Hughmer Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 My 7 year old original MB motor battery has just given up the ghost and while looking for replacement prices I spotted a reference to "sulphating" being the most common cause of failure. I haven't delved much deeper, save to say that a Sweedish company http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/pdf/CTEKbrochure.pdf and a Norwegian company http://www.europulse.com/contacts/home.htm both claim that occasional high voltage pulsing of lead acid batteries may prevent sulphating. Does anybody have experience of this type of product? Any thoughts on it's efficacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsandywhite Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 B-) This link will give you all the inforrmation you may need:- http://p198.ezboard.com/NEWBIES-START-HERE/fleadacidbatterydesulfationfrm8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughmer Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Thanks John Actually this site offers a very full description of how sulphating occurs and there are links to techie sites which describe "battery pulsers". These are devices that live permanently attached to the battery. As far as i understand it they convert normal 14.4 volt charging voltage to a series of high frequency high voltage pulses which cause lead suphate crystals to be broken down and reabsorbed into the plates and acid. The theory sounds good. But these devices are not the same as the chargers that I mentioned in my first post so I wonder if anyone has actual experience of either the pulse chargers from Scandinavia or the permanently attached battery pulsers. I would be very grateful if in this thread we could avoid a FULL description of how suphating occurs and the technical wizardry of how to reverse the process. It's covered very well in the link that johnsandywhite gave. What I'd really like to know .... has anyone got a pulse charger or a battery pulser and does/did it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Hello Hugh I use an Optimate which uses this type of technology for motorcycle batteries and I have recovered one using this. However I would be very careful using one on a connected battery on a vehicle that has ECU's as it is common knowledge that the ECU's do not like overvoltage situations or sudden flash voltages, hence why there is strict guidance on removal and replacement of battery terminals to avoid sparks. Also why some new cars forbid the use of 'jump leads'. Incidently Lidle are doing a copy version of the CTec at a much reduced price on 1st November. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I tested a pulsing unit that claimed to be able to revive tired batteries. I tried it on three different batteries in vaying states of ill health for a month on each battery and on all three in the end there was no measurable improvement in capacity or performance. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughmer Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Thanks gentlemen. that's what I needed to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 However I would be very careful using one on a connected battery on a vehicle that has ECU's as it is common knowledge that the ECU's do not like overvoltage situations or sudden flash voltages, hence why there is strict guidance on removal and replacement of battery terminals to avoid sparks. Also why some new cars forbid the use of 'jump leads'. Hi, The above is not really true. It is what is generally thought and believed, but the ECU can actually cope very well with over voltage and all sorts of positive and negative voltage spikes. The reason jump leads shoud not be used is because when you start using jump leads the voltage can drop below that you would normally have when starting from a good battery. Also if using your vehicle to jump start another you can get a voltage drop, which could be below 6 volts, when the engine ecu is not expecting it. As far as disconnecting/connecting the battery terminals go, if you have multiple connects and disconnects it is the repeated interruption to voltage supply that can confuse the ECU while it is resetting and going through an initialisation routine. The sparking is really irrelevant as far as any high voltage spikes are concerned and is more just a danger gasses from the battery might ignite. With respect to the pulsing chargers, they will not present a problem to the vehicle electronics as the pulse is only up to 14.8 volts max. It will cope with short pulses up to 80 volts easily, and indeed 200 volts of very short duration. Do they make a difference to sulphation, no one really knows. On the bench and in laboratory tests, yes they do. But in a vehicle which has a lot of other factors which destroy a battery, vibration, high charge rates, high discharge rates, left with low charge, temperature effects etc the benefit seems very much outweighed. Best thing is never leave a battery sitting below 12.5 volts terminal voltage. 7 years for a battery in a Motorhome, probably left standing for long periods is very good and so really there is not a problem to be fixed. Re Daves findings on reviving batteries. Almost impossible to do. Once sulphation occurs in modern batteries and sulphated lead, or even good lead falls of the plates to the bottom of the battery there is no way of recovering it. Tests on the bench will show these pulse chargers work, but that is because they test without vibration and temperature changes that will knock the suphated lead of the plates so there is a chance of recovering it. Hence the claim "may reduce Sulphation". Re the Lidle charger, it's not a bad unit, it does not atually pulse the charge voltage during the main charge, it pulses it when the battery is below about 10 volts to bring it back up to 'normal' voltage and then charges with a constant current and then goes into a 3rd stage of trickle charging. Just my opinion and verbal rattling on, take what you will out of my penny's worth. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Sorry Brambles but I know to my cost when overvoltage blew three ECU's on my Jaguar 'toy' costing nearly £1000 of replacement parts caused by an overvoltage from a continuous charger that raised the system voltage. The Body ECU the Security ECU and the seat/mirror/steering column Ecu's are in continuous operation and were affected by this. Since then I have onlyconnected the same charger to a disconnected battery and have had no further problem, there was no comeback on Jaguar as it is quite clearly stated in the owners handbook that no chargers should be used whilst the battery is connected to the vehicle and no jump leads should be used as it can cause ECU failure. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Dave Newell - 2007-10-30 3:23 PM I tested a pulsing unit that claimed to be able to revive tired batteries. I tried it on three different batteries in vaying states of ill health for a month on each battery and on all three in the end there was no measurable improvement in capacity or performance. D. In the old days one used to be able to partly revive an iffy battery by draining out the acid and then shaking and rinsing fresh water around in the cells several times to remove some of the crud at the bottom of the cells before refilling with either new or recycled acid and distilled water. It's a messy job and usually resulted in acid damaged clothes and these days our relative affluence means it is easier to just go and buy a new battery - which is often less expensive than buying a fancy charger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Basil - 2007-10-31 1:29 PM Sorry Brambles but I know to my cost when overvoltage blew three ECU's on my Jaguar 'toy' costing nearly £1000 of replacement parts caused by an overvoltage from a continuous charger that raised the system voltage. The Body ECU the Security ECU and the seat/mirror/steering column Ecu's are in continuous operation and were affected by this. Since then I have onlyconnected the same charger to a disconnected battery and have had no further problem, there was no comeback on Jaguar as it is quite clearly stated in the owners handbook that no chargers should be used whilst the battery is connected to the vehicle and no jump leads should be used as it can cause ECU failure. Bas Hi Basil, Overvoltage from a continuous charger is not the same as the voltage from a charger designed to pulse the battery, It is completey different and I would recommend no charger that can give a continuous voltage over 14.8 volts be used. Boost Chargers and Starting type chargers should NEVER be used on vehicles with electronic systems. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 It would take a braver man than me to take a chance with any of my vehicles ECUs - I would far sooner just go and buy a new battery when needed, follow the instructions when fitting it, and steer well clear of any artificial charging regimes however well intentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Brambles - 2007-10-31 2:30 PM Hi Basil, Overvoltage from a continuous charger is not the same as the voltage from a charger designed to pulse the battery, It is completey different and I would recommend no charger that can give a continuous voltage over 14.8 volts be used. Boost Chargers and Starting type chargers should NEVER be used on vehicles with electronic systems. Jon I was refering to overvoltage from a pulse charger not from a normal charger. (OptimateIIIsp this is a six stage desulphating charger) Jaguar stated after the incident that desulphating chargers such as this should not be used whilst the battery is connected to the vehicle. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well, it just goes to show, they are not safe then on some vehicles and as someone mentioned, why take the risk. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Just looked it up, The Optimate III SP is for motorbikes and batteries up to 28Ah and not for cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Found this.... OptiMate, its recovery mode, BMW Gel batteries, and incorrect suggestions that the up to 20V delivered by the OptiMate in recovery mode ro restore very flat batteries can damage vehicle electronics. Yuasa Battery (Inc., USA) explicitly state that to recover a deep-discharged battery a voltage of up to 25V is required). Some quarters have made insinuations that OptiMate's high voltage recovery mode could cause damage to a vehicle's electronics).... we gather this is based on some statement emanating from BMW Motorcycles and/ or Panasonic who apparently will not accept any claims for warranties if the user has used a charger with high voltage. This warranty policy is a general policy, not anything specific to the OptiMate, and we know that thousands of BMW riders have OptiMates, yet we have never received any claims of damaged batteries or vehicle electronics. In situations where the user suspects that the battery is deep-discharged, or where OptiMate indicates a deepdischarged battery, we recommend that the battery is removed from the motorcycle. There are 2 main reasons for this: 1 - OptiMate will not engage its recovery mode if it senses vehicle circuitry or if an alarm (or other accessory) is fitted which has a high current requirement. 2 - a battery which appears to be deep-discharged may actually have an internal defect – as the defect is an unknown quantity it is common sense to remove the battery from the bike as defective batteries are unpredictable. An (extremely rare) example is a battery with a hairline crack in a connecting plate which can in rare circumstances produce internal sparks – it is important to note that this is not in any way due to OptiMate’s recovery charge – this can equally happen under load from the bike (e.g. starter), or when being charged by the bike’s alternator or by an unregulated charger. The following text explains why OptiMate’s recovery circuit will not damage the bike’s electrical components – In order for the recovery mode to engage, the OptiMate circuit needs to "see" a high resistance across the battery terminals. In the case where the battery remains connected to the vehicle's wiring system, any battery-supported accessories will automatically lower the overall resistance (battery plus accessories) that the OptiMate is going to "read" when it tries to pass the limited maximum 200 mA to the battery. Therefore the OptiMate will not read the battery resistance as being high enough to indicate deep discharge / sulphation and therefore will not engage the recovery mode. Normally a motorcycle's electronics would be disconnected from the battery when the key switch is in the off position, otherwise the battery would be discharged quite soon. In the case of a deep-discharged or sulphated battery, with the key switch off & no high-current draining accessory (e.g. alarm) connected, the recovery mode would engage. However, the moment the key switch is turned to "on", (in other words thereby bringing the vehicle electronics into the circuit and thereby exposing them to the supposed risk of damage), the overall resistance across the battery drops and the OptiMate will immediately go to normal charge mode, thereby automatically anulling any risk. Technically this occurs because the vehicle electronics will require a support current exceeding 200mA whereas the OptiMate in recovery mode cannot deliver more than 200mA. Any good alarm system, and CERTAINLY any costly electronics component such as the ECU will incorporate protection against voltage spikes that could be caused by a battery or regulator / alternator malfunction. OptiMate will sense such protection and disable the recovery mode. Finally, since OptiMate was introduced (1995) TecMate has yet to receive a claim from any user or manufacturer of damage to vehicle electronics. .... Looks like what has happened is the charger has put 20volts or so into your jaguar, if it has that could certainly cause probems if it was for a sustainmed perid of time and noit just short pulses. However it would require that the battery was fairly u.s. to start with. But then hence the reason you were putting the charger on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Sorry, I am rambling away on a roll here. I think you havea valid claim against optimate (or tecmate). Now I know it says is for up to 28Ah (or 32Ah on some literature) but a charger of this nature is naturally going to be use to try and charge a vehicle battery as in your case. Looking at the unit and so on, it is not completely clear and I think it is something they should have considered. from what I have gleamed it is certainly worth a try, especially the amount it cost you to replace the ECUs. I am finsing this interessting because it is certainly something that should not have happend in my view having been involved in vehicle Electronic system design all my working life. I can only assume the charger did not detect the electronic sytems were drawing some current because of the increased capacity off the battery. They do claim it to be completey safe for all vehicle eletronic sytems and all battey types.... from that any user is going to think - fine, no problem lets charge my vehicle battery with it. I shall stop rambling now. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Hi Brambles, Yes you are right that they are promoted for use on motorcycle batteries but the suggestion is that they are safe for topping up, on a permanantly connected basis on car batteries as well, Carcoon actualy market them with their own brand name on for their own system. I have and still use an earlier incarnation on the motorhome and that has never given any problem, however it does not have desulphation capability. I also have found out from the net that the Optimate can give bursts up to 38v so yes I do believe that is what happened. With regard to any claim, as Jaguars information clearly states chargers with desulphation technology must not be used with the battery connected and that the Optimate is not specifically marketed at car users I was not prepared to waste any more money persuing a claim that would probably go nowhere and cost far more than it was worth. I also wonder if that is why they have never had a complaint or claim since they introduced. Also I still believe that it is an excellant device and still use it. To go back to my origional post in reference to the origional post, I have not said at any time that people should not use them only 'I would be wary about using one with the battery connected to the vehicle if said vehicle has ECU's' and that statement I would stand by for any charger that uses desulphation programmes. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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