 'human interest' piece on how let down you are ... worth a try. Hopefully things will get sorted to your satisfaction. Good luck.

 

Mel B

 

 

[Pentland]

Our argument was if you have 6 adults and no bike the van is still over weight!!!

 

It is sold as 6 berth with 6 seat belts.

 

That was my argument with them.

 

well its having the airide kit fitted today FOC, that will do me till September then as Brian has kindly stated i will not be caught out again.

 

On a second point i will be doing my home work but if anyone does see something that won't cost me to re-mortgage and would suit my needs please pm me or put it up on here.

I do read the mmm monthly but they tend to feature the bling bling vans.

Many thanks

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Keith

Just a further thought, I think you'll need to calculate how much payload you need at worst (i.e. is it 6 adults + gear + bike and spares etc, or two adults + bike and spares with only 6 persons seated when the bike isn't on board, or what?)  You'll also need to check very carefully how the manufacturer says they have calculated payload.  This should be consistent, but unfortunately isn't. 

To meet EN 1646-2 (which I believe Rimor does not claim to meet: there is no obligation on them to do so) this should be the Maximum Allowable Mass (MAM) [sometimes Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW)] minus the Mass in Running Order (MIRO).  MIRO should include at least the driver at 75Kg, 90% full fuel tank (some use 100%), full fresh water tank, and gas cylinder/s (this gets tricky: some calculate on the basis of the largest number of the largest cylinders that can be fitted, some only on a single cylinder where two would fit, and German manufacturers often quote 11Kg aluminium cylinders, which are common in Germany, but at 5/6 Kg each, weigh about half what a 13Kg steel UK cylinder weighs: 15Kg empty).  Anything you add, in the form of engine options, awnings (25-30Kg), satellite dish, aircon etc has to be deducted from the payload.  Passengers can be approximated at 75Kg each, but actuals will, eventually, count.  Don't forget kids grow, so what they weigh this year wil be wrong next year!

Our general clutter, clothes, etc adds around 250Kg just for two of us.  Add the options at, say another 50Kg, your passengers and their clutter, plus your bike and spares, and I think you'll need close to a tonne of payload to be safe.  At best, I don't think you'd get much change from 750Kg! 

To get this, you just need a big van.  I think you'll find all the suitable candidates will be around 3,750 to 4,000Kg MIRO (or more), and at that size and weight you will need the class C1 driving license. 

They certainly won't be cheap, even second-hand.  However, because of the size you need, and the fact that quite a few people overestimate their driving abilities, you may find that actually finding something secondhand in your size range is not be that much of a problem.  It will also have taken quite a hit in price due to first year depreciation, so will be a much more economical proposition that it was when new! 

However, you absolutely must do your own assessment of it's load carrying capabilities, and not rely on assurances from sales personnel - and you must also carefully check the boot load limit as well, because some have big boots, but with very restricted permissible loads. 

This game is an expensive minefield and mistakes are all too easy.  However, if you stick to the main agents for the makes they should be able to answer all your technical questions (or be able to find manuals that will!).  Be a bit careful of general sellers with just an odd one of the type you need, because they probably won't know it properly, albeit it may be a bit cheaper.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

[MandyAndy]

Hi,

 

We have a Rollerteam 600G, (second class citizens in many eyes). We have 6 seat belts, six beds. RWD, twin wheels, Ford transit. 3850 payload.

 

It cost us £30, 000 new with a 4.5 mtre Fiamma awing, SOG fitted, 110 gel battery, bbq point fitted all in.

 

Had few minor problems wobbly cupboard door, main door adjustment, shower holder tightened, alot less than most I have read about on here.

It has won awards in magazines including MMM but does anyone ever mention it , no sadly not, so I would stay away from it as it is obviously never going to resell in the future.

 

Corrr I feel better now, been dying to get that off my chest!!!!

 

Mandy

[davenewellhome]

Mandy, I think you need to check your weights, 3850 KGs PAYLOAD? Not a chance! Your GVW/MTPLM will be 3850 KGS your payload is the difference between that weight and the unladen weight, i.e. what the 'van actually weighs empty.

 

D.

[Mel B]

Mandy, don't despair, it may well be that the owners are so happy with their vans that they don't let on, so as not to risk others getting in on the act! :-S

 

My hubby has just told me to look for another motorhome .. why? It takes too long to wash the ruddy thing!!!(lol)

 

If you van had a 3850 payload, by heck that would allow an awful lot of wine to be brough back .... hic! B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

As a rule of thumb for motorhome buyers, it's wise to assume that coachbuilt motorhomes above 6 metres long are likely to weigh at least 3000kg in 'ready-to-drive' condition. (Ready-to-drive meaning that the motorhome has a full fuel tank, a notional 75kg driver, full fresh water tank and gas cylinders.)

 

OK, this is rough science, but it's a sensible starting point and allows a buyer to do some simple mental arithmetic to take into account the weight of passengers, accessories, luggage, bikes, etc. and get some early warning of a vehicle's suitability (or not) payload-wise.

 

It can also be surprising, when one studies the technical sections of base-vehicle manufacturers' brochures, how much variation in maximum axle-loadings there can be between makers and/or models. Another thing to beware of if you plan to carry weighty objects, especially if you've little option but to site them towards the motorhome's rear.

 

As a 2nd rule of thumb, if you are looking for a 'garage' motorhome design because you plan to carry heavy kit in that storage compartment, then you should probably concentrate on RWD models as these tend to have a higher rear axle-loading capacity than FWD equivalents.