Towing with A frame

[Miami]

DJP - 2007-10-29 2:57 PM Mel E I did not say you WAS telling lies. I used the word amazing –verb (used with object) 1. to overwhelm with surprise or sudden wonder; astonish greatly. What word would you have preferred me to use to explain that I was "amazed", "surprised""astounded""bewildered" at the fact that you had actually spoken to two people and no one else has admitted now or previously that they new of anyone who had had a similar meeting with people who had been prosecuted. I have heard of people and know people who have been asked to unhitch and drive on, but that was not the question. I asked the question in an earlier post and you replied someone had recently spoken to two people who had been prosecuted. You suggested I did a search. Why did you not say at that time it was you? I think after less than a week on this site I will call it a day. I don't need to be told to go back to other forums. I'm off. Don't bother with a reply. Just before I go i will make 1 further post on a new topic.

Whoops! There go the toys then!!!!!!

Sorry you are leaving as you did have a lot to offer. There's now't so queer as folk whatever forum you are on.

[enodreven]

How did "DJP" remove himself from the forum, e.g. there's no link to his name ?? how do you do this ??

[J9withdogs]

I've said it before - discussions about A-Frames should be banned.

 

It ALWAYS ends in tears. *-)

[Guest Tracker]

Only because some people CHOOSE to interpret innocently presented views as personal attacks just because they don't agree.

 

But then again if they CHOOSE to leave rather than try and resolve their differences who is the real loser?

 

Answers to TRACKER in the usual format please - ie on the back of a £20 note (or £5 if you are tight fisted like me). Thanks.

[michele]

enodreven - 2007-10-29 4:23 PM

 

How did "DJP" remove himself from the forum, e.g. there's no link to his name ?? how do you do this ??

Brian he started a whole new thread and he asked the Mods to remove him and anything that he had posted . I guess they obliqed *-)

[enodreven]

Hi, Michele

 

Thanks just so I know for future referance

 

 

 

michele - 2007-10-29 5:11 PM

 

enodreven - 2007-10-29 4:23 PM

 

How did "DJP" remove himself from the forum, e.g. there's no link to his name ?? how do you do this ??

Brian he started a whole new thread and he asked the Mods to remove him and anything that he had posted . I guess they obliqed *-)

[davenewellhome]

As with Diggdeep and Wee Jock who have been a bit irritable over nothing I think they will lose more than us. Never mind.

 

D.

[sundance kid]

Dave Newell

Just when you may have thought the A Frame argument was dead and buried. If I understand the following correctly, could be your views on A Frames has been right all along.

 

Mike

 

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

 

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson

Primary Safety Branch

Department for Transport

 

[Basil]

enodreven - 2007-10-29 5:31 PM

 

Hi, Michele

 

Thanks just so I know for future referance

 

 

 

michele - 2007-10-29 5:11 PM

 

enodreven - 2007-10-29 4:23 PM

 

How did "DJP" remove himself from the forum, e.g. there's no link to his name ?? how do you do this ??

Brian he started a whole new thread and he asked the Mods to remove him and anything that he had posted . I guess they obliqed *-)

 

Hi Brian,

 

Is there something you are not telling us? B-) B-) B-)

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

sundance kid - 2007-11-19 8:51 PM Dave Newell Just when you may have thought the A Frame argument was dead and buried. If I understand the following correctly, could be your views on A Frames has been right all along. Mike In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device. From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law. Alan Mendelson Primary Safety Branch Department for Transport

Interesting, isn't it?  He sets out all the things that would be required to make a car towed on a A frame legal, including making the servo system work while on tow - which so far as I know no A frame maker can achieve - goes on to acknowledge these will be difficult to achieve, and then ends by saying that he hopes from "the above" it is clear the DoT believes the use of A frames is legal provided his apparently unachievable pre-conditions are met.  Rather the reverse, I should have thought?  What he seems to me to be saying quite clearly, is that unless the requirement to maintain servo brake efficiency and provide drag free reversing are met, A frame towing is probably illegal, but the courts have not yet established this to be the case.  Its that thing about the British presumption of legality until legislated against or ruled otherwise in Common Law by the courts.  Heigh ho, no wonder there is such confusion!

[Dave Newell]

Yeah, wot 'e said/\/

D.

[enodreven]

Hi, Brian

 

While I accept your premise as quoted below, both of the items/functions descrbed can be achived at a cost, which at this time I would suggest a figure of around £500, albeit the final cost has not yet been calculated fully, so if the letter is correct then it would seem that "A" frames could be made legal subject to ???

 

Hope that helps

 

Brian

 

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-20 12:14 AM

 

Rather the reverse, I should have thought?  What he seems to me to be saying quite clearly, is that unless the requirement to maintain servo brake efficiency and provide drag free reversing are met, A frame towing is probably illegal,

[Mel E]

Even if you do solve the servo assistance and the no drag requirements (and £500 seems to me to be a significant underestimate, including fitting), how do you reverse a trailer that will always castor steer in the wrong direction. And when it does, the normal methods of correcting swing when reversing a trailer will simply make it worse.

 

Incidentally, the quote from the DforT letter is just that - a partial quote that does not give the whole story.

 

Mel E

====

[enodreven]

Hi, Mel E

 

I didn't post the letter i was just responding to what was said about it ? if there is more to the letter then i wish people would post the whole thing, as we keep getting snippets of information ? how can anyone answer a question if people don't provide the full information ?

 

If you have the full story rather than another partial quote please post it on hear so we can all read it.

 

As for the steering we are still looking at that particular aspect and studying the regulations in respect of that, as it is not that clear from the regulations, what is expected and how the control can be effected ?? will let you know more when we have a answer ????

 

Thanks

 

Brian

 

Mel E - 2007-11-20 9:44 AM

 

Incidentally, the quote from the DforT letter is just that - a partial quote that does not give the whole story.

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Hi found this electric vucuum pump here: http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/69A3151A-1A1.aspx#customerReview

 

$288 so after postage about the same in pounds, easy DIY fit.

 

Olley

[sundance kid]

Brian.

Here is the complete transcript.

Mike.

 

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522

PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533

St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk

Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop

Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson

Primary Safety Branch

Department for Transport

 

 

 

[enodreven]

Hi, Mike

 

Thanks for the full document, I think from reading it, the extract that you quoted earlier more or less covered the general points quite adequately

 

Sorry if it put you to to much inconvenience,

 

However, I do sometimes wish when people quote or suggest that they have specific facts relating to the subject that is under disscussion they would take the time to actually post the specific regulation or document or give a link to the document or regulation that they are referring to rather than just make comments that are difficult to validate

 

Thanks again

 

Brian

 

 

 

Brian

 

 

 

sundance kid - 2007-11-20 2:14 PM

 

Brian.

Here is the complete transcript.

Mike.

 

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522

PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533

St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk

Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop

Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson

Primary Safety Branch

Department for Transport

 

 

[Miami]

Goodness knows if it is legal or not after reading that!!!!!

[sundance kid]

No Trouble Brian.

I was seriously considering buying an A Frame for next spring but will look into the pros and cons of a trailer.

Mike

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

I have been trying to get other members of this forum and motorhometoday.co.uk to put there expertise's together to try and find a way of making "A" frames meet the regulations, as they certainly make a lot more sense if you do want to take a car with you than a trailer, if for no other reason than the storage problems associated with trailers ??

 

Hopefully one day we will come up with a solution ??

 

Brian

 

 

 

sundance kid - 2007-11-20 4:10 PM

 

No Trouble Brian.

I was seriously considering buying an A Frame for next spring but will look into the pros and cons of a trailer.

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

I think the simplest answer must be to source a vehicle weighing less than 750Kg, which does not need to be braked.  Have a look at John Wickersham's article on trailers in the December MMM.  I think that will clearly illustrate the difficulty of ensuring servo assisted brakes have servo power for stopping, but none for reversing. 

It seems it would be necessary to install some kind of valve in the brake servo line, to isolate the vacuum reservoir when reverse was engaged, so that servo assistance of the brakes was prevented in that case.  Whereas this may be possible via an interconnection with the tow vehicle's reversing light, it would require an intervention in the towed vehicle's braking system that could have disastrous consequences should it operate when actually driving.  It would therefore be interesting to see how an insurance company would react to the proposal. 

An earlier discussion came up with a device called a "brake buddy", which operates the footbrake rather than the handbrake for stopping; which I assume would be essential in the case of servo assisted braking systems.  It was not clear how this could be adjusted to prevent the towed vehicle's brakes locking when applied by a simple overrun device.  There is also the little matter of modern vehicle electronics, and such things as ABS, EBD and ASR, all/any of which normally act to modify how the brakes perform.  With the ignition off, none of these would work, while the uncontrolled servo would be actuated by a simple overrun lever. 

Sooner you than me, buddy!  I've frightened myself so much now I'll have to go to lie down to recover!

[Miami]

Trouble is Brian, if you have a car under 750 kg it has got brakes and they must work if it is being towed.

Towtal have always worked on the 750 kg so called rule but I have never seen a car without brakes!!!!!!!!!

[enodreven]

Hi, BrianI hadn't thought of any of your possible suggestions, mine were a lot more simpler than those you have proposed and they all should fail safe in the event of a failureBut i will keep in mind your suggestions as they may be of some use, if my proposals aren't affectiveThanksI think the suggestion about the vehicle being under 750kg and therefore supposedly not needing brakes has been discussed at length before and it goes something like if its got brakes then no matter how much it weighs the brakes must work ? or something like that ??BrianEDIT:- Sorry "John S." I didn't see your reply

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-20 5:56 PM

I think the simplest answer must be to source a vehicle weighing less than 750Kg, which does not need to be braked.  Have a look at John Wickersham's article on trailers in the December MMM.  I think that will clearly illustrate the difficulty of ensuring servo assisted brakes have servo power for stopping, but none for reversing. 

It seems it would be necessary to install some kind of valve in the brake servo line, to isolate the vacuum reservoir when reverse was engaged, so that servo assistance of the brakes was prevented in that case.  Whereas this may be possible via an interconnection with the tow vehicle's reversing light, it would require an intervention in the towed vehicle's braking system that could have disastrous consequences should it operate when actually driving.  It would therefore be interesting to see how an insurance company would react to the proposal. 

An earlier discussion came up with a device called a "brake buddy", which operates the footbrake rather than the handbrake for stopping; which I assume would be essential in the case of servo assisted braking systems.  It was not clear how this could be adjusted to prevent the towed vehicle's brakes locking when applied by a simple overrun device.  There is also the little matter of modern vehicle electronics, and such things as ABS, EBD and ASR, all/any of which normally act to modify how the brakes perform.  With the ignition off, none of these would work, while the uncontrolled servo would be actuated by a simple overrun lever. 

Sooner you than me, buddy!  I've frightened myself so much now I'll have to go to lie down to recover!

[davenewellhome]

Not that I'm actually terribly bothered any more but here is a quote from the above document regarding brakes and the 750KG limit that clarifies the issue I think.

 

"Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly."

 

D.

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

and round and around in circles we go. tenacity whilst normally admirable, is in this case excruciatingly boring and akin to flogging a dead horse.

 

if legality was mechanically and economically achievable don't you think it would have been achieved by now.

 

from some one who purchased a car for the purpose and then quickly sold it after looking at the facts....