Andy Frazier Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 Hi, we have a 2000 LMC motorhome, trying to get onto French plates, with no CoC. We are nearly there but the issue of long and short mirror arms has been raised. How do I tell if we have long or short? Are there measurements anywhere. These are 33cm to the outside. Pictures below. Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 looks like long to me. Check the link. A short arm and long arm are third and forth items down. https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/wing-mirror-10666/fiat/ducato/ducato-platform-chassis-230/58733-2-8-jtd-4x4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Frazier Posted August 7 Author Share Posted August 7 Thanks so much, that's really helpful. It certainly looks like the long one. . I am going to run it into a FIAT dealership and see if they can confirm, as I need it certified before it goes in for a test. I just wish someone had a chart of the length of the arms. Maybe they will have... cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 The length of the arm is stated here https://www.wingmirrorman.co.uk/wing-mirrors/fiat-wing-mirror-units/fiat-ducato-wing-mirror-units/fiat-ducato-1994-2002-wing-mirror-units/fiat-ducato-cab-1998-2002-wing-mirror-units 'Coachbuilt' motorhomes on a Ducato base will almost always have long arm (130mm length) mirrors. The length of the arm of short-arm mirrors is said to be 80mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Frazier Posted August 7 Author Share Posted August 7 As suspected, local Fiat dealer was extremely unhelpful. The mechanic admitted that they I had long arms fitted, but was not prepared to certify that. And despite me sending in measurements for the long arm, DREAL (being a French government organisation) need a piece of paper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 @Andy Frazier Do you have a Data Card or Build Sheet for your chassis? If not try running your VIN through one of the FREE (do not pay) websites that give the exact spec of your chassis/van as it was built. I have links for MB but not Fiat/Peugeot, etc. and my Data Card clearly states my Sprinter chassis was built with Extended mirror arms. Keith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 Hi If you contact Fiat Group Automobiles UK Ltd Fiat House 240 Bath Road Slough SL1 4DX They should be able to help you with your COC ,If I remember for free Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 I'm pretty sure that an LMC motorhome built in 2000 will have had a Certificate of Conformity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 12 hours ago, Andy Frazier said: Hi, we have a 2000 LMC motorhome, trying to get onto French plates, with no CoC. We are nearly there but the issue of long and short mirror arms has been raised. How do I tell if we have long or short? Are there measurements anywhere. These are 33cm to the outside. Pictures below. Thanks for your help. Hi As Andy has outlined it looks like he has not Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 I meant to write "I'm pretty sure that an LMC motorhome built in 2000 will NOT have had a Certificate of Conformity." I'm well aware that Andy does not have a CoC for his motorhome. Given that the motorhome is 24 years old, I wondered if LMC or Fiat would now be able to provide him with documentation that would confirm the 'arm length' of the mirrors fitted originally. Having said that, this 2011 MHFacts forum thread, that highlighted the difficulties involved in French-registering a Year-2000 Hobby 750 imported into France from the UK, did say that a CoC had been obtained from Hobby France for €230 https://www.motorhomefacts.com/threads/certificate-of-conformity-advice-needed.82929/ While I can appreciate meeting French bureaucratic requirements being challenging when an imported motorhome has no CoC, it seems odd that the arm-length of Andy's LMC's exterior mirrors should be a stumbling block. It's plain from Andy's photos and his measurements that his LMC has the Fiat 130mm-arm 'long arm' mirrors that were generally fitted to Ducato X230/X244 chassis that were to be converted into coachbuilt motorhomes, so why does the DREAL now want that to be 'officially' confirmed? I could understand that the DREAL would want to be sure that the motorhome had mirrors that matched the vehicle's steering-wheel position. (ie. the correct mirrors for a RHD or LHD vehicle) but not why it is (seemingly) vital to know that mirrors with the 130mm arm-length would have been fitted in 2000. As you've advised, perhaps Fiat at Slough can help, despite Andy's motorhome having been built in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 I have checked both the Fiat and Pilote CoC for my 2017 motorhome and neither mentions the mirrors at all let alone the length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 This link https://www.eurococ.eu/en/coc-pedia/export-import-of-vehicles/ includes the following I have got a British car with a steering wheel on the right. Can it be registered in a country using right-hand traffic? When COC states the vehicle can be registered without any further modifications in countries using right-hand traffic (most of EU countries), the COC should be sufficient. However, once the COC states the vehicle can be registered only in countries using left-hand traffic (UK, Japan), it is possible the single vehicle approval will be needed. In case no major deficiencies of the vehicle are proven after a technical inspection of the vehicle, the single vehicle approval is not necessary. The most important elements that need to conform to standards of the country of next registration are front and rear lights, speedometer and rear-view mirrors. I don't think CoCs carry (or have ever carried) information about mirrors (Why should they?) but - when I owned a 2015 Ducato-based coachbuilt Rapido motorhome - a friendly service manager at a Fiat Professional agency printed out for the vehicle what I think Keith refers to as a 'data card' or 'build sheet'. This listed the Ducato options that Rapido would have asked Fiat to provide (eg. a particular paint colour, painted front bumper, Traction Plus, etc.) and the list MIGHT have included the long-arm mirrors that the motorhome had. However, I suspect that no similar listing would be available from Fiat nowadays for a Ducato built 24 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) Hi Andy I too am a little confused as to why the mirrors have become such an issue Is the motorhome registered in your name at present? You could (as you have) take some photos and place a tape on same ( also showing your complete motorhome full frontal and back and also along the sides showing that mirrors clears the build bodywork of your motorhome of course with your current number plate to the testing authorities). That is if they are actually looking only for confirmation of length of the mirrors Produce your photograph evidence to the testing authorities, Maybe if you obtain a COC for your LMC motorhome this may not be needed This may be the best route to go Edited August 8 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 I've quoted below an extract from a 2021 thread headed "Advice on import duty" on the SurviveFrance forum. ...We have friends who imported a Compass motor home (2004) nearly two years ago and they have had horrendous problems with DREAL. To quote the DREAL agent it is too long too wide and too heavy. They finally came up with a list of about ten items to be addressed. Most items were easy enough like changing lights, taking off the tow bar and frame which was fitted in the UK and had no French approval. However three items almost had us stumped. The vehicle is on a Boxer chassis but it had been extended by ALKO and DREAL wanted a document from ALKO to prove the brakes were sufficient for the extended and heavier vehicle. Luckily ALKO Germany provided one in English and German which was accepted. The second item was seatbelts the camper is six berth with lap belts on the rear facing seats and inertia reel full belts on the forward facing seats in the body of the van. The only way these could be accepted was if they were tested by UTAC (French Company) we spoke to them and it is a destructive test!!! So not going to happen, finally DREAL accepted that it could be approved if the rear seat belts were removed and the mounts condemned, not sure what they mean by condemned but hopefully removing the belts will work. It does mean that is only going to be licensed for two people in the cab. The last one has been the most difficult, DREAL questioned the wing mirrors and even suggested that RHD mirrors were not suitable for driving in France. As Compass no longer exist we spoke to Erwin Hymer but they were absolutely useless and as the vehicle was too old could do nothing. I spoke to a really nice guy at Baileys in the UK and he told me there are three sizes of wing mirrors for a Peugeot Boxer cab and the medium size with arms of 15cm are correct for a vehicle of width up to 2.2m (ours is 2.17) We could not convince DREAL they wanted an lettre justificatifs réglementaires for thé wing mirrors. More inquiries and we finally got Peugeot UK to write such a letter, but that was not acceptable to DREAL so finally back to Peugeot France and after a lot of false hope found the right department who provided the lettre and it was accepted.... Obviously, if Andy had a CoC for his LMC motorhome, such issues should not arise, but I read the statement in his original posting "...we have a 2000 LMC motorhome, trying to get onto French plates, with no CoC" as indicating that he had tried to obtain a CoC and found it impossible to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 (edited) Hi Again I find this a little strange as to why the authorities are making it so difficult Some motorhome vehicles have two CoC and i know many who have imported into France within the EU having very little issues with right/hand drive or left/hand drive motorhomes Could this be the real issue why they are putting every obstacle in his way? I have no idea Get a CoC for the vehicle (if it is not available for his motorhome of 2000, get that in writing from them ) Produce the letter to the relevant authorities and see how it goes from there Lets hope Andy gets back to us Regards Edited August 8 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 The UK withdrew from the EU in January 2020, so the DREAL-related difficulties with the Compass motorhome mentioned in my last posting would have begun before that. Off-hand I can recall only two Out&AboutLive forum discussions about French-registering a motorhome imported from the UK. This 2016 (well before Brexit) entry was the final thread about French-registering a UK-specification 1990s Pilote motorhome. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/37785-i-give-up/ The other instance related to forum-member Tony Jones who was relocating to France and, because he realised that importing his much-loved Ford Transit-based panel-van conversion to France was likely to be problematical, sold the vehicle in the UK and bought a secondhand French-registered motorhome after the move abroad had been made. The procedure for importing a motorhome to the UK has changed over time and is now stricter (and more expensive) than when I first did it in 2005. But the UK has always been much easier-going about vehicle importation than France. There is a DREAL authority in most French Regions and this link carries vehicle importation guidance from the Auvergne-Rhone-Alpes DREAL. https://www.auvergne-rhone-alpes.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/importation-ou-transformation-d-un-vehicule-a20726.html?lang=fr It's evident from the case studies on the link that having a CoC (or an equivalent 'France highway code compliancy' document) from the vehicle manufacturer is pivotal for the importation procedure to be straightforward, and an inability to provide that documentation moves the vehicle into an inspection process that's a whole nest of worms, with one of the checks being champs de rétrovision (rear vision fields). On-line photos make it clear that Year-2000 LMC coachbuilt motorhomes (RHD or LHD) all have the same 'long-arm' mirrors as Andy's (example of 2000 LHD LMC below) but that 'logic' is unlikely to sway the DREAL Andy is at loggerheads with. Presumably, if the DREAL insists on having a 'piece of paper' about the mirrors, it will have to come from Fiat, but will that be from Fiat(Germany) where the LMC factory is, and what will the piece of paper need to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Hi Derek Again who knows ? It isn't a major problem within the EU, once the CoC or (K) Type approval number is available Again I would advise Andy to obtain same Let's hope Andy gets back to us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 It's occasionally advised online that, if a UK V5C registration document has a Type Approval number in data-field K in the Vehicle Details section, quoting that number removes the need to provide an actual CoC when importing a vehicle from the UK to France. I notice that, on the copy of the application form I completed when I was UK-registering my Ford-based Hobby motorhome (purchased new in Germany in 2005), I had provided a Type Approval number and I assume that number was subsequently transferred to the Hobby's V5C. To allow me to put that number on the application form I must have got it from somewhere and, logically, it would have been either from a Ford or Hobby CoC that the German Hobby dealership would have given me. So, if the V5C of Andy's Fiat-based LMC motorhome has a Type Approval number in its K data-field, by quoting that number to Fiat or LMC it ought to be practicable to obtain the related CoC. But nothing in field K means either that the DVLA office that first UK-registered the motorhome failed to record the Type Approval number, or the number was never put on the application form, or the motorhome was not Type Approved and had no CoC(s). Regarding the mirrors, for Fiat Ducato X230/X244 models there are three types - short, long and extra-long. All Year-2000 LMC coachbuilt motorhomes appear to have the 'long' mirrors, but online photos of later LMC models (say around Year-2005) have the extra-long mirrors, perhaps because they had wider bodywork. As it will be obvious from the driving-position of Andy's motorhome (and from looking forwards from the rear of the motorhome along its sides) whether the vehicle's mirrors will provide a driver with adequate vision, one might think this 'arm-length' demand by the DREAL is just bloody-mindedness - but then the DREAL has gained a notorious reputation for that where imported vehicles with no CoC are concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 I think those applying were actually advised in the past for photographic evidence also . Again we have a few in our Club that have moved to France permanently and had very little issue with the authorities in re registering their motorhomes, One imported his motorhome into France in 2019 (k) on his Registration Certificate (V5C) and CoC available without any issue. Just the usual form filling, waiting , testing,cost etc' Again all I can do is advise Andy is to get a CoC , or if he wishes totry the photographic evidence and see where it may take him. Maybe not fully acceptable any more. I would advise if the Motorhome is in his name to obtain a CoC Again let's hope Andy gets back to us on his outcome Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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