Towing with A frame

[Miami]

JudgeMental - 2007-11-20 7:38 PM  if legality was mechanically and economically achievable don't you think it would have been achieved by now.

Don't be silly-this is England!!!!!

[enodreven]

Hi,

 

I really do find it strange why people who have obviously made up their own mind about a subject, then try to stifle debate.

 

Surely if you are disinterested in trying to find a possible resolution to the problem then why do you feel the necessity to post on the subject

 

This happens on a number of subjects not just "A" frames, please think before you post, if you really aren't interested then let others who are discuss what ever they want that's what freedom of speech is about.

 

Brian

 

 

[Miami]

enodreven - 2007-11-20 7:52 PM Hi, I really do find it strange why people who have obviously made up their own mind about a subject, then try to stifle debate. Surely if you are disinterested in trying to find a possible resolution to the problem then why do you feel the necessity to post on the subject This happens on a number of subjects not just "A" frames, please think before you post, if you really aren't interested then let others who are discuss what ever they want that's what freedom of speech is about. Brian

Sorry Brian, do you mean the Judge?

[enodreven]

Hi, MiamiNo one specific but it seems to be happen more and more on this site, some people just appear to want to say something even if its really not helpful, i really don't know why.

Miami - 2007-11-20 8:00 PM

enodreven - 2007-11-20 7:52 PM Hi, I really do find it strange why people who have obviously made up their own mind about a subject, then try to stifle debate. Surely if you are disinterested in trying to find a possible resolution to the problem then why do you feel the necessity to post on the subject This happens on a number of subjects not just "A" frames, please think before you post, if you really aren't interested then let others who are discuss what ever they want that's what freedom of speech is about. Brian

Sorry Brian, do you mean the Judge?

[colin]

Reading mike' post it seems I was correct 'many moons ago' when I said it was permissble for the towing vehicles brakes to be plugged into the 'trailers' braking system, IF a manufacturer wanted to design a system I'm sure it could be made to work, BUT it would proboly be a whole load of hassle as proboly each combination would require it's own set-up, as no company seems to make such a system at present then it seems brian that you need to take the lead, commision some one to do work, and reap the rewards such an investment would make. :-S

[Brian Kirby]

davenewell@home - 2007-11-20 7:00 PM Not that I'm actually terribly bothered any more but here is a quote from the above document regarding brakes and the 750KG limit that clarifies the issue I think. "Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly." D.

Yep, you're all right.  Silly me.  Strike out the sub 750Kg car!  That just leaves.......er......er....well, what does it leave?  Not a lot, I fancy!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Miami - 2007-11-20 8:00 PM

enodreven - 2007-11-20 7:52 PM Hi, I really do find it strange why people who have obviously made up their own mind about a subject, then try to stifle debate. Surely if you are disinterested in trying to find a possible resolution to the problem then why do you feel the necessity to post on the subject This happens on a number of subjects not just "A" frames, please think before you post, if you really aren't interested then let others who are discuss what ever they want that's what freedom of speech is about. Brian

Sorry Brian, do you mean the Judge?

Blimey, do you think? lol

[Dave Newell]

Oh yes, I almost forgot to point this out, the brakes being used by A frame systems are the service brake not the parking brake. To put that in plain English it is the footbrake system and not the handbrake system that is used with A frames that do have operational brakes. To only use the handbrake would definitely NOT meet the C&U regs for trailers as all wheels that have brakes fitted must be used for braking duties.

 

As for the possible braking efficiencies, why not find a friendly MOT station and ask them to do a rolling road brake test without the engine runnig (don't forget to pump the brake pedal a few times to exhaust the vacuum reservoir first though) and see what you get. This would be of real interest if there were some way of measuring the actual force applied to the brake pedal at the same time.

 

D.

[enodreven]

Hi, Dave

 

Totally agree with the points you have made,

 

And for anyone who is still interested in trying to make "A" frames meet the regulations, without getting into an argument:-

 

Just to clarify some of the points that have been raised, Olley has posted above a link to a piece of equipment that may overcome the braking efficiency as it re-introduces the vacuum to the servo so hopefully that would help with the type of "A" frames that have the overrun devices fitted and connected to the cars braking system.

 

The second point that has been raised is the automatic braking system for reversing which I am in the process of discussing with a couple of people one a very helpful member of this site and the other a manufacturer from the north of England all of which I hope will resolve this problem, taking into account a fail-safe position.

 

That hopefully, as far as i can see at the moment leaves the other major problem of actually reversing the vehicle, which as I said above we are still looking into both the physical aspect and the actual regulatory aspect, and I would be grateful if anyone can help on this particular point

 

Thanks

Brian

 

 

Dave Newell - 2007-11-21 10:10 AM

 

Oh yes, I almost forgot to point this out, the brakes being used by A frame systems are the service brake not the parking brake. To put that in plain English it is the footbrake system and not the handbrake system that is used with A frames that do have operational brakes. To only use the handbrake would definitely NOT meet the C&U regs for trailers as all wheels that have brakes fitted must be used for braking duties.

 

As for the possible braking efficiencies, why not find a friendly MOT station and ask them to do a rolling road brake test without the engine runnig (don't forget to pump the brake pedal a few times to exhaust the vacuum reservoir first though) and see what you get. This would be of real interest if there were some way of measuring the actual force applied to the brake pedal at the same time.

 

D.

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

All that the standard trailer regulations require is theat the vehicle and trailer combination be capable of being reversed under full control of the driver.

 

This is no different, of course, from a vehcile going forward, which must also be in full control of the driver.

 

Unfortunately, it requires very considerable expertise to reverse a trailer consisting of a car on an A frame, because of the car's tendency to castor steer. If both vehicles start in a straight line, it's a lot easier, but if the combination is going round a bend or is requires to do so when reversing, it becomes almost impossible and it tends to be the driver that goes round the bend. The problem is that, once the car's front wheels move even slightly away from the straight ahead position, the lateral forces immediately tend to force the front wheels onto full lock.

 

Because the combination must be able to reverse without any alteration to the trailer or coupling by an outside party, locking the car's steering in the straight ahead position is also not a solution.

 

I apologise to our member who wanted chapter and verse quoted, but I simply cannot remember the relevant clauses of the UK Construction & Use Regulations 1986 that apply here - and there have been over 100 amendments to these Regs since 1986. You'll just have to take my word for it that I did read it all in the Library in preparation for the items I have written on the subject for MMM.

 

Mel E

====

[Miami]

Thanks Mel for all that. It is interesting that the relevant law dates back to the 1980's!

What none of the explanations take into account is that the car can be quickly unhooked and driven off under it's own steam whereas a trailer or caravan can't. I am sure that I can disconnect the car and move both vehicles far faster than most people are able to reverse a caravan!!

I do accept, however, that the law does not state that this is legal.

I think enough has been said on the 'A' frame subject to prove that it is illegal under the present legislation but we could continue to try and get it altered.

Who is going to go to court first to prove it one way or the other?

[enodreven]

Hi, Mel E

 

Thanks for your input, there are questions that i need to resolve with regard to the word "Control" as the interpretation of this word is crucial to the understanding of the EEC regulation and it could play a major part in the resolution we are looking for, as while a lot of people read the word and take it to mean what they have always understood it to mean.

 

I am sure you are aware that this not the case when it comes to some regulations as they have a DEFINITIONS section at the beginning which gives precise details on how certain words/phrases etc. shall be interpreted when found within the content of the regulation document and this is where we may find a resolution to the problem we face.

 

I will let you know if we find a way forward on this front ?

 

The second point is, that from your reply and from what other people have told me who have "A" frames, if i have understood you and them correctly it appears you and they are saying clearly that while its very difficult and very nearly impossible to reverse an "A" framed trailer/car in certain situations, ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE, therefore that may in itself be acceptable under the regulations and within the UK Law as if i understand what you and they are saying, if someone practiced long and hard they could make any reversing maneuver and if that is the case then the the regulation would be met.

 

I would be interested in anyone who has an "A" frame fitted as to if what has been said can be achieved and perhaps made workable with a lot of practice ??

 

There are a number of other avenues that i am looking at as i said earlier, and any help it finding a resolution to this problem would be welcome, and i would be very interested if anyone can provide me with a link to the specific regulations and the paragraphs which specifically detail the reversing maneuver ??

 

Any help on this subject is most welcome so please help me try to resolve this ongoing problem, but what ever you do please don't let it digress into an argument as so often happens ?? as that helps no one

 

Thanks

 

 

Mel E - 2007-11-21 4:48 PM

 

Brian,

 

All that the standard trailer regulations require is theat the vehicle and trailer combination be capable of being reversed under full control of the driver.

 

This is no different, of course, from a vehcile going forward, which must also be in full control of the driver.

 

Unfortunately, it requires very considerable expertise to reverse a trailer consisting of a car on an A frame, because of the car's tendency to castor steer. If both vehicles start in a straight line, it's a lot easier, but if the combination is going round a bend or is requires to do so when reversing, it becomes almost impossible

 

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Hi ordered the vacuum pump today via Linda at stateside, I intend to have the "A" frame wired with a 13pin euro connector, so the pump is powered from my RV, doing it like this means there is no chance of it running when its not being towed. I will also be able to run a feed back from the towcars brake lights to a warning light on the dash in the RV.

 

I just need some sort of device to lock the brakes off on the "A" frame when reversing, and I think that will be one of the "illegal" aspects out of the way.

 

I wonder if one answer to the steering question would be to lock the wheels in the straight ahead position, as 99% of all my towing is done on main roads or m/ways would a short wheel base car suffer to much with tyre scrub when being towed forward? and would it then be capable of being reversed? After all we reverse four wheel trailers, I do accept the wheels are much closer together.

 

Olley

[Miami]

Hi Olley

Wouldn't a Brakebuddy serve the same purpose as a vacuum pump. Mine works very well and if I pump up the pressure it will almost stop the MH.

As for locking the front wheels in a straight ahead position, as soon as you try to reverse and move slightly off line the car wheels will end up moving at any angle locked or not. I would have thought you would stand a chance of ripping the tyres of the wheel!

I did try reversing a few months ago with ours when we got caught in the floods and had to turn round. The front wheels immediately shot round to face the wrong direction. There is another answer:- put the other half in the driving seat of the car while reversing!!!!

I am sure that is illegal.

[Mel E]

I'll (hopefully) close this thread with three thoughts:

 

1. Every attempt to try and make A-frames legal on this thread have so far stumbled and . . .

 

2. I feel that no-one shoul spend too much time on this as the next EU Directive on Trilers, etc., is almost certain to be explicit about its illegality.

 

3. By al means write to your MEP, but be aware that, by starting a campaign, you also draw attention to the topic.

 

Mel E

====

[Miami]

Mel E - 2007-11-23 5:11 PM I'll (hopefully) close this thread with three thoughts: 1. Every attempt to try and make A-frames legal on this thread have so far stumbled and . . . 2. I feel that no-one shoul spend too much time on this as the next EU Directive on Trilers, etc., is almost certain to be explicit about its illegality. 3. By al means write to your MEP, but be aware that, by starting a campaign, you also draw attention to the topic. Mel E ====

I agree. A low profile is what is required!!!!!!!

[enodreven]

Hi, Olley

 

PM me with you email address and I will send you a copy of the information I have regarding the automation of the overrun device

 

Brian

 

olley - 2007-11-21 6:20 PM

 

Hi ordered the vacuum pump today via Linda at stateside, I intend to have the "A" frame wired with a 13pin euro connector, so the pump is powered from my RV, doing it like this means there is no chance of it running when its not being towed. I will also be able to run a feed back from the towcars brake lights to a warning light on the dash in the RV.

 

I just need some sort of device to lock the brakes off on the "A" frame when reversing, and I think that will be one of the "illegal" aspects out of the way.

 

I wonder if one answer to the steering question would be to lock the wheels in the straight ahead position, as 99% of all my towing is done on main roads or m/ways would a short wheel base car suffer to much with tyre scrub when being towed forward? and would it then be capable of being reversed? After all we reverse four wheel trailers, I do accept the wheels are much closer together.

 

Olley

[olley]

Hi MelE, do you know how they could make it explicitly illegal?

 

Olley

[Mel E]

Olley,

 

Very easily. At present it is explicitly illegal to tow a car on an A-frame as follows:

 

- where the trailer has a MAM (not an ACTUAL weight but its Maximum Authorised Mass) which exceeds 750 Kgs. ALL cars sold in the UK (except the Aixam and Ligier which no self-respecting person would be seen dead in) have a MAM of more than 750 Kgs.

 

- on an A-Frame dolly unless the tow is for the purpose of recovery of a broken down vehicle when speed limits of 40mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20mph on all other roads apply.

 

All that is required is a clause such as the following:

 

"Clause xxx.xx.x It is not permitted to tow a car behind another vehicle whatever form of attachment is used to effect a such a tow provide for braking or provide for lighting of the car except as pemitted in these regulations explicitly for the recovery of a broken down vehicle. Attaching a car to a vehicle does not make it a trailer and trailer regulations do not apply to such a combination."

 

That should do it. You will note that, in common with almost all English Law there is no punctuation since that can introduce ambiguity into legal phrases.

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Hi Mel E thanks for that, to your knowledge are they intending to be that explicit?

 

Olley

[enodreven]

Hi, MiamiBe careful in taking that approach, as representations may already be being made [or compiled] to the regulative section that deals with these issues requesting that "A" frames be made illegal. If this is already the case, or was to be in the future, then unless people who use them keep themselves aware of the situation then there will be no opposition ?Mel E, can you advise on this, do you know if any one is making representations to try and outlaw the use of "A" frames ??. Only it would be helpful if people who use them were made aware if any approaches were to be made to try and outlaw them. As that would give those users a chance to perhaps discuss it together to see if they felt a direct approach would be in there interests.

Miami - 2007-11-23 5:44 PM

I agree. A low profile is what is required!!!!!!!

[Miami]

Interesting letter in the Caravan Club Magazine Page 66 this month on 'A''s.

Doesn't off much hope of it becoming legal I'm afraid!

[Mel E]

The only way I know of to keep abreast of proposed EU legislation is to monitor the appropriate EU web sites on which proposals are published.

 

That, or to find a body in the UK that does the monitoring for you - but such legislation is unlikely to be of interest to the obvious bodies such as the Caravan Club (who already believe it to be illegal) or the Caravan Council (who represent UK manufacturers of Caravans and motorhomes).

 

You could, of coursem write to your MEP asking for the latest position on the topic.

 

Mel E

====

[Søren]

Mel E - 2007-10-27 10:52 AM

 

 

Can you post the link for people who have been fined for towing with an unbraked A frame please? I cannot find it.

Thanks

Dennis

 

Dennis,

 

It's in there somewhere and quite recent.

 

 

Mel E

====

 

It might have been my posting in this thread that you remember Mel...

 

Since then the chap and his boss have both pleaded guilty at court and have been fined. They were also reported for using a prohibited (excluded) vehicle on the motorway, namely a vehicle that was not compliant with construction and use regulations.

 

I have reported another three since. The reasons I regularly deal with these combinations is that I believe them to be inherently less safe because of the reduction in braking potential, especially if the towed vehicle is similar weight to the towing vehicle; also the potential of the towed vehicle to break free in a catastrophic situation.

 

[Mel E]

Soren,

 

Yes, it was you - but I was too lazy to do the other person's search for him!

 

I really could not agree with you more. Whilst towing unbraked with something as heavy as a motorhome may (I say 'may') be less of a problem, towing with a car certainly is not.

 

Because, unlike any other trailer, an A-frame is flexibly fixed in the vertical plane to the car (essential so it can ride the road bumps), if the towing car stops suddenly, the towed car can easily submarine under the tower or, worse, ride over it and impale it in the rear.

 

I have a documented case of someone who managed exactly that, writing off both (brand new) tow car and towed car in one easy move.

 

Mel E

====