Why Buy New?

[BGD]

I was in PM conversation with someone here just now, and a thought ocurred to me........what makes people decide to buy a motorhome new, rather than 2nd (or 5th!) hand?

 

So here, for your delectation, is a perhaps controversial treatise on the benefits of buying MUCH cheaper, used.

 

 

 

Surely there can't be much weight given by "brand-new-buyers" to the economics or value-for-money of such a decision.

 

As an example, we bought our first van, a 1992 euromobil 4-berth overcab, on Peugeot J5 van base, earlier this year here in Spain for 6,000 euros (4,000 pounds). 2.5 litre diesel non-turbo, with power steering.

For it's age it's in simply fantastic condition. It was waxoiled totally, from new and there's not a jot of rust in it anywhere. It's done 140,000 kms, but the engine is absolutely fine.

Yes, so we only chug along at 50 to 60 mph, but we are genuinely getting about 29mpg average.

Inside, everything (astonishingly!) works absolutely perfectly - the hob, the sink, the hot and cold water, the heating system, the Theford elctric casette toilet, the shower, the 3-way fridge, etc etc.

There's no damp penetration anywhere, and (fingers crossed) it should be good for another 100,000 kms.

All this for 4,000 pounds.

Depreciation over the next few years on this purchase is going to be absoultely minimal, so long as we keep it in good, well-serviced condition.

Rear suspension was saggy, but for £135 a set of Graystone spring assisters has now totally cured that.

 

Now, by comparison, I see all the adverts for new vans, with prices in the 40,000 pound plus range for a comparable 4-berth overcab, without any/many of the extras that we got thrown in with ours (eg the bike rack, the windout awning, the TV stand, the various electric hookup cables, the box of spares and fuses and light bulbs, the extra gas bottle etc etc.

 

So what is it that makes people go for these (relatively) hugely more expensive motorhomes, then put up with all the teething/snagging problems of fit and finish that have to be sorted out under warranty.

 

I could buy at least ten, I repeat, TEN motorhomes like mine for the price of just one new one.

Or looking at it another way, if I'd had 40,000 plus to spend, i could have bought our MH and kept the other 36,000 pounds in a long term high interest account, paying out perhaps 2,500 pounds per year as income towards running costs, without any capital depreciation (other than via RPI inflation).

In future years I'd then STILL have a fund of 36,000 pounds available to fund repairs, running costs, further used-van purchases, loose women, a cocaine habit or anything else I fancied!

 

As a mental exercise for comparison, try to visualise on one side of the road a single new motorhome.

Then look across the road and see on the other side a whole line of TEN used motorhomes (each old but each functioning perfectly throughout and each with a lot of extras fitted). All ten of them parked up nose to tail, one after the other.

 

Thus, in my personal opinion there is absolutely no way that such a van could be TEN times better than the one we have.

Twice as good, perhaps.

Three times better, possibly.

But TEN times better??? I just cannot see it at all.

 

Just the depreciation hit on a 40K motorhome must be simply horrendous, from the very moment you collect it.

 

Then, I guess, as new owners you'll be terrified of dropping wine on the pristine upholstery, or (God forbid) actually getting some mud on that wonderful new deep pile carpet.

And the idea of any user-fettling, or drilling a hole anywhere in it must be totally SCARY!

 

So...........for those who've come at this choice from the other end and did buy brand new rather than saving vast amounts of money buying used which they could have then spent elsewhere, could you explain the logic to me of why did you not buy used?

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

 

 

[colin]

My present van was second hand and converted by myself, next wil be new, and why not, have got the cash and can specify just what I want, hopefully in 10years will sell to you cheap and buy another new van, if no one buys new there will be no secondhand

[BGD]

colin - 2007-10-27 8:04 PM

 

My present van was second hand and converted by myself, next wil be new, and why not, have got the cash and can specify just what I want, hopefully in 10years will sell to you cheap and buy another new van, if no one buys new there will be no secondhand

 

Thanks for your reply Colin - but I think you may have rather missed my point, or more likely I simply didn't express it very well.

 

What I wanted to understand in NOT that you have sufficient money to buy new, but why you are intent on spending it all on brand new rather than saving so much to enable you to spend much more on other things to enjoy/enrich your life AS WELL, by buying used.

 

Just because someone has sufficient disposable income to buy new does not mean that they should - simply that they could.

 

There's surely still gotta be a load of other factors in play to make you decide to spend 3 times, or 4 times, or 5 times, or 6 times, or 7 seven times, or 8 or more times more of your hard-earned savings pot than you would ever need to in order to obtain a perfectly functional and serviceable motorhome..............it's that aspect that I was seeking to open debate upon.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

 

 

[colin]

O.K. I'll add a little, but will point out you have missed one important part of my post 'I can specify just what I want'.

I have been looking around for some time for a van to suit my needs, prior to 2007 the only one I saw was Adria Twin on outgoing pug base, I find the old pug to be a real pain to drive and would not consider it, now I could wait for a second hand Adria on the new base but I want a replacement van for next spring what are the odds on finding Twin with the spec I want on the new base?

As to value, its the depriation you lose not the whole price, yes I know you lose more on a new van

Now to come at it from a different angle, why buy anything new?

 

[Basil]

Very simple, I want something for the Jonses to keep up with!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:-D :-D :-D

 

Bas

[Mel B]

Bruce, it appears you got a bargain when you bought your van, I suspect there aren't many of them around!

 

Unfortunately in the UK motorhomes are more likely to have rust etc by the time they get to the age of yours and have been ravaged a bit more by the weather etc. Getting a good one as you have may be possible but I would imagine it's quite rare.

 

Then there's all the other things to consider. Can you get the layout you want in an older van - think fixed bed for example - where there any of those around 10 years or so ago? Or garage models etc. How likely are you to get one with power steering that is 10-15 years old of the type you want?

 

There is definitely something to be said for buying a newish used one though, as quite a lot of dosh can be saved by doing this but again, if it's a new type of layout you want, then you have no choice but to buy new. One of the best deals is to pay the price you'd pay for a used one but get a new one! We did this with ours current van as it was one that the dealer needed to clear out to make room for his brand new 'straight of the production line' 'vans, in the end we think we saved about £6-7K as we got there at the right time with the right deal. We were actually looking for second hand vans but the deal, and the van, knocked spots off the rest.

 

I'm sure lots of people would love to be able to get a second hand van at a very good price with all the bits and pieces on and with the layout they want, but unfortunately it's not always possible. The other problem is that some people have vans to PX, yes they can sell them privately but I suspect not many people would like to have to do this.

 

I'll let someone else have a 'view' now.

 

Mel B

 

 

[bigal55]

nice post bruce, as someone who has bought all my cars for 20yrs at auction and caravans, 15yrs, 2nd hand i agree with all your points, BUT, iv,e just bought my ist m/home and it,s new. reasons: a 10yr old car is virtually worthless in the uk, whereas as 10yr old m/homes seem to start at £15000+ and the base vehicle is like a truck compared to the latest generation of vans. trade in, buy at the right time and the m/home you want is in stock and you can get a great deal. mine, payed before end aug, reg 1st sept, all the extras we wanted £5000 off list plus a better trade in than a caravan dealer was offering, euro 4 emissions, this may or may not be an issue in the future, probably more in the uk than spain,layout and interior exactly as her whose not in doors wanted, what ever you buy if you think you,ve got a good deal then it,s good deal whatever anybody else thinks, saying that it,s not moved for 2wks think of all that lost interest, sob sob, :'(

[Ralph]

New van has an unused toilet cassette. :-D

 

Seriously I've bought 3 new and one second hand. The disadvantage of the second hand was that it got older quicker. Of course it really aged at the usual rate but it was older to start with if you see what I mean?

 

 

[bigal55]

in addition we have a dog and iv,e drilled some holes as it,s our intention to keep it for a long time, probably heading your way after crimbo

[LordThornber]

We are very affluent and have no need whatsoever to consider resale values. And before anyone asks, it's better, in our opinion, to be have loads of dosh than less...

 

Martyn

[bigal55]

LordThornber - 2007-10-27 9:57 PM

 

We are very affulent and have no need whatsoever to consider resale values. And before anyone asks, it's better, in our opinion, to be have loads of dosh than less...

 

Martyn

do you live on,til

[LordThornber]

Hello Alan, summat will get us, won't it? So we are going to enjoy whatever comes our way. As a very wealthy friend of ours says, "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford the goods"...

 

Lord & Lady Thornber

[bigal55]

LordThornber - 2007-10-27 10:14 PM

 

Hello Alan, summat will get us, won't it? So we are going to enjoy whatever comes our way. As a very wealthy friend of ours says, "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford the goods"...

 

Lord & Lady Thornber

greetings your lordship, your right enjoy it while you can, spend it now because the kids will, are there still 4000 holes in blankburn >:-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

in total agreement with Lord & Lady Thornber, the idea of a secondhand or used! vehicle fills moi with horror!

 

And a motorhome even more so

 

Have you considered for one moment BGD the number of bottoms your toilet seat has experienced?

 

or the carnal rutting that has gone on in the beds by all sorts for heavens sake!

 

Plus all those bodily fluids - it dosen't bear thinking about......

 

 

[Tony Jones]

Do I detect a hint of jealousy, because most used vans have seen more of life than your new one has, Judge? :-D :-D :-D

 

Seriously though, I can see both sides of this (boring, aren't I?).

 

We bought Hannibal nearly 8 years ago for the princely sum of £3500, because he was already 11 yrs old and his bodywork was (to put it mildly) less than perfect.

Since then, we've rivetted over the rusty bits, painted him red, and been at least to France every summer, sometimes beyond (Spain, Germany, Luxembourg, Austria, Italy ... )

Terrific van, doesn't owe us anything, which is why we're happily giving him away at the end of the month to a young couple who'll get loads more enjoyment out of him.

 

Arrival of a legacy puts us in the once-in-a-lifetime position of being able to order a brand new van, and we're doing exactly that because it's probably the only chance we'll have for an "upgrade," so we want something that'll last us well into retirement.

 

So if you can only afford a used wagon, or if you want to spend your money on something else, go ahead and have fun with whatever you get. But if (like us) you feel you're only going to get one more crack at this, then get the best you can afford. Either way, ENJOY IT (and don't forget to wave to people whose vans are MUCH cheaper or dearer than yours)!

 

Tony

 

PS Basil, we ARE the Joneses, and furthermore we can spell it!!

[Guest JudgeMental]

Ah Tony, the exorcist? BGD may be needing your services as well :-D

 

its not being used enough though. has sat on drive since we got back from month in Italy in August, till last weekend when we had a great long weekend in Brugge.

 

its just impossible, teenagers to young to leave home alone and always some activity in the way, now daughter has Saturday job as well.

 

It wil get easier I'm sure. was going to the Alps for christmas but going for a Caribbean cruise as we had to cancel last year due to a family bereavement.

[Shaun]

I'm likely to buy new because I no longer have the time or inclination to fix cars and vans like I did in my younger years. I, too, have teenagers (who will be sleeping in a tent when they accompany us in our van), and it's often their lives which take up most of our time. The thought of endless maintenance on an old van doesn't appeal at all. I've recently flogged our centuries old house in France for much the same reasons - the continuous maintenance sucks the joy out each holiday.

 

I bought a new Merc in 2000, the first new car I'd ever had. The depreciation ran to 4 to 5 grand a year, but it cost little otherwise due to the warranty. I still have that car now and depreciation is now only about a grand a year. However, due wear and tear over those seven years, means that big bills are starting to come in - the last one was £2,500.

 

Although an old van might well seem fine at the moment, that doesn't mean there's not major expense and hassle just around the corner.

 

Shaun

 

 

[V6Jim]

Ya gotta love buying a used van at a great price.

 

Take ours, for example....

 

Bessacarr E765. Bought by its previous owner in September 2006 for £45000.

 

Sold to me in May 2007 for £34400. less than 1000 miles on the clock. Utterly spotless!

 

There is no way we could justify buying new when deals like this come around. Bought on eBay, by the way.

 

WOW!

 

Jimmy

[Mike Parke]

All down to personal preferences surely. If one can afford 'new' then sobeit. We bought our first one 'new' as we liked the idea of having a 'virgin' m'home. It was our intention of retaining it 'indefinately' so depreciation was not a consideration. We kept it for 9yrs 5 mnths and was allowed £12,000:00 P.X. against another new one so we 'lost some £13,000 over the time of our ownership, but that has to be offset against the 'unpriceables' of ownering a m'home. i.e. enjoyment, 'instant' holidays, long (3 weeks only in our case I'm afraid) holidays several times a year. As Cherry & I like to 'get away' as often as possible how much would we have spent over that 9+years of ownership? More than the cost of depreciation I suggest as that works out to circa £1350:00 per annum. My 'bro-in-law' has 3 hoildays per year staying in hotels at 'exotic' locations (his expression) in the Greek Islands, Malta, Balearics ect. Personally I would rather have my m'home but each to their own as always.

 

Regards Mike

[KD]

its like asking why buy a 5 bedroomed house if you could live in a flat, why buy a 44inch hd flat screen tv when you could have a b&w portable, why upgrade your mobile phone and why some new jeans if you have worked hard and can afford it then why not have the best.

[crinklystarfish]

New or second (or more) hand isn’t the appropriate question. The only thing that matters is: is it absolutely right for you? What is and isn’t will change over time and with fluctuating aspirations. New or used is just not important.

[BGD]

crinklystarfish - 2007-10-28 8:32 PM

 

New or second (or more) hand isn’t the appropriate question. The only thing that matters is: is it absolutely right for you? What is and isn’t will change over time and with fluctuating aspirations. New or used is just not important.

 

 

 

Soz Crinkly, but I still think it is a valid comparison for the purposes of discussion.

 

I'll now bore for England on economic theory to advance my argument......

 

In life, a persons money and other assets than can be readily converted into money at any point are finite.

 

Regardless of whether a person has accumulated suffient wealth to afford to buy a brand new MH or not, the purchase of such a big-ticket item would (should!) demand careful and rational consideration of the financial cost-benefits; and also of the "opportunity cost" incurred by that purchase.

 

(Some people will be familiar with the micro-economic concept of "opportunity cost", but for those who aren't, it refers to the "utility - the pleasure - that could have been derived from spending all or a part of that money on something else other than the good or service actually purchased.)

 

As (normally at least!) rational consumers, each of us - certainly I do - should weigh up what else we could spend a largish proportion of the total outlay on a new van, if we had instead bought one say 1 or 2 or 5 years old.

 

I love our old-dog-van to bits, I paid 4,000 pounds for it.

But personally I cannot see how anyone would get ten times more (note, 10 times, not twice, or 3 times etc) more pleasure from paying 40,000 or more pounds for a brand new equivalent...............indeed I would get less, because having made the purchase choice that I did, I now have 36,000 pounds (plus interest) available out of my finite asset-pot to spend on other things that will also give me varying degrees of pleasure now and in the future.

 

If the additional utility gained by spending each extra pound on slightly better version of the same basic good/service is even marginally less than that gained from the previous pound spent, then a consumer gets a "dimishing margin rate of return" from that good.

Clearly that is true in this case, and so (as we all know) that is the reason why motorhome sales are price-sensitive.

 

Thus, so long as a particular motorhome design/spec meets your person list of Must-Haves, it is illogical to spend any more than the minimum that you need to, in order to acquire it. And each pound of the money you've saved by doing so can then provide you with a greater amount of utility by being turned into pleasure by you in other ways.

 

And thus I rest my case M'lud. B-)

 

 

 

[Guest Syd]

Hi BGD

I have to congratulate you on totally bamboozleing me into believing that you have got a well presented case there.

 

As one of the most easilly fooled people on here,

Your honor I agree.

 

Of course on the other hand, if anyone else knows better !!!

 

[crinklystarfish]

Bruce

Only true if you accept the premise that this nebulous and arbitrary notion of utility is a priori. And I don’t, and it isn’t.

Economic theory is a restrictive way through which to view the world. 

Therefore, the cost is, in reality, just one more factor to weigh in the ‘Is it right for you’ question.

[LordThornber]

BGD

 

But personally I cannot see how anyone would get ten times more (note, 10 times, not twice, or 3 times etc) more pleasure from paying 40,000 or more pounds for a brand new equivalent...............indeed I would get less,

 

 

BGD, let me show you our example of "ten times more pleasure" Many moons ago we paid 2K for a 2nd hand VW Westfalia, purely to see if it was for us as they say. Well it wasn't for us (the van, not the motorhoming), because we wanted (and could afford), the "ten times more" factor. Better lighting, bathroom, etc, etc, etc. Yes easily ten times more was achieved by spending 20K on a new Swift. I don't think for a second I've blown your argument into the water but I wanted, and hope I have, redressed the balance a little.

 

Martyn