eric 83 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 i know a lot of you will be interested in these photos. came upon this frenchman at orador aire, he assured us they are ok. his car is a ligier with discs ar. and weighs 350kg and has a 550cc motor!our fiat is also seen. the other fiat was seen at honfleur and belonged to a belgian who also said ok there,both frames were un braked the one on the ligier was made in the uk!!! the belg one was made by an engineer and was the simplest and easyest to use i have seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 sorry lost photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 is it a secret how to get photos onto this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 when you create the text for you thread/post you then click box at bottom of page "attach file" the trick is to make sure photos are not large files as they will not load. easiest way to reduce them is to email them to yourself first, in the process you will be given a choice of what size - pick smallest. then just add photos one by one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 thanks judgemental(if it works) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 try again please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Keep trying. Really want to see this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 If you resize the photos to less than 100k you'll be able to put them on .... please, we're dying to see them! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 How you diddling Eric obviously no luck yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 June 2007's French magazine "Camping-Car" published a letter inquiring about towing a small car (750kg weight or less) behind a motorhome. The writer suggested French micro-cars, buggies of the type made by Secma, or an Opel Corsa (surely far too heavy!) as possible candidates for the towed vehicle. He had seen 'foreigners' towing cars via A-frames and he thought this method looked very practical. But he'd never seen anyone French doing it, so was it legal in France? The editorial reply was that this type of towing was absolutely forbidden for French-registered vehicles and that was why A-frames were not marketed in that country. If a French motorist wanted to tow a car, the only solution was to employ a conventional trailer suitable for the car's size and weight. I have no reason to doubt the validity of Camping-Car's statement. However, I'm sure I saw in another French motorhome magazine a photo of an ultra-light buggy being towed via a rigid draw-bar attached to the buggy's underside and raising its front wheels completely off the ground. The system was un-braked and matched the picture on Page 196 of MMM August 2007 showing how John Wickersham towed his FunTec micro-car. The implication (as I saw it) was that, although French-registered vehicles were banned from towing cars that had all of their wheels in contact with the road (eg. when towed with an A-frame), different regulations might apply that legally permitted the 'draw-bar/wheels-in-the-air' technique to be used. (That's just guesswork though, and it would be valuable if any forum member conversant with French towing regulations could provide expert advice.) Very simplistically speaking, if you temporarily visit an EU country with a vehicle that is not registered in that country, then, as long as that vehicle is technically legal in the country where it is registered and is used in a manner that is legal in that country, then it is deemed to be legal in the country being temporarily visited even if there is a conflict with the latter country's vehicle-related regulations. This doesn't mean, just because we drive on the left in the UK, that you are legally entitled to do the same in France - that would be daft. This 'harmonisation' principle applies more to fine-detail Vehicle Construction and Use regulations that tend to differ EU country to EU country. If one accepts the "Camping-Car" advice that drivers of French-registered motorhomes are prohibited from towing a car via an A-frame, then, for a driver of a 'foreign-registered' motorhome to legally tow a car with an A-frame in France, A-Frame towing needs to be legally permissible in the 'foreign' country where the driver's motorhome is registered. Personally, I've no idea which EU countries have regulations that specifically allow A-frame towing, or have no regulations prohibiting it, or have regulations that specifically prohibit the practice. I know nothing about Belgian towing regulations, but, if the law in Belgium permits A-frame towing, then the driver of a Belgian-registered motorhome should be legally able to A-frame tow a car while visiting France. Drivers of UK-registered motorhomes visiting France are in a similar position. If A-frame towing is legal in the UK, then it should be legally OK to do it in France. This, of course, is where the endless, fruitless, hair-splitting debate about "legality" and "illegality" begins. No A-frame towing system used by UK motorcaravanners meets this country's technical requirement that the brakes fitted to a braked 'trailer' must automatically deactivate when the trailer is reversed. This isn't an opinion - it's a simple statement of fact. I accept that, if the methodology of towing a car via an A-frame were addressed in a UK court of law, the concept might well be given its own set of regulations that fully legalised it. But that hasn't happened yet and, as A-frames clearly don't comply with the UK auto-release braking regulation, the practice must surely be considered to be more illegal than legal in the UK. And the follow-on from that is, if A-frame towing has even a whiff of regulation-breaking when practised in the UK, then it's illogical to argue that it's going to be legal for a UK-registered motorhome to do it in France. (Incidentally, I've been told in confidence that a revolutionary method of towing a car will be unveiled at the NEC Show. This involves the car being driven on to a lightweight flexible plastic 'plate' attached to the back of the motorhome. Fitted to the plate is a tiny, but immensely powerful, electric pump that forces air into and beneath the plate. The air is trapped by skirts attached to the edge of the plate and the 'hovercraft' principle lifts plate and car well above the road surface. According to photos I've seen the general effect is of a car sitting in a large inflatable children's paddling-pool (but with skirts of course). Claimed advantages of this product (provisionally called the Hover-Trail) are that there's no wear and tear on the car and the flexible plastic plate, when deflated, can be folded up into a compact shape suitable for easy storage within a motorhome. Apparently a little care needs to be taken when cornering due to the pendulum effect inherent in the system, but, otherwise, there seem to be absolutely no drawbacks. Sounds unbelievably good to me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 i think thats called a hovercraft derek, and there are lot of rules and regs for those!! i cannot seem to upload these pics, so if someone who knows how would allow me to email them to themselves i will do so.(if i cant use a spanner or hammer on it i struggle!!) :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Whilst attending a rally in Clermont Ferrand I saw what may be an alternative metod of moving a towed vehicle around. A Dutch member of the rally had arrived in a converted coach (complete with dish washer, washing machine and tumble drier). He was towing a Datsun saloon, I think it was, on the lift & tow systems, used by motoring organisations and so on, where the front wheels of the towed vehicle sit inside rectangular frames. His self-designed lift system was cable operated, whereas recovery organisations have hydraulic systems. It made some French heads turn to see that combination travelling in the midst of three British tag-axle motorhomes. Not many French motorhome drivers have the required licence to drive anything heavier than 3.5 tonnes. However, I believe that system of vehicle towing in the UK is only legally usable for vehicle recovery. Please correct me if I am wrong. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 eric 83 - 2007-10-18 7:57 PM i think thats called a hovercraft derek, and there are lot of rules and regs for those!! i cannot seem to upload these pics, so if someone who knows how would allow me to email them to themselves i will do so.(if i cant use a spanner or hammer on it i struggle!!) :-D send them to me i will have ago I will Pm you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 just back from nec me ansums. not sure weather hover-trail was real or just a stunt (didnot spot paul daniels or blaney)!!! Anyway it looks promising, but could put a lot of trailer people out of business. wot do you think. Will it take on. fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Photo's hopefully hang on coming up sorry guys wont be long a bit premature should of resized them firstly ..Hold your horses be right back ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 MMmm.... those front fixings looks very pedestrian friendly *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 eljay: Some light reading on dollies, A-frames and towing generally... http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18 http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/default.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 JudgeMental - 2007-10-19 2:08 AM MMmm.... those front fixings looks very pedestrian friendly *-) forgot to mention that the towballs were encased in soft rubber!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Derek, A couple of points on your comments above. 1. The law in respect of A-frames, dollies, etc., is identical in France to that in the UK as it is derived from EU Directives. Towing on dollies (e.g., lifting the front wheels of the towed car off the road by means of a dolly or rigid frame) is permitted only for the recovery of broken down vehicles (not 'well' ones) and is subject to very low speed limits. 2. A-Frames are taken to be illegal in France because the law does not permit them. This is a difference in the way that French (Napoleonic) Law works - basically, if something like this is not permitted, then you can't do it. In the UK, English Law requires something to be actively banned to stop you doing it (unless, it's obvious, like murder). 3. The 'temporary importation' rules are, I'm afraid, not quite as you and many others (including myself) have assumed them to be. The fact that a vehicle registered in, say, Spain, is road legal in that country does NOT make it legal to temporarily use it in the UK - or other EU countries. An obvious example is that, when 44 tonne MAM trucks were introduced in Europe, we stuck, for several years to a maximum gross weight of 38 tonnes and foreign vehicles had to comply with this maximum. In the same way, they must comply with our height, width and length limits, regardless of what the limits are in their own countries. The marking requirements for long vehicles still differ between countries and you must comply with the host country here too. There are other examples, but it is by no means clear that: a) A-Frames are legal in the UK b) even if they are, that you can legally drive them elsewhere in Europe. As you can see, it is a veritable minefield! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Just a small point but the first 4 photos relate to a French registered MH -the last two are Belgium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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