Buying abroad.

[Brian Kirby]

This post may be of interest to anyone who is considering buying abroad, but has been put off by concerns over saleability of the van once imported, or the general hassle of treating with foreign dealers, or insurance or currency complications.  It is a personal account of two quite different purchase routes, and one sale.  It is not intended as a route map, but it has worked for us, so may give a bit of heart to anyone who is still hesitating.

Late last year we decided to change our imported, left hand drive, April 2005 Bürstner T585, for a left hand drive 2007 Hobby Van.  Why change so soon?  Because we found the Bürstner, at 2.3 metres wide, a bit too “fat” for comfort in many situations.  It was a personal import, bought in France (at Calais Caravanes), and had in all other respects been exactly what we had wanted.  It had been fault free from new, apart from a failed water pump.  We had toured Spain, Portugal, France and Italy, additionally passing through parts of Germany and Austria.  We had spent over 200 nights in the van, and covered around 12,000 continental miles so, although it may seem we had owned it for only a relatively short time, the decision to change was not exactly taken on a whim.

How did we get on selling our left hand drive, two berth, Bürstner in UK?  In short, slowly!  The longer answer is that we reached an agreement with Cranham, who are Bürstner agents, to put the van on their Upminster forecourt on a sale or return basis.  They offered us a guaranteed return on eventual sale, and the vehicle would be cleaned and insured by them, and sold by them as theirs, with their own guarantee, serviced and inspected as necessary to maintain all extant warranties in force.  We took the van to Cranham just before Christmas 2006, and it eventually sold in early June 2007, following slow spring sales, one false dawn, and an agreed £2,000 drop in price.  In retrospect, Cranham conceded that they may have been a bit over optimistic in their estimate of the price they could get.  However, they remained true to their word in all respects, their cheque arriving by post as soon as the new owner stumped up the sale balance.  Actual cost to us of just over two years ownership?  £7,000 and a missed spring season!  However, we’d bought the van for £5,000 less than the UK list price for a rhd T585, so we can’t really complain too much!  After all, it had been our decision, and we knew the change would cost us, so all losses were entirely self-inflicted.

How did we buy the Hobby?  We would gladly have gone back to Calais Caravanes, except they don’t sell Hobby vans.  We would happily have bought elsewhere in France, except that there are no French Hobby dealers near the channel ports.  Belgium, not bad.  Germany, plentiful, but relatively distant.  The complication was insuring the van for the journey home.  This did not arise with the Bürstner in 2005, because Calais Caravanes drove us, and it, to the Tunnel terminal on their insurance, all of 10 minutes down the road!  However, the present situation is that it is not possible to get any UK insurance cover on an unregistered vehicle until it actually enters the UK.  It appears impossible to get any short term insurance in France on a vehicle that is not registered in France, and all that can be obtained from Germany is a temporary third party only cover coupled with the temporary export numberplates.  After a lot of pondering and searching, we came across Bundesvan ( www.bundesvan.co.uk ).  This Torquay based company will source your desired van, usually in Germany, import it, register it in your name, tax it, and deliver it right to your door.  What’s more, you actually pay in Sterling, and what you pay is little, if any, more than the German list price converted to Sterling.  You even get to choose whether to accept a fixed exchange rate as on the day you pay your deposit, or whether to pay at the rate on settlement day. 

Having obtained a reference from a very satisfied customer, we approached Bundesvan, were satisfied with the answers to our queries and so, as soon as the Bürstner was sold, we fired the starting gun!  Despite high demand for the model, we found we had a choice of two.  We chose, and then the fun started!  The German dealers were playing hooky, all stock had in reality sold, and there were actually none left.  However, Bundesvan clearly have good contacts and a week or so later they were back in contact to say there was to be a late production run on a few more Vans just before the factory shut for the summer holidays.  All were to the same spec, no options possible, and the Van would have to be collected direct from the factory near Kiel.  We immediately said yes please!  In fact, the factory subsequently agreed to fit a roll out awning, and add an automatic gas changeover valve to the standard regulator. 

The van eventually arrived 10 minutes early, at 8:20am on Saturday 4 August, direct from Dover, having been collected from the Hobby factory only on Thursday 2 August.  How’s that for new!  As with the Bürstner, it was fault free on delivery, despite not having passed through a dealer’s PDI at all.  What we actually paid was about £5,000 less than the UK list price: approximately the German list price converted to Sterling at 1.47€ to the £.

So, if you’re considering a personal import, but worried it may not sell in UK, it seems it will, albeit more slowly than a rhd vehicle.  If insurance, language, and/or the complications of travelling to and fro and organising currency, have all conspired to put you off making a personal import, a company such as Bundesvan may well offer a route that will appeal.  Your first drive in your unfamiliar new vehicle will be on familiar roads as well.  If you’re thinking of used rather than new, they’ll do that as well.  They’ll source a selection and escort you to see them, acting as interpreter and chaperone for the trip.  You just pay your costs and they pay theirs.  However, the best part of the deal is that you retain the greater part of the cost saving between the UK, and the European, prices.  The 2007 Hobby Van sells at around £35,000 in UK, so it is hardly top of the range, and we saved just over 14%.  Applied to a more expensive model, the saving would presumably be even greater.  Oh yes, and there are the full warranties from Ford and Hobby, albeit the Ford one is the standard European 2 years, and not the UK three years.

Courage, mes enfants, courage!

[Guest caraprof]

My only comment Brian, would be that you keep basing your saving on the U.K. list price but you don't seem to me to be the sort of man who'd buy at list price.

I negotiated a 10% discount on a new 'van costing a little bit more than yours but eventually ending up getting a £39K 'van for £30K from another dealer because the maker had done an 'end of season, let's get some cashflow' deal with one or two retailers.

Assuming that you may have been able to negotiate 10% for a cash, no part-exchange deal, your saving comes down to not a great deal and you've only a two-year warranty on the base vehicle and you've another LHD vehicle that you've already proven is difficult to sell.

Not really such a big saving to warrant all the hassle, or am I missing something? I do realise of course that my reasoning all hinges on how much you could have got from a U.K. dealer but I would suggest that, if you went to one, told him that you were going to do a personal import and asked if he could get anywhere near the import price, he may have managed a decent discount.

[crinklystarfish]

Frank,

I've also been a horrible customer and managed to negotiate good savings, but, and I think it's a fundamental but, with something like the new Hobby Van I think we'd be laughed out of the door. UK/>/> retailers can't get enough of them to sell to people who want to unquestioningly throw their entire life savings at them.

Brian,

Thanks for the information.

I’ve contemplated the Bundesvan route, but how particular can one be regarding the spec. I know what I want, and don’t want any more; or less. Do you think they’d do business with a customer who had particularly exacting requirements?

[BGD]

Brian - an absolutely excellent post; great food for thought for others who might be contemplating going the "buy abroad" roaute - or even for those who'd never contemplated it until reading your experiences.

 

As it happens we live in Spain, and we bought LHD via a different route: we bought our 1992 4-berth over-cab LHD ex-German Eura Mobil "old dog-van" privately from a UK chap here. He'd himself bought it in the UK a year or so previously and had then used it to ferry a lot of his stuff over to Spain (he has emigrated to here).

At just 6,000 euros, even though it's 15 years old, it was a really cheap way to dip our toes into the Motorhoming world - and (surprisingly) absolutely everything works on/in it. No rust whatsoever; the only work needed has been some spring assisters to cure it's "saggy bottom".

It ain't gonna win any beauty contests, but we're loving it. (And depreciation really ain't gonna be a worry!!!)

 

Certainly though, judging from the (bloody high) prices of new and 2nd hand vans at dealers in the Costa Blanca region of Spain, and the much cheaper prices on German 2nd hand vehicle websites such as www.autoscout.de, we would certainly consider either buying ourselves privately in Germany in future, or in using a German liaison/agent agent such as the one you've mentioned, when the "dog-van" eventually dies/falls apart.

 

Bruce.

[johnsandywhite]

8-) You can save money buying from just about anywhere apart from a UK dealer. We bought from a UK dealer. Won't tell you the LONG story. Lost £9000 in 5 years on it (not new, an old older one). Went to the USA., bought, toured, had a great holiday, shipped it back and saved around £15,000. I know what I will try to do in the future. ;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Brians import story is one way of doing it, and possibly a painless introduction to importing for the nervous. But bigger savings are available, and it’s not any more difficulty to do the whole thing yourself. Like Frank said there are good discounts to be negotiated for the mean and crafty.....*-)

 

The Belgian dealer I bought from was prepared to drive van to Ostend but in fact he put his trade plates on and I posted them straight back on my return. Failing this I would have driven back on Third party.

 

I would not buy from a show as I believe you can squeeze the dealers more when they are back home. In Düsseldorf last year hardly any discount from EuraMobil dealers (although healthy ones from Challanger & Adria which I also liked) after show I contacted 5 dealers. 2 offered 18%, so I went for nearest one in Belgium and I saved well over £10.000

 

My model van has been out 2 years, so possibly easier to get a decent discount. These new “van” models are Big news this and next year with more models coming out all the time – 5 in this months German Promobil magazine alone. The best looking IMO being the Burstner Aero van, which is a lightweight construction like EuraMobil and a real sexy beast....

 

And on a Merc chassis which will keep Clive happy (mind you, not an invitation to start rambling on about all fings MB!) :-D

 

Oops! sorry about that, piccy a bit big....

[crinklystarfish]

Good info Judge, not sure about the 'van though. It looks like someone reversed a low pro into a caravan at speed.

[Guest JudgeMental]

crinklystarfish - 2007-09-02 1:56 PM

 

Good info Judge, not sure about the 'van though. It looks like someone reversed a low pro into a caravan at speed.

 

Beauty in the eye and all that.... :-D

 

look at it again and look at other "Van" models - they look very plain and ordinary in comparison

 

Sorry Brian! should have started another thread.... *-)

[davenewellhome]

Congratulations on your new 'van Brian, I was only recently wondering how you were getting on.

 

D.

[Guest JudgeMental]

davenewell@home - 2007-09-02 3:28 PM

Congratulations on your new 'van Brian, I was only recently wondering how you were getting on.

D.

 

Making me feel guilty now :$

 

my intention was not to rain on Brian's parade...... *-)

[davenewellhome]

And my intention was not to make anyone feel guilty Eddie. ;-)

 

D.

[Brian Kirby]

caraprof - 2007-09-01 11:19 PM

My only comment Brian, would be that you keep basing your saving on the U.K. list price but you don't seem to me to be the sort of man who'd buy at list price.

I negotiated a 10% discount on a new 'van costing a little bit more than yours but eventually ending up getting a £39K 'van for £30K from another dealer because the maker had done an 'end of season, let's get some cashflow' deal with one or two retailers.

Assuming that you may have been able to negotiate 10% for a cash, no part-exchange deal, your saving comes down to not a great deal and you've only a two-year warranty on the base vehicle and you've another LHD vehicle that you've already proven is difficult to sell.

Not really such a big saving to warrant all the hassle, or am I missing something? I do realise of course that my reasoning all hinges on how much you could have got from a U.K. dealer but I would suggest that, if you went to one, told him that you were going to do a personal import and asked if he could get anywhere near the import price, he may have managed a decent discount.

Sorry to include your full post, Frank, I know it annoys some.  However, to give the context to my reply...... 

What I was attempting to show, for those who want a left hand drive van, but have hitherto been put off by various perceived difficulties, was that a) they can be sold in UK (and, if you want something a UK dealer already has in stock, readily traded) and b) you can make a substantial saving in getting more or less exactly what you want, new, left hand drive, pay for it in sterling, and avoid all the running backwards and forwards to France/Germany or wherever, and paperwork.

Re discounts: these are not the unique province of UK dealers whatever they may say!  When we bought in France we were offered a discount from the French list price.  Even German dealers discount, in German!  I didn't try to negotiate one, and suspect it would have been little more than a token on the Hobby Van due to high demand and low supply.  That is why I limited myself to comparing the price I actually paid, with the actual list prices in the two countries, rather than speculating.

We've got what we wanted, not what was available, no one else in UK could get one, and there were just 10 left for the whole of Europe after mine went from the factory car park!  I tried talking to Brownhills in July about getting a lhd one from them.  To their credit they did ask.  They said if ordered July 2007, delivery would be Easter 2008, but they were still awaiting delivery of the first batch of rhd vans ordered last November for delivery Easter 2007, and the whole allocation of rhd Vans had been sold.

So, we got what we wanted when all around couldn't supply, arranged from the comfort of our own living room, and delivered to our door.  No chasing around Europe, and no running from dealer to dealer chasing prices.  Seemed pretty hassle free to me!

[Brian Kirby]

crinklystarfish - 2007-09-02 10:12 AM

Brian,

Thanks for the information.

I’ve contemplated the Bundesvan route, but how particular can one be regarding the spec. I know what I want, and don’t want any more; or less. Do you think they’d do business with a customer who had particularly exacting requirements?

I believe they are quite flexible, but it depends how "bespoke" you want.  As ever, the best deals are on whet is in stock, rather than what you specify from the options list.  I can only suggest you contact Bundesvan, spell out what you're after, and see what they say.  The worst answer can only be no, after all.

To everyone else, thank you for your kind words.  Got the tickets today, off Wednesday.  Peace for you all for a while!  T'ra!

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

Where you heading for Brian on your inaugural journey? :-D