Mel E Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 A-FRAME TOWING - A FEW OBSERVATIONS So we have yet another really long thread (elsewhere) on the subject covering the same old territory. There seem to be 5 different types of contributor to these A-Frame discussions: - those who (tiredly by now!) repeat what the various regulations say about trailers to highlight the problems with A-Frame towing (there is actually nothing in law specifically about A-Frames except for recovery. - those who question and/or dismiss what is said about the law without having any better chapter and verse to quote. Many are naive enough to say 'they wouldn't sell it if it was illegal'. IN UK Law, YOU make the offer to buy (hence 'Buyer Beware') and the seller seals the contract by agreeing to sell. Markets and even shops are full of illegal items (counterfeit products, etc) - so the argument doesn't wash. - those who blythely say 'I'm ignoring the law because it is an ass / hasn't been tested / etc'. Go ahead, but, as this thread shows, it HAS been tested successfully, though mostly against motor dealer towing unbraked. - a large swathe of A-Frame towers (of whom I used to be one) who say "it's safe, so it must be OK, regardless of the law". So is climbing Canary Wharf Tower with the right skills and equipment but it doesn't make it legal! As for safety, I for one have had a different experience! - and finally there are those who say "I've never met anyone who has been stopped by Continental Police!" Well, I have - twice in Spain - and it cost them heavily. But, then again, maybe I just meet the wrong sort of people . . . Please, if these discussions are to serve any useful purpose, can we try and minimise the amount of pure speculation? Or move it to the Chatterbox Forum where you can speculate your brain away? Not trying to upset anyone but probably upsetting everone! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Mel E Please don't take offence at this but if you don't want to participate in these discussions which are motorhome related then why do you ? that's not trying to be funny its asking the question as if they irritate you then why subject your self to it As for your previous investigations please while they are helpful, please don't expect people to just take your or anyone else's word for it. I have been involved in the various complexes of the Building Regulations and their amendments for most of my working life and interpretation is always complex and i would certainly never suggest that people should not ask questions regarding my interpretations or where the regulation/paragraph is that i am quoting from and i will always listen with an open mind to their interpretations. As on a number of occasions i have found myself having to rethink situations, now that's not saying you have it wrong or attacking your or anyone else's interpretation but please don't try to stifle debate as that is what make changes and helps to develop If you can find the information that you suggested you would look for I would really appreciate it and thank you for the PM re insurance Thanks Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzled Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Has anyone considred the fact that it is only the people who sell the A frames say they are legal and can never provide evidence of this fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Puzzled - 2007-09-27 12:08 PM Has anyone considred the fact that it is only the people who sell the A frames say they are legal and can never provide evidence of this fact Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 hi i have read and reread all the postings on this subject and can only assume that until someone is prosecuted for using an a frame we will never know if they are or are not legal. im sure that within the construction and use regs a suitably versed transport solicitor could argue either way but until there is a prosecution we will never know, but is driving about with 2 eye bolts poking out the front of your car legal, thats another thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Pagey, You only have to read what the Police traffic Officer states *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 i did michele but as of yet he has only reported motor traders for using a frame designed for the purpose of recovery that piece of equipment does not have any brakes so the a frame used by motorhomes is a little different , only a judge can sort this out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A W Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Has anyone else seen "Groundhog day"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Yep :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 police officers are employed to uphold the law michelle, not make it. its down to the judge at court, and if a officer wastes a judges time and expense he/she/it will here about it. fred of the force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Quite right Fred my dear trouble is CPS will get the crap for taking it to court in the first place not the officer. If the officer presents it CPS decide if there is a case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 my god michelle, yoov shrunk! f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted September 27, 2007 Author Share Posted September 27, 2007 Brian, No offence taken. When I get out of hospital again next week, I'll try and find time to look through my archives because I clearly will not convince you until I quote clause and subsection to perfection. Ah well! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Thinking of you Mel take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hey Mel ... I know you have a soft spot for the nurses but really, using the hospital like a hotel just so you can keep oggling them in their uniforms (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) Hope everything is going okay, thinking of you. Mel B XX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Thanks Mel E I really do appreciate it and more importantly I really hope everything goes well with the hospital visit, we will all be thinking of you look after yourself Brian Mel E - 2007-09-27 8:48 PM Brian, No offence taken. When I get out of hospital again next week, I'll try and find time to look through my archives because I clearly will not convince you until I quote clause and subsection to perfection. Ah well! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 I have to agree with enodreven on this one Mel E, there are people out there that need clarification on all subjects and A Frames and I just happen to be one of them, and if it's not to your liking then keep out of the discussion. . It's not compulsory It may also comes as some surprise to you but there are some of us, me especially, that knows next to nothing about A frames so these threads are invaluable, and finally why is it that in most threads I read there seems to be the same idiots that just have to put their tags on these threads with silly childish comments and take it completely off the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Jen's Grumpy Git - 2007-09-27 9:53 PM I have to agree with enodreven on this one Mel E, there are people out there that need clarification on all subjects and A Frames and I just happen to be one of them, and if it's not to your liking then keep out of the discussion. . It's not compulsory It may also comes as some surprise to you but there are some of us, me especially, that knows next to nothing about A frames so these threads are invaluable, and finally why is it that in most threads I read there seems to be the same idiots that just have to put their tags on these threads with silly childish comments and take it completely off the subject. So why did you not take my suggestion on the other thread and use the search facility to read the previous threads on this subject? Its been done to death but those who choose to ignore the legalities also choose to ignore what's already been said! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 The reason I chose not to use the search facility is my choice not your decision, and if eveyone followed your "suggestion" to search for the answer before posting you wouldn,t have a forum, would you ?,apart from the non topical - chit chat - sniping type posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Jen's Grumpy Git - 2007-09-27 10:09 PM The reason I chose not to use the search facility is my choice not your decision, and if eveyone followed your "suggestion" to search for the answer before posting you wouldn,t have a forum, would you ?,apart from the non topical - chit chat - sniping type posts. Well pardon me for being sensible 8-) In edit: and yes we would have a forum but it would be one where we moved forward to discuss new topics instead of going over the same old subjects time and time again ad infinitum because people choose to ignore previous threads on a subject and start a new one in the vain hope that someone will back up their weak arguments for ignoring the law! D. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Mel, your patience and forbearance is something to admire and I wish you well, and hope you recover from your hospital visit soon. One side of this debate has not been covered. I believe these A frame company's remove the bumpers and fit a frame behind it too attach their A frame. Would this not invalidate the crash worthiness of the vehicle? putting its type approval, legality etc into question? (this is a question not a statement) And if one of these vehicles where involved in an accident would this not leave the owner open to prosecution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jen's Grumpy Git Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 "Move forward to discuss new topics"? So what topics haven't already been covered, and stop telling me that I insist on breaking the law! Were does it say that I use an A Frame ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Jen's Grumpy Git - 2007-09-27 10:52 PM "Move forward to discuss new topics"? So what topics haven't already been covered, and stop telling me that I insist on breaking the law! Were does it say that I use an A Frame ? But you have been extolling there use on this thread and ignoring all good advice. quoting chapter and verse from information gathered at York from the A frame company's. But without as Dave rightly suggested bothering to do any homework on the subject whatsoever *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 For god's sake how many times has this subject been aired. It's already been done to death. If anybody has any questions regarding A Frames just do as Dave has already suggested and do a search and you will see it has already been comprehensivly covered. Then make up your mind, use one or not . Your choice. But please don't bore he rest of us with your reasons for doing so. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Where did I say you used an A frame? I pointed out that you started a new thread about A frames suggesting that they are legal because you'd seen the bumf that A frame manufacturers dish out. I suggested, politely, that before you went further you should search the forum for previous threads on this subject simply because its been done to death on here and as yet no new point has been raised worthy of discussion. You chose not to use the search facility, fine, that's your right and your choice but you then went on to argue in favour of A frames until the legalities were pointed out at which point you disappeared from the discussion. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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