peedee Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 All I can say is roll on the harmonisation of EU law which will clarify the situation and I would much rather see it given a higher profile than kept low key in the hope nothing will happen. It is far better to have clarity rather than the perpetuation of the current grey situation. I take it Soren would not pull a motorhome towing a car with a braked A-Frame then? I consulted one of my relatives, also a traffic policeman, over this and he certainly would not unless it obviously looked a dangerous combination! peedee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Hi Some years ago I attempted to move my RR silver Shadow on an A frame the RR was well inside the frames limit of 3 tons but as I came round the first roundabout the frame broke and the RR detached shooting across the road and hitting a tree at the time I was doing about 20mph in my Discovery but it spun it 180' facing on coming trafic and bent the hook. On reflection I think the problem was caused by the engine not running therefore no power steering so it was fighting the a frame on the rounabout. I had previousley a framed my 1934 RR( no power steering) without problems so power teering not working could be a problem also trying to steer with engine off on some cars can burst the pump and rack seals. Be Warned. Colin Frier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Doesn't this pretty much prove the point about NOT using 'A' frames! If you want to use one that's up to you, but it's when it doesn't 'behave' as you expect that the problems start ... had the car hit another car or worse, I wouldn't have liked to have tried to expalin that to the insurance company or have it on my conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Would this have the same effect on a Smart car weighing 750kgs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Le Thou - 2007-12-12 10:32 PM Would this have the same effect on a Smart car weighing 750kgs?? You won't have any problem towing a Smart. We didn't. Just remember to make sure it is in neutral!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Mel B - 2007-12-12 8:35 PM Doesn't this pretty much prove the point about NOT using 'A' frames! If you want to use one that's up to you, but it's when it doesn't 'behave' as you expect that the problems start ... had the car hit another car or worse, I wouldn't have liked to have tried to expalin that to the insurance company or have it on my conscience. So no one has ever had a trailer break free then? Trailers are 100% safe are they? Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 For goodness sake - can't we leave this argument alone. Fed up with reading about it.Nobody is going to win until the law is more specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Miami - 2007-12-13 10:14 AMFor goodness sake - can't we leave this argument alone. Fed up with reading about it.Nobody is going to win until the law is more specific.Aye........................but t'ain't arf entertainin' when there's nowt much on't telly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Le Thou - 2007-12-12 10:32 PM Would this have the same effect on a Smart car weighing 750kgs?? I thought Smart cars were more in the region of 990kg??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Nope. Thought wrong ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,750kgs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I thought that the Smart was 730kg unladen with a 260kg payload giving a MGLW of 990kg. If that is the case then it is the MGLW of the trailer that would be the required weight? Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Basil - 2007-12-14 3:33 PM I thought that the Smart was 730kg unladen with a 260kg payload giving a MGLW of 990kg. If that is the case then it is the MGLW of the trailer that would be the required weight? Bas Spot on Basil :-D Lot's seem to ignore that it is MGLW figure that counts regards towing and not unladen weight.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 The MGLW of the trailer is rated at 1660 kgs if that helps, but I fail to see how you can add a payload of 260 kgs whilst its on a trailer, two occupants perhaps??plus dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 Le Thou: I believe you need to differentiate between towing a Smart on an A-frame or carrying it on a trailer? If an A -frame is used to tow a car, then it's the car's maximum overall weight as specified by its manufacturer, INCLUDING payload, that defines whether or not the A-frame system may be un-braked or braked. As a Smart's maximum permitted weight including payload is around one tonne, an un-braked A-frame (where car + frame must weigh no more than 750kg) may not legally be employed. (I thought Mel E explained this very clearly earlier in this thread.) If a Smart is carried on a 'proper' trailer, the car's permitted payload becomes irrelevant. It's the actual weight of the car when it's placed on the trailer that's important as this contributes to the overall permitted weight of the trailer + whatever it is transporting. This limit will of course depend on the design load-capacity of the particular trailer being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 Towing any car on an A frame, other legalities aside, requires the towed vehicle's brakes to be operational regardless of weight issues. When connected to a towing vehicle by A frame the towed car is considered to be a trailer and any trailer that has brakes fitted is required to have them operated by an over-run coupling. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-12-15 10:16 AM Towing any car on an A frame, other legalities aside, requires the towed vehicle's brakes to be operational regardless of weight issues. When connected to a towing vehicle by A frame the towed car is considered to be a trailer and any trailer that has brakes fitted is required to have them operated by an over-run coupling. D. I am surprised at how often people don't seem to know this, after all the times its been said. Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Olley: I thought that, because everybody did know it, there was no need to repeat it. This is my "A-Frame Towing in a Nut-shell" view... 1. When a car is towed via an A-frame, the assembly of car + A-frame becomes a 'trailer' and subject to UK regulations appropriate to trailers. 2. Trailers fitted with brakes need to have them operational. Every car has brakes, hence an A-frame-towed car's brakes will need to be operating while the vehicle is being towed. As it's clearly irrational to consider a car + A-frame as an 'un-braked trailer', there's no point confusing matters by discussing un-braked trailer criteria like the 750kg weight limit. Forget un-braked A-frames - towing a car (however light it is) on an A-frame without the car's brakes being operated by the towing system cannot meet UK trailer rules. 3. When a 'trailer' uses an over-run braking system, the trailer's brakes must incorporate a mechanism that automatically disengages the brakes when the trailer is reversed. Obviously no cars have such brakes and, as far as I'm aware, all braked A-frames sold in the UK nowadays and historically employ an over-run braking system. (I notice that John Wickersham's MMM December 2007 article says that this rule applies to post-October-1988-built trailers. Whether it could be ignored if a car and A-frame were both manufactured before that date is anybody's guess. Anyway, I strongly suspect that no UK motorcaravanner is currently towing a 19+-year old car on a similar age A-frame.) Basically, towing a car on an A-frame employing an over-run system to operate the car's brakes cannot comply with UK trailer regulations. 4. There is the 'can the trailer be reversed' factor too, but it's the UK's auto-disengaging-brakes regulation that presents a technical obstacle that hasn't been surmounted by any present or past A-frame system marketed in this country. Motorcaravanners using, or contemplating using, an A-frame to tow a car seem to react to observations like the above as follows. One group will choose denial, evident by responses on the lines of "Hundreds of people do it", "I've been doing it safely for years", "The A-frame suppliers wouldn't sell an illegal product", "Insurance companies seem happy about it", etc. These are justifications not arguments. The second group will take the observations on board, then make an informed judgement on whether UK trailer-regulation non-compliance concerns them sufficiently to make them reject A-frame towing, or whether they will ignore such considerations. As I'm a 2nd group person myself (and perfectly capable of deliberately overlooking facts, regulations and good advice if I feel like it), I can't really understand why there's so much debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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