Which Make/Which Dealer?

[armstrongpiper]

I have read many comments and complaints from dissatisfied buyers against their chosen Motorhome Brand and the Dealers who supplied and failed to fix their faults. I too have had 18 weary months of New Ownership, when there seems to be a never ending list of new problems to go back to the Dealer about. The Dealer tries but never quite achieves my full satisfaction.

We hear from the dissatisfied owners, but rarely the ones who are genuinely pleased with their vehicle and Dealer. So, what proportion of the buying public are happy as against those who are not?

And, can anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles? There I will go, next time!!

 

Neil B

[johnsandywhite]

armstrongpiper - 2007-08-10 2:27 PMcan anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles?

 

:-( I doubt very much that there is ANY such animal. Buyers of New Motorhomes here in the UK, in Europe and the USA ALL have complaints of fit and finish plus problems that arise in first using and operating them. Yes. There are some that MAY (???) be better than others? But in the long run? I advocate buying secondhand. ;-)

[robin]

Neil,

A few thought relating to my experience over the years.

I have had two new German 'vans (Burstner and Weinsberg) and one 9 month old English 'van (Bessacar), bought from 3 different dealers, Barrons, White Arches and Brownhills respectively.

I have had 'teething problems' with all of them and significant problems with one of them (the Bessacar).

I have also had 6 new caravans over the preceding years - all of them had teething problems.

I have no complaint against any of the above dealers as they have fixed all the problems under warranty without any hesitation.

My expectations may be low, but I do expect the habitation bits and bobs to need attention as they bed down under use from new. Cupboard doors may need re-alignment, the shower tray may not be sealed properly, that sort of thing.

I compare this to having a new kitchen fitted, where the fitter returns to sort out things that aren't quite right.

More serious problems shouldn't happen - I am thinking of the cupboard doors being too flimsy and snapping in two, the electrics being badly designed so that there was a big enough voltage drop to make the Truma boiler useless in the winter. (both of which happened on one of the above m/homes).

One of my lessons learned is to buy a 'van from a local dealer (and one that offers a courtesy car)

Both German 'vans have been well built, with the fixtures and fittings properly designed and installed for motorhome use. I have heard a few horror stories from Burstner owners though, so maybe I have been lucky.

 

 

 

 

[robin]

johnsandywhite - 2007-08-10 3:01 PM

 

armstrongpiper - 2007-08-10 2:27 PMcan anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles?

 

:-( I doubt very much that there is ANY such animal. Buyers of New Motorhomes here in the UK, in Europe and the USA ALL have complaints of fit and finish plus problems that arise in first using and operating them. Yes. There are some that MAY (???) be better than others? But in the long run? I advocate buying secondhand. ;-)

 

John,

I agree with your comments about new 'vans, but I have had worse problems with my one second hand 'van than with my two new ones.

Cheers

[w1ntersun]

Hi,

 

Ignore the picture that my old van and I havent taken a picture of my new one yet

 

I have just taken delivery of a hymer tramp 674 from Hymer uk ( Brownhills Group )

 

I cannot find a fault with the van yet. I cannot fault the curtesy and helfulness of the sales team.

 

I got a very good deal ( IMHO ) and look forward to letting you know if I incur any problems.

 

 

Richard

[BGD]

As we are only on our first van (and it's a 15 year-old "dog-van") I have no personal experience of buying such things brand new.

 

But I have to say, that if I had paid 30, or 40, or even £50,000 for a brand new vehicle, I'd be absolutely furious if anything was not perfect. We demand this from a new car/bus/lorry. I do not see why we should lower our expectations just because it's a motorhome.

 

Personally I simply don't accept the argument that it's "normal" to have to go back to have snagging/problems of fit and finish/operation sorted out.

It isn't normal.

It is a reflection of shoddy manufacture, or shoddy or ill-designed conversion, installation, assembly, testing, and/or of piss-poor quality control, training, and business systems.

 

In the car industry, that was the UK manufacturers' attitude - and the Japanese simply wiped them out with their alternative approaches: Total Quality, Right First Time, Design for Fault-Free Manufacture, etc.

 

I may be wrong, and I'm certainly new to this motorhoming world - but my feeling so far after reading all the tales of woe on this and three other such forums, is that all the van manufacturers and dealers have a LONG LONG way to go.

It would seem that they still haven't grasped that the customer is:

1. King. He pays all their salaries.

2. A free, walking talking future advert for them for many years (if they do totally satisfy him); or

3. The person who loses them millions in possible future sales (and profits) with his complaining for years and years to others if their product and service doesn't meet his expectations.

 

In all the businesses I have ever worked in, we have spent millions of pounds/euros/dollars, and tens of thousands of man hours to drill this ethos into every single employee; and make everyone understand that it's actually a lot cheaper and thus more profitable in the long run to DO IT RIGHT FIRST TIME.

Design it right. Assemble it right. Test it right.

Then you get products which don't come back, and customers who do.

 

In a small, niche european marketplace such as the one for new motorhomes, I reckon that the first manufacturer and dealer network who actually puts the investment, the time, and the effort in to driving such principles right throughout their organisation, will simply murder the competition.

Judging by all the comments from dissatified customers at the moment, it simply ain't happened yet. It's now 2007; and it STILL hasn't happened in this industry yet.

 

Until and unless it does, I think even if I had the money to buy new, I'd still go for a one or two year old van, in the hope that all the built-in faults had been put right.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

[Guest caraprof]

armstrongpiper - 2007-08-10 2:27 PM I have read many comments and complaints from dissatisfied buyers against their chosen Motorhome Brand and the Dealers who supplied and failed to fix their faults. I too have had 18 weary months of New Ownership, when there seems to be a never ending list of new problems to go back to the Dealer about. The Dealer tries but never quite achieves my full satisfaction. We hear from the dissatisfied owners, but rarely the ones who are genuinely pleased with their vehicle and Dealer. So, what proportion of the buying public are happy as against those who are not? And, can anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles? There I will go, next time!! Neil B

There's one telling phrase in your post which is:

The Dealer tries but never quite achieves my full satisfaction.

Are you perhaps ultra finicky because if a dealer is genuinely trying to please then, within reason, he ought to be able to do so?

I suggest this without any malice, you may well have genuine grievances but there is no doubt that some people do have unreasonable expectations.

I also suspect that major complaints are in a tiny minority, but of course they are the ones that get aired. People who are happy with their purchase and treatment tend not to shout about it quite as much. I for example, bought a brand new motorhome a few months ago and I'm very satisfied with it.

In my opinion there is a growing trend towards unreasonable consumer expectations and if I could give one example.

First of all, in my firm, we go to great lengths to treat people fairly and to solve problems, but only if the complaint is fair and they themselves are reasonable. If they're not then we politely ask them to leave and never return!

A few weeks ago, we sold a camera by mail order. It was a decent mid-range digital Leica. A few days later it came back with a complaint and a request to replace it with a new one. The customer said that there was a blemish on the metal top-plate. We genuinely could see nothing! So we phoned him to ask for clarification, at which he told us exactly where this so-called small blemish was, but to see it you had to look with a strong magnifying glass!

At that point we told him that we would rather just refund his money and keep the camera. He was a little surprised that we no longer wanted to do business with him and asked if we didn't want to make money, to which we politely replied that we'd rather not thank you.

We do this because there are a few customers who are simply not worth the aggravation and when they realise that you'd rather lose profit than deal with them, we hope that it may make them stop and think as to what is and isn't a reasonable expectation.

But to reiterate and before I'm jumped on, I will again stress that for 99.9% of my customers, nothing is too much trouble for us and we'll go to any lengths to sort them out.

Finally I would add that our policy hasn't done us any harm. We have a loyal customer base, are still trading profitably, whilst Jessops is on the verge of collapse, and unlike most of our competitors we continue to expand, with a new shop opening in a few weeks.

[david lloyd]

I agree with much of what BGD says - it does seem like de-je-vue when you look back at the car industry. I have also been invloved in Total Quality Management and not only would this bring back customers to the selling dealer (and, through them, the manufacturer) but it would keep their profits healthy - even the dealers/manufacturers that correct problems have to loose some of their profits to do so.

 

I have had vehicles from the following:

 

Autosleeper

Compass

IH

Damon

Winnebago

Autocruise

Knaus

 

The latter, german built, motorhome is without the doubt the best of them all in terms of build quality - we would be happy to return when it is time to change.

 

Regards, David

 

 

[KD]

caraprof what your firm called do you have a website

[Guest caraprof]

K&D - 2007-08-10 7:28 PM caraprof what your firm called do you have a website

I have strong views about not using a forum to promote my business but if you are interested anyway I've sent you a PM with my website's address, but as I said, I won't do business with you myself.

[BGD]

Caraprof - could you PM it to me too please.

 

Thanks,

 

Bruce.

[armstrongpiper]

Very interesting views expressed, especially in relation to the way the British Motor Industry was blown away. Caravans and Motorcaravans, being more a niche and specialised market, are probably a bit immune to such fierce foreign competition, but should still beware.

In reply to Caraprof, I don't think I'm being too finicky. An example of my frustration is the leaking Fresh Water tank which the manufacturer started when fitting a new Level Probe, and the Dealer has not yet cured after three attempts. It still dribbles water onto the deck. Their next move is to fit a new tank. 'Get it Right First Time', my A--e!!!

Are there any satisfied Swift/Bessacarr owners out there - I rather fancied a Bessacarr E460 to replace my current van, but reading this Forum has seriously worried me.

 

Neil B

[Mick H.]

armstrongpiper - 2007-08-10 2:27 PM

 

I have read many comments and complaints from dissatisfied buyers against their chosen Motorhome Brand and the Dealers who supplied and failed to fix their faults. I too have had 18 weary months of New Ownership, when there seems to be a never ending list of new problems to go back to the Dealer about. The Dealer tries but never quite achieves my full satisfaction.

We hear from the dissatisfied owners, but rarely the ones who are genuinely pleased with their vehicle and Dealer. So, what proportion of the buying public are happy as against those who are not?

And, can anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles? There I will go, next time!!

 

Neil B[/quote

 

 

DREAM ON BROTHER, DREAM ON!

[Vernon B]

armstrongpiper - 2007-08-10 2:27 PM

 

So, what proportion of the buying public are happy as against those who are not?

And, can anyone tell me of a brand of vehicle which doesn't have teething problems (or even problems arising later) and the perfect Dealer who supplies these miracles? There I will go, next time!!

 

Neil B

 

Unfortunately Neil I think you've got to accept that your experiences are the norm. You may well get people on this thread recommending a particular brand but their experience is, in my view, a lucky chance rather than a reliable guide to a good product. All this is down to the fact that new motorhomes are no more than "prototypes" manufactured in such a way that one good one can be followed by two bad ones. I'm talking here of the "caravan" part of the thing because now you'd be very unlucky to get a duff base vehicle.

 

As far as dealers are concerned you can quickly work out the good from the bad and it would appear that your chap is doing a "reasonable" job. If you're "young" enough to be contemplating further purchases down the line it would be my advice to develop the relationship with these people. If you have that time it just might be possible to get them to understand what your definition of a "good job" looks like and there's no doubt they have more inside information about "lemons" than we'll ever know and may therefore steer you in the right direction when the time comes to trade in.

 

Vernon

[KD]

caraprof - 2007-08-10 7:43 PM

K&D - 2007-08-10 7:28 PM caraprof what your firm called do you have a website

I have strong views about not using a forum to promote my business but if you are interested anyway I've sent you a PM with my website's address, but as I said, I won't do business with you myself.

thanks frank you look like you have built up a good business, as i am not quite a millionaire yet i promote my business in any way possible and take no shame in doing so

[Brian Kirby]

Makes and dealers?  Well, certain makes seem to have better reputations for quality and reliability than others.  Vans from the Hymer group seem generally OK (but with a question mark over Liaka), and from Kanus-Tabbert.  So, generally, German made seems fairly reliable.  This, I think, is because the Germans have systemised production and the workforce is generally well trained, disciplined, and fairly well educated.  Not quite how we see ourselves, is it?  The famously "bolshy" Brits, all doing their own thing, unfortunately, do not seem to achieve consistent quality.  (Thus it was with cars and motorbikes, until the Germans, the French and the Japanese came in and showed us how to do it.  Funny that, seems it must have been the management after all!)  Rapido and Pilote also seem to be able to produce a good product at their price level, but French vans generally do not seem to achieve the consistent quality of the German ones.  Unfortunately for us, it seems we are  more inconsistent than the French, quite a bit more so than the Germans, and probably quite a bit better than the Italians.  Therefore, if you want to minimise the risk of a duff van, I suppose the safest maxim is buy German, Rapido or Pilote. 

Having said that, one has to recognise that although the base vehicle is made on a production line by numerically controlled robots in a sophisticated factory, what happens next is pretty much at the other end of the mass production spectrum.  Motorhome and caravan builders are really assemblers.  They make virtually nothing themselves, buying everything in from elsewhere.  Hence the Thetford toilet, Dometic fridge, Truma heater, Smev hob, Polyplastic windows, and Seitz blinds etc etc.  The sheet aluminium for the side walls comes pre finished, the furtniture is almost invariably bought in (mainly from Italy), wall linings, rooflights, cupboard catches etc all add to the pile of bits to be screwed on.  Even the ABS and GRP mouldings for rear walls, and luton or low profile overcab mouldings, all come from specialists elsewhere.  The manufacturer hacks up the base chassis as necessary, plants the floor panel on, installs the furniture, pipes and wiring onto the floor, adding fridge, heater, sink, battery, water tank, light, cooker, toilet, wash basin, taps, wastes and waste tank as he goes, and then puts the walls, roof and front and rear mouldings on last.  All that work is carried out by hand, by people often working in relatively uncomfortable spaces.  So, the components and reasonably consistent, but their assembly frequently is not.

If you look at what goes wrong, it is most often an assembly fault and not a component fault.  However, when it is a component fault it is almost invariably difficult to repair, because of the way the van is assembled in the first place.  It would generally be easier to get to many components (Truma heaters!) by first removing the roof and walls, than by using whatever access has been left internally.  This is sad, but merely reflects a slightly sad commercial reality.  If the components are seldon faulty why, in a competetive market, make construction more complex and so more costly by designing in ways to easily access them?

This is where the dealer comes in.  If he specialises in one of the more reliable makes, he probably has less to do to get vans right on delivery, fewer warranty issues to fix, more satisfied customers, fewer headaches generally, and smiles more as a consequence.  On the other hand, his counterpart selling less reliable brands will have to do more work to vans on delivery, have more warranty work, fewer satisfied customers, more headaches, and will be less smiling.  He'll also be less profitable, so less inclined to make large gestures when things go wrong.  Finally, he'll not generally realise that life could be pleasanter if he dealt in more reliable vans. 

Of course, if he is a very large dealer handling a wide mix of makes he'll know which are the lemons but, if people demand them (the manufacturers do all the promotions, remember) he'll sell them.  However, if he's selling the reliable against the less reliable, why the hell should he cross-subsidise the unreliable from the better profits on the reliable ones.  He'll just make the customer take responsibility for his poor initial choice and if the van is generally reliable probably accept he has to deal with the odd fault, whereas, if the vans is generally problemmatic he'll simply allow events to take their course.  If the manufacturer is awkward and generally unresponsive, why should he spend excessive time chasing lethargic responses?  If the customer becomes aggreived he'll probably gripe at the manufacturer and then, one day, maybe that manufacturer's little light will come on and he'll say "we need to do better on the quality front"!  From what I hear, if the dealers for some makes all did all that is expected of them, they'd soon be bankrupt.

Final conclusion?  Go first for the acknowledged makes, select the van that suits you, then find the nearest dealer of good repute for that make, buy from him, and tell him why you're doing so.  Only that way will the poor dealers begin losing trade and either go out of business or get the hint and up their games, and only that way will the poorer manufacturers find their order books falling and start asking why. 

It is a hard lesson to get across, and there is no place for sentiment or jingoism.  It is your money, so spent it wisely and ignore the siren voices who tell you, against all the odds, that their bloggmobile, although generally acknowledged to be unreliable, has been faultless and even when it wasn't the dealer did eventually manage to fix all the faults.  The person who tells you that will probably buy something else next time, or is a fool!  You have to be realistic, you can't guarantee perfection: the manufacturing process is inherently faulty because it is carried out by people.  Any van can be faulty. 

The best general strategy is to buy the product of the most disciplined, best educated, and best trained, workforce.  Heil Hitler!  Ahem!  Did I really say that?  :-)

[BGD]

Brian - spot on.

[Vernon B]

BGD - 2007-08-11 7:45 PM

 

Brian - spot on.

 

I also think it's a good critique Brian, but it also makes my point (earlier in the thread) about the problems of people giving you recommendations for specific manufacturers. I purchased one of your suggested marks and I'm afraid to say it had a lot quality problems.

 

Vernon

[StAubyns]

I bought new 13 months ago From Lowdham's at Gunthorpe, A dealer special. Its a Dethleffs Eurostyle A54 .

 

My experience would seem to be out of the ordinary, because I have no issues with either the dealer or the motorhome, and its been like that since day 1.

 

regards

 

Geoff

[Mick H.]

Well said Brian with reference to your heil Hitler statement could not agree more Polly H, Micks a other half

[tonyishuk]

I purchased a second hand (pre loved) Rapido now 4 years old and have had no problems.

 

Brownhills supplied the original vehicle, but the nearest Brownhills dealer is good many miles away from us.

 

I have sought advice from a Rapido agent (not Brownhills) in southeast London area, who gave it freely and as a result has fitted a reversing camera, alarm, and awning. With the proviso, that if anything should go wrong, bring it back and the problem will be rectified.

 

You can guess where I am going to get my next vehicle.

 

Rgds

 

 

[KD]

StAubyns - 2007-08-13 9:32 AM

 

I bought new 13 months ago From Lowdham's at Gunthorpe, A dealer special. Its a Dethleffs Eurostyle A54 .

 

My experience would seem to be out of the ordinary, because I have no issues with either the dealer or the motorhome, and its been like that since day 1.

 

regards

 

Geoff

 

we bought from just up the road at david fullers gunthorpe, after at first nicknaming them fuller sh1t we are actually very satisfied though we havnt had anything go wrong so cant comment on aftersales

[johnsandywhite]

K&D - 2007-08-13 6:35 PMwe bought from just up the road at david fullers gunthorpe, after at first nicknaming them fuller sh1t we are actually very satisfied though we havnt had anything go wrong so cant comment on aftersales

 

:-D That's ironic. We bought our very first Camper a 1988 Autohomes Frontier based on a Ford Transit from them back in 1996. I hadn't a clue about prices. I just wanted one because we had sold our Transit Van and needed transport to get back to Spain and perhaps tour with. Didn't bother with any after service. Would I buy from them again? Doubt it. I am (I hope) much wiser now. (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

Vernon B - 2007-08-12 5:07 PM I also think it's a good critique Brian, but it also makes my point (earlier in the thread) about the problems of people giving you recommendations for specific manufacturers. I purchased one of your suggested marks and I'm afraid to say it had a lot quality problems. Vernon

But Vernon, what I was talking about was no more than a strategy to reduce the risk of buying a dud.  If you look back, I ended by saying any van may prove faulty.

I think your point is just too bleak.  (From what I hear about the early production examples of the new Sevel vans, I also think your claim that you'd be unlikely to get a duff base vehicle these days may turn out a bit over optimistic!)

With respect to the value of your own experience, the fact that you ended up with a bad example, in reality, no more proves that they are all liable to be bad, than the fact we got a good example proves they'll all be good. 

All one can honestly say is that, on balance, the chances of a dud are somewhat reduced by selecting in favour of the makes with the best reputation for their reliability, durability, and quality.  However, since they are all made by people, and since there are still Fridays in the week, you can still get a "Friday van" from any maker.  The production process is just too prone to failure for there to be any certainties.

[tonyishuk]

PLease see next posting

 

Rgds