Towing with A frame

[Guest DJP]

Mel E - 2007-10-26 11:24 AM

 

Miami,

 

If you search the archives of this forum you will find that people have been taken to court and fined for towing on unbraked A-frames. There is no get-out here: unbraked A-frames are covered by explicit law which states that they may ONLY be used for recovery of broken down vehicles and are subject to speed limits of 40mph on motorways and 20mph elsewhere.

 

I do not know of any cases involving braked A-frames. But why would I? I do not track court cases for a living! Anyone so charged would plead guilty 99 times out of 100 ('cos it's simpler and a lot cheaper!), accept the fine and there would be no publicity - the vast majority (99.99%) of the media reading public are totally uninterested in this debate.

 

Anyway, I'm still puzzled by why people want there to be a court case - and think it's OK as long as there isn't one.

 

Mel E

====

 

 

 

 

Can you post the link for people who have been fined for towing with an unbraked A frame please? I cannot find it.

Thanks

Dennis

[Martyn Ward.]

Instead of towing a car, and thus rendering the concept of a motorhome null and void, why not just buy a caravan?? Then you would only have one vehicle to tax, test and insure and when you went away from the 'van, you'd be a bit more comfortable than you would in of those silly little ironically named "smart" cars.

 

Just my 2/-'s worth, of course.

 

Martyn (one of those odd motorhomers that uses the vehicle how it was intended to be used, doesn't tow a car, doesn't have a silly dish on the roof and uses a map to get about, and doesn't get lost, rather than a ghastly Sat-nav, that seems to get you lost :D )

 

[Basil]

Martyn Ward. - 2007-10-26 6:19 PM

 

Instead of towing a car, and thus rendering the concept of a motorhome null and void, why not just buy a caravan?? Then you would only have one vehicle to tax, test and insure and when you went away from the 'van, you'd be a bit more comfortable than you would in of those silly little ironically named "smart" cars.

 

Just my 2/-'s worth, of course.

 

Martyn (one of those odd motorhomers that uses the vehicle how it was intended to be used, doesn't tow a car, doesn't have a silly dish on the roof and uses a map to get about, and doesn't get lost, rather than a ghastly Sat-nav, that seems to get you lost :D )

 

Oh how much I agree, well except for the SatNav bit, I'm still married because of that! Hmmm hang on a minute though..... :-D :-D :-D

[Guest DJP]

well here's my 2/6p worth

IF I had a caravan it would have to be a big twin axle.

I would have to use a large 4x4 gas guzzzler to tow it.

The 4x4 would be my only car. Using loads of fuel and on every journey either at home or away.

The motorhome would use less fuel than a 4x4 on the way to the holiday site/s. then the silly little Smart woud take over at 60 mpg and would also double up as my daily car when at home at 60mpg £40 road fund, cheap insurance etc. etc.

Would I want to bothered with Aquarolls, waste bottles, only 1 (maybe 2 Leisure batteries, portable sat dish, no solar panel on the roof, calor gas bottles, pushing and shoving it into place. The list is endless. >:-)

having been a "Tugger" once, would I ever go back.

Answers on a used £5 note please, sent to Children in Need.

:D :D :D

Posted in the same nature as Martyns post :D

[Martyn Ward.]

DJP - 2007-10-26 6:34 PM

 

 

Would I want to bothered with Aquarolls, waste bottles, only 1 (maybe 2 Leisure batteries, portable sat dish, no solar panel on the roof, calor gas bottles, pushing and shoving it into place. The list is endless. >:-)

having been a "Tugger" once, would I ever go back.

 

Posted in the same nature as Martyns post :D

 

The ironic thing is, in my position as Senior Warden at the finest camping park in Dorset, I regularly see people using motorhomes as caravans! While I am a great believer in "each to their own", I cannot honestly see the point in having such a fabulously mobile vehicle parked up for a week and then spending days out balancing cups of tea on the dashboard and then looking for public toilets :'( . My Swift is 21" long and quite honestly, height barriers notwithstanding, it will go anywhere that a car will. Then again, one of my bad habits is being able to drive properly

 

Me and beloved have just had a superb holiday up on the west coast of Scotland where the true nature of our motorhome came into its' own. Every day was spent diving in the sea-lochs around Oban. Parked in a quiet lay-by at the water's edge, we have somewhere dry to get changed into our dive kit, our two dogs are in familiar secure surroundings whilst we're underwater and when we surface , we've got everything we need to prepare fresh, hand-picked sea-food for dinner!

If anyone can do this in a smart (or any other kind of car (!) ) I'm all ears :D

 

At the risk of sounding reasonable (lol) , I tugged for years, careful, and wouldn't go back.

 

Martyn.

[enodreven]

Hi, Just found an interesting paragraph within 71/320/EEC which could affect the method of control of an "A" frame, the part that I found interesting was the "drivers mate"

 

Council Directive 71/320/EEC of 26 July 1971 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the braking devices of certain categories of motor vehicles and of their trailers

 

1.4. "Control"

 

"Control" means the part actuated directly by the driver (or, where appropriate, in the case of a trailer, the driver's mate) to supply to the transmission the energy required for braking or controlling it. This energy may be the muscular energy of the driver, or energy from another source controlled by the driver, or in appropriate cases the kinetic energy of a trailer, or a combination of these various kinds of energy.

n

[Guest DJP]

That's sorted then (lol)

I need a drivers mate to carry illegally in the trailer just incase I need his muscles to apply the brake as the servo does not work because the engine is not running. Does my "new" mate need to have a driving licence and insurance to drive my trailer? (lol) (lol) (lol)

[peedee]

Martyn Ward. - 2007-10-26 6:19 PM

 

Instead of towing a car, and thus rendering the concept of a motorhome null and void, why not just buy a caravan?? Then you would only have one vehicle to tax, test and insure

 

Some days I tows a car and becomes a tugger and some days I don't and tours and I 'as the best of both worlds :-D Why becos I can and I can afford it.

 

peedee

[Mel E]

 

Can you post the link for people who have been fined for towing with an unbraked A frame please? I cannot find it.

Thanks

Dennis

 

Dennis,

 

It's in there somewhere and quite recent.

 

Mel E

====

[Guest DJP]

Ah, I think I have found it. Was it you?

Mel E - 2007-09-27 11:22 AM

 

- and finally there are those who say "I've never met anyone who has been stopped by Continental Police!" Well, I have - twice in Spain - and it cost them heavily. But, then again, maybe I just meet the wrong sort of people . . .

 

Mel E

====

Quote edited for to show relevant comments.

I find this quite incredible. I have asked on forums (2) prior to your post if anyone knew anyone who had been prosecuted for towing anywhere with an A frame. Not, I know someone who knows someones uncles mate who was prosecuted. Actually know them.

The response was, well there wasn't any. From that I assume no one actually knows anyone who has been prosecuted.

Then you come along and say you have actually spoken to not 1 but 2 people who have been prosecuted.

Amazing!

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

There was a new member on here recently, a traffic cop probably scared of by the gremlins. who had been involved with prosecuting people. his examples were motor traders towing cars back from auctions on A frames

[Guest DJP]

JudgeMental - 2007-10-27 10:47 PM

 

 

There was a new member on here recently, a traffic cop probably scared of by the gremlins. who had been involved with prosecuting people. his examples were motor traders towing cars back from auctions on A frames

 

The car traders/garages use towing DOLLIES not A frames. The two should not be confused. A towing dolly is only a temporary device which can be quickly fixed and removed to almost any car. An A frame as we know needs to fixed (or a portion of it) permamently to the towed car and is made specifically for that vehicle.

[Brian Kirby]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I can quite follow the logic of all this Dennis.

To illustrate: the penalty for murder is life imprisonment.  If you were to ask on here if anybody actually knows someone who has been prosecuted for murder, I suspect the answer would be no.  However, that would not prove that murderers do not get life, it would merely mean we all have law abiding friends (Hmmmmmmm.  Well, you see what I mean?)

Regarding A frames and trailers, there are legal requirements concerning brakes.  Where these are legally required, in their absence the A frame/trailer is illegal.  Whether the owner gets prosecuted for this will depend on whether the absence is noticed, by whom, and the circumstances at the time.  Friendly plod, noticing say in a car park, probably just the Gipsy's warning.  Ram another vehicle from behind, causing injury to it's occupants, and you'll probably get the book thrown at you. 

The latter may apply even with a braked A frame.  I seriously doubt the towed vehicle's brakes do work to the extent required by law and, if accused of having a trailer with defective brakes that had contributed to the severity of an accident, I assume the onus may fall to the owner to prove otherwise.  Interesting implications to this. 

Thus, in UK, the A frame remains a grey area, largely because there is an absence of case law relating to its use. 

However, in Europe, unlike the UK, the general rule is that unless specifically authorised, something is deemed illegal, and A frames are not authorised.  The A frame therefore starts off as illegal, and would definately be judged so if used on vehicles registered outside the UK. 

A possible exception arises because things that are legal in the country a vehicle is registered, are allowed a "right of passage" through other European countries.  Whether this right can be claimed in respect of A frames used in conjunction with UK registered vehicles is a moot point, since, in the absence of specific legislation or case law, there is no evidence to establish their legality one way or the other.

Those who rely on the absence of prosecution as evidence of tacit legality, are probably making a mistake, but only time will tell.  It's a bit like the man who fell from the roof of the Empire State building, and was heard muttering "so far so good" as he passed each floor. 

How lucky do you feel?

[mark lambert]

isn't it nice to have Brian back talking sense.

[michele]

Yes it is ..hope you had a nice break Brian ;-)

[davenewellhome]

"To illustrate: the penalty for murder is life imprisonment. If you were to ask on here if anybody actually knows someone who has been prosecuted for murder, I suspect the answer would be no. However, that would not prove that murderers do not get life, it would merely mean we all have law abiding friends (Hmmmmmmm. Well, you see what I mean?)"

 

Actually I do know someone who was prosecuted for murder and convicted (in my opinion wrongly but that's a whole different can of worms). The person in question served about five years in prison and has, since being released back into society gone on to become a licensee (make of that whatever you want, its a long story and not one that I will go into in any detail).

 

My point, if I have one at all is to NOT rely on British justice to be either right or sensible. Regarding A frames, you do or don't as you see fit. I believe they don't meet current British regulations but then I don't care very much as I don't use one.

 

There are A frames available for temporary attachment to a towed vehicle using either chains or straps to effect the connection. These are strictly only for recovery after a breakdown or accident to a safe place and the same applies to towing dollies.

 

D.

 

P.S. Hello Brian :-)

[Guest DJP]

Brian Kirby - 2007-10-28 12:07 PM

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I can quite follow the logic of all this Dennis.

p>

I can't see where yopu are going with this either. At NO point have I ever said towing with an A Frame is legal or illegal. I merely commented that after posting on various forums a question if anyone knew anyone who had been prosecuted and a post came back from this site to say someone had actually spoken to two people who had been prosecuted. I simply found that incredible. That does not support A Frame towing does it?I am fully aware of trailer towing in the UK and Europe and "the right of passage" "law?" You also say

The A frame therefore starts off as illegal, and would definately be judged so if used on vehicles registered outside the UK.

if we want to be silly about it. What about cars registered in USA cars in UK/Europe or UK cars with A Frames in USA. Legal or illegal?

Regarding A frames and trailers, there are legal requirements concerning brakes. Where these are legally required, in their absence the A frame/trailer is illegal. Whether the owner gets prosecuted for this will depend on whether the absence is noticed, by whom, and the circumstances at the time. Friendly plod, noticing say in a car park, probably just the Gipsy's warningDoes anyone know anyone who has had a Gipsy's warning then? :D There are A frames available for temporary attachment to a towed vehicle using either chains or straps to effect the connection. These are strictly only for recovery after a breakdown or accident to a safe place and the same applies to towing dollies. That's exactly what I said too, Brian.I don't know how I can make my post any clearer?If you have any specific questions, go ahead, ask.

[Brian Kirby]

Well, from your posts, Denis, it just seemed to me that you were rather challenging us all to cite an instance of someone being warned or prosecuted for using some form of A frame.

I assumed there must be a point underlying this challenge (otherwise why bother?), and the most likely point, given the context, seemed to be that if no-one could be shown to have been cautioned or prosecuted, it would be safe to assume A frames are tacitly accepted by the authorities as legal.

Since I believe this conclusion is unsafe, the more so in Europe, I thought the underlying assumption should be countered.  That's all. 

And no, I wasn't trying to be silly; just trying to point out that despite all the optimistic assertions to the contrary, the legal position of A frames on UK registered vehicles, whether at home or abroad, is not quite so cut and dried as some would have us believe.

Sorry if that offended you.

[Martyn Ward.]

Which all of the above goes to show that it would be simpler, and cheaper 8-) , to buy a caravan :D :D :D

 

Martyn

[Guest DJP]

Brian Kirby - 2007-10-28 5:11 PM

Well, from your posts, Denis, it just seemed to me that you were rather challenging us all to cite an instance of someone being warned or prosecuted for using some form of A frame.

I assumed there must be a point underlying this challenge (otherwise why bother?), and the most likely point, given the context, seemed to be that if no-one could be shown to have been cautioned or prosecuted, it would be safe to assume A frames are tacitly accepted by the authorities as legal.

Since I believe this conclusion is unsafe, the more so in Europe, I thought the underlying assumption should be countered.  That's all. 

And no, I wasn't trying to be silly; just trying to point out that despite all the optimistic assertions to the contrary, the legal position of A frames on UK registered vehicles, whether at home or abroad, is not quite so cut and dried as some would have us believe.

Sorry if that offended you.

Hi BrianI have a personal interest in A Frames and the legal issues surrounding thier use. I do tow with an A Frame in Uk and Europe and have done for several years covering several thousand miles.The reason I asked the question was not to give people the impression that A frame usage is legal because of what I believed was zero prosecutions. Again at no pont have I ever said that it was or even may be legal. IF someone can prove to me that person/s have been successfully prosecuted for using an A Frame, I would have to consider my continued usage. It was meant to be a simple request to help me be a little clearer in this "grey" area.You did not offend me at all. I just wanted reasons for my post to be understood a little better.Dennis

[Miami]

Hi Brian I have a personal interest in A Frames and the legal issues surrounding thier use. I do tow with an A Frame in Uk and Europe and have done for several years covering several thousand miles. The reason I asked the question was not to give people the impression that A frame usage is legal because of what I believed was zero prosecutions. Again at no pont have I ever said that it was or even may be legal. IF someone can prove to me that person/s have been successfully prosecuted for using an A Frame, I would have to consider my continued usage. It was meant to be a simple request to help me be a little clearer in this "grey" area. You did not offend me at all. I just wanted reasons for my post to be understood a little better. Dennis

That's exactly what I asked days ago and we still haven't had anyone admit to being prosecuted.

Just driven back from Hampshire with the car behind in the pouring rain and after entering the M4 a Police car came up behind with lights flashing. This is it, I thought, but they pulled out and passed us and the co-driver gave an apologetic wave!!

[Guest Le Thou]

Martyn Ward. - 2007-10-28 5:40 PM

 

Which all of the above goes to show that it would be simpler, and cheaper 8-) , to buy a caravan :D :D :D

 

Martyn

Off the topic Martyn.....in my opinion caravans are a different animal and is a totally different debate, personlly you couldn,t pay me to own and pull a caravan

[Mel E]

Denis,

 

I really don't know why I'm bothering to reply to you because you will clearly selectively believe whatever suits you.

 

I stated on this thread that I had met two people who have received instant fines in Spain for towing with an A-Frame. I met both at camp sites, one the day he was fined. I WAS NOT TELLING LIES so why do you go to such effort to suggest I am (words like 'amazing'). Neither was the uncle of my second cousin twice removed.

 

Of course, I did not take the names, addresses, vehicle reg nos, etc., of those involved, so I cannot prove anything.

 

I have also met two other campers who were stopped, not fined, but told they could only proceed if the car was uncoupled and driven separately - again in Spain. Both were on the road between Burgos and Granada.

 

You ask a question, choose to disbelieve the answer (or go to quite extreme lengths to suggest that's your feeling). So why not stick to those other forums that clearly give you the answers you want to hear?

 

Mel E

====

 

[Miami]

Looks like it is Spain that has the problem then?

As long as we don't get stopped here I am happy as we don't take our car abroad.

[Guest DJP]

Mel E

I did not say you WAS telling lies. I used the word amazing

–verb (used with object) 1. to overwhelm with surprise or sudden wonder; astonish greatly.

What word would you have preferred me to use to explain that I was "amazed", "surprised""astounded""bewildered" at the fact that you had actually spoken to two people and no one else has admitted now or previously that they new of anyone who had had a similar meeting with people who had been prosecuted.

I have heard of people and know people who have been asked to unhitch and drive on, but that was not the question.

I asked the question in an earlier post and you replied someone had recently spoken to two people who had been prosecuted. You suggested I did a search. Why did you not say at that time it was you?

 

I think after less than a week on this site I will call it a day. I don't need to be told to go back to other forums. I'm off.

Don't bother with a reply.

Just before I go i will make 1 further post on a new topic.