The Euro

[BGD]

carioca - 2007-11-04 10:48 PM

 

BGD - 2007-11-04 9:43 PM

 

carioca - 2007-11-04 3:13 PM

 

BGD - 2007-11-04 11:03 AM

 

I noticed yesterday on a news snippet that Slovakia is now also changing to the Euro on 1st Jan 2009 (I think it said 2009, may have been 2008?).

 

The Luddites on that little island just north of France are drifting ever further away from the rest of Europe.

And becoming more and more isolated is frankly just economic suicide when the EU is now the 2nd largest economy in the world.

 

If you don't wake up and smell the coffee, I fear that things are gonna get a LOT worse in the decade to come as the rest of the EU gradually turns its back on the small island.

 

As one who has lived in a Euro country for the past 5 years now - it's fantastic to go all over mainland Europe with a single currency. I don't give a damn about whose head is pictured on the notes and coins - it just works perfectly across the whole EU zone.

 

Seems to me that the only thing worse than being in the Euro, is not being in it.

 

BGD

that's your opinion & your entitled to it. if you want to go live & obide by the rules of a "euro country" then fine you go do that but dont tell me what we should do in the country that i was born & live in

 

 

there you go my small rant over

 

 

 

Sorry Carioca - I must be missing something....where in my post did I tell you what you should do?

 

By all means express you opinion, that's exactly what this forum is for, but please don't simply misinterpret mine rather than posting your own.

 

If you have some views of your own on this subject, then do please post them to help the debate along.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

bruce by stating that "Seems to me that the only thing worse than being in the Euro, is not being in it."

is this not implying that we should be using the euro in britain? if not then i'm wrong but if it is then i'm right

 

That was, and remains MY personal opinion. Notice the part where I wrote "Seems to me". What I suggest that indicates to most readers would be that it seems to me, the writer. That is, that it appears....ie it is an opinion that I hold.

 

By no stretch of rational interpretation could it be taken as a direct instruction to you, an instruction to tell you what you personally have to do.

I simply don't understand whatsoever how you could have concluded anything other than what I was writing was my personal opinion from those words.

 

Incidentally, you say that it is Britain that still uses the pound sterling.

I think you are mistaken on that too. I believe it is in fact the United Kingdom.

 

 

 

I would repeat my invitation to you to please make any positive contribution that you may wish in this thread to the pros and cons of the UK joining/remaining outside of the Eurozone.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Euro: great.  Let's have it.  Yes, it is flawed, and yes, the economic policies of the member countries need to be brought together.  However, the Euro is a political initiative, not an economic one.  If the political will survives, the Euro probably will too.  Without the Euro those economic harmonisations won't happen, leaving the member states of the EC competing over who has the lowest taxes.  At worst, if the strains of the inequalities become too severe some members may drop out, but my bet is it will survive, at least within a reasonably economically harmonised core group.

Leave the EC?  Madness.  I'm convinced things would be far worse for the average person if we left.

I can't understand the charge that all we joined was a Common Market, and not something far bigger.  I voted to join, in the knowledge that I was voting for a much more deeply integrated Europe.  It cannot work as just a trading federation, the desire to make profits will always ensure someone cheats to gain advantage.  The cheats must be policed, the policing requires institutions, the institutions have to be accepted by all states, and therefore have to be agreed by all states, and there you are. 

The EC is a work in progress, it was always going to be so, and it will remain so indefinately.  All countries are.  Is Britain the same now as it was 50 years ago?  Is it now finished: all done and dusted?  Of course not.  We need to stop whinging that we didn't understand what we joined, which I think makes us look rather silly, and just get on with making it work better.

Immigration/asylum.  You do have to be a bit blind, or remarkably insular, if you think only Britain has these problems.  Most of the more economically developed European countries have problems with immigration, asylum seekers, economic migrants from the new Europe etc. etc.  Elements of our press try to convince us that it is only us, and unfortunately too many of the gullible believe what they read.  Travel around Europe, but get into the less prosperous parts of the towns and cities you visit, and then look at the faces around you and listen to the language they are speaking.  Most won't be from ethnic European stock, or speaking the language of the host state.  They may not come from the same parts of the world as those who come to the UK, but the "immigration problem" is there just the same.  The French moan that the Poles and the Chinese are stealing their jobs.  Familiar?  There are North and central Africans in France and Spain, Balkans and Africans in Italy, Turks in Germany, Poles, Latvians, Lithunanians, Estonians, Czechs, Slovacs, Slovenians, Romanians, Hungarians and Bulgarians all over, in varying degree.  The reason is that, despite all the Doubting Thomas', Europe does work, it does have high living standards, it is a magnet for them, and it can employ them, and they - for the most part - come to work.  Why else would they come?  For the welfare?  If you believe that, you don't see, or can't understand, what is staring you in the face.  Is the EC perfect?  Of course not - is the UK perfect?

In time the borders, which in any case have only existed for a bit over 100 years, will fade in significance.  Language will adapt and change.  The idea of separate currencies will seem madness.  The biggest problem I can foresee for the future is the present "fashion" for states to break into smaller units.  The UK into Wales, Scotland and England, Belgium into Wallonia and a Flemish state, Catalonia, the Basque country, and possibly Galicia, from Spain, Brittany from France, the Tyrol from Italy.  All these smaller states - if they come about - will be disappointed to discover that whereas they may gain political independence, they will lack the negotiating power to exercise it.

However, thanks for the news about Malta and Cyprus, Don.  Sorry about the "off topic" rant.  Hope you are well.

[carioca]

BGD - 2007-11-04 11:09 PM

 

carioca - 2007-11-04 10:48 PM

 

BGD - 2007-11-04 9:43 PM

 

carioca - 2007-11-04 3:13 PM

 

BGD - 2007-11-04 11:03 AM

 

I noticed yesterday on a news snippet that Slovakia is now also changing to the Euro on 1st Jan 2009 (I think it said 2009, may have been 2008?).

 

The Luddites on that little island just north of France are drifting ever further away from the rest of Europe.

And becoming more and more isolated is frankly just economic suicide when the EU is now the 2nd largest economy in the world.

 

If you don't wake up and smell the coffee, I fear that things are gonna get a LOT worse in the decade to come as the rest of the EU gradually turns its back on the small island.

 

As one who has lived in a Euro country for the past 5 years now - it's fantastic to go all over mainland Europe with a single currency. I don't give a damn about whose head is pictured on the notes and coins - it just works perfectly across the whole EU zone.

 

Seems to me that the only thing worse than being in the Euro, is not being in it.

 

BGD

that's your opinion & your entitled to it. if you want to go live & obide by the rules of a "euro country" then fine you go do that but dont tell me what we should do in the country that i was born & live in

 

 

there you go my small rant over

 

 

 

Sorry Carioca - I must be missing something....where in my post did I tell you what you should do?

 

By all means express you opinion, that's exactly what this forum is for, but please don't simply misinterpret mine rather than posting your own.

 

If you have some views of your own on this subject, then do please post them to help the debate along.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

bruce by stating that "Seems to me that the only thing worse than being in the Euro, is not being in it."

is this not implying that we should be using the euro in britain? if not then i'm wrong but if it is then i'm right

 

That was, and remains MY personal opinion. Notice the part where I wrote "Seems to me". What I suggest that indicates to most readers would be that it seems to me, the writer. That is, that it appears....ie it is an opinion that I hold.

 

By no stretch of rational interpretation could it be taken as a direct instruction to you, an instruction to tell you what you personally have to do.

I simply don't understand whatsoever how you could have concluded anything other than what I was writing was my personal opinion from those words.

 

Incidentally, you say that it is Britain that still uses the pound sterling.

I think you are mistaken on that too. I believe it is in fact the United Kingdom.

 

 

 

I would repeat my invitation to you to please make any positive contribution that you may wish in this thread to the pros and cons of the UK joining/remaining outside of the Eurozone.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

bruce at no time did i say this "you say that it is Britain that still uses the pound sterling. I think you are mistaken on that too. I believe it is in fact the United Kingdom". you are correct in your belief that it is used by the whole of the united kingdom.

as for reasons not to go to the euro my own personal experiances tell me that going to france has certinally got more expensive since it joined the euro, how much more i personally dont know i just know it cost me quite a lot more for the same type of holiday than it used to. price are marked in euros & francs you used to get about 10 francs to the pound if you work the prices out now you dont get 10 francs to the pound. i personally dont remember much about going decimel in this country but i do remember the prices on a lot of sweets went from say 6d to 6p shop keeper just change the price on the boxes with black felt pen.

i work for a multi national company that was recently bought out by a french company & i am on a european works council and on talkin to german, dutch,belgium & french workers they say we should resist as it is not a good thing as everything is more expensive. the french do seem very concerned about polish worker doing ther jobs more cheaply

 

i hope this is taken as positive contribution & not ment to offend

regards adie

 

[twooks]

well said Brian - as ever.

re decimalisation price increases,

prices went from 19/11 to 99p - when strictly it should've been 98.3 or thereabouts, but apart from anything else there is this strange psycho logic which states that 19/11 or 99p is less than a pound.

some unscrupuloius traders did try and hoick up prices.

BUT - the biggest price change was oil, petrol went from something like 3/9 a gallon to 50p in about a year -

not because of decimalisation - but because of the oil crisis

which is something most memories seem to forget when they talk about price rises at that time.

 

We can't stand alone, we're either going to be formally induced into the USA as the 52nd state [and that's if we're lucky, be like Puerto Rico, or be part of Europe. No contest for me - apart from anything else th US had - politically - shat on us from a great height for many years.

[no I'm not anti american - just reasonably politically aware]

 

B-)

[Mel E]

Clive & BGD,

 

The real answer has nothing to do with exchange rate charges. If the rate of the Pound didn't move against that of the Euro, then we'd have effectively joined it, wouldn't we - or be pegged against it which amounts to the same thing.

 

The days of fixed exchange rates but differing economic and taxation policies are over. We proved long ago that they don't work (remember 'the pound in your pocket'?)

 

Mel E

====

[Guest Tracker]

colin - 2007-11-04 10:42 PM

 

As I understand it L.S.D. our old currency was the euro of its day when it was first introduced by the romans, so it appears we have been there before. Joining the Euro has its attractions, but as we have had over a million economic migrants coming to this country over the last few years we must be doing something right with the economy.

 

Yes we are getting it right - at least as far as immigrants are concerned because they seem to get a far better deal in the UK than elsewhere in Europe - no small wonder they like coming here is it?

 

Arrive penniless and smiling and wave to all the Brits going the other way and taking with them their life's savings - also smiling!

 

I fail to see how it can be good for the long term interests of our country to see such an influx of wealth challenged incomers and and such an out flowing of experience, skills and cash and investments?

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2007-11-05 11:24 AM  Yes we are getting it right - at least as far as immigrants are concerned because they seem to get a far better deal in the UK than elsewhere in Europe - no small wonder they like coming here is it? Arrive penniless and smiling and wave to all the Brits going the other way and taking with them their life's savings - also smiling! I fail to see how it can be good for the long term interests of our country to see such an influx of wealth challenged incomers and and such an out flowing of experience, skills and cash and investments?

Rich

Not wishing to be rude, but where do you get this stuff?  What evidence do you have that immigrants get a better deal here than elsewhere?  How do you know immigrants arrive penniless?  The reason they benefit our economy is by working for low pay.  We may not like it, but it keeps wage bills and prices down, so the rest of us benefit by having more to spend on other things which, ultimately, benefits the makers of those other things.

[Mike Parke]

Only a few, Brian, surely. The majority know that 'we' will assist them thro' social funding, housing and other benefits as our 'social policies' are, argueably, the most generous of all the E.U. member nations.

 

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

But I repeat, where does this stuff come from?  Who says our social policies are more generous than anyone elses, and on what evidence?  More generous than Sweden, for example? 

Who says we have more immigrants/asylum seekers/economic migrants, than other European countries, and on what basis?  How do they measure?  If our government can't tell, because it hasn't been counting, who are these other people who know not only how many of each we have, but how many there are in every other European state as well? 

Does no-one smell a political rat with an axe to grind in all these pesudo-statistics?  Is it not precsiely because those who spread these rumours know there are no facts, that they go on spreading the rumours?  Safe scare story, with no embarrasing facts to trip them up?

[Mike Parke]

Two page spead in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph and another in the Daily Mail sometime last week. Yes, I know that you cannot believe all you read in the newspapers but personally I am inclined to have more faith in some newspapers than I have in H.M.G.!!

 

Regards Mike

[twooks]

why???

 

the media are interested in selling papers - and will print anything that sells -

 

HMG are interested in staying in power - and will say anything to achieve that

 

I would suggest that neither of the two papers you quote could claim to have no vested interest / hidden agenda on this issue.

 

If I ever find figures produced fairly and published by someone with no axe to grind - then I'll believe them - perhaps santa could drop them down the chimney when he flies overhead in a few weeks

 

B-)

[Mike Parke]

Slough Town Council are bitterly upset as H.M.G. say they have some 10,000 less immigrants than Slough L.A. say they have and are, therefore, vastly underfunded to meet the extra costs which the British taxpayer has to fund thro' cuncil taxes. Recent Dept. Employment figures show that circa 500,000 U.K. jobs taken by immigrants and 27,000 extra U.K persons therefore receiving 'benefits'.

Other L.A.s are in same postition with reduced funding in relation to residents.

 

Regards Mike

[bigal55]

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-05 3:28 PM

Tracker - 2007-11-05 11:24 AM Yes we are getting it right - at least as far as immigrants are concerned because they seem to get a far better deal in the UK than elsewhere in Europe - no small wonder they like coming here is it? Arrive penniless and smiling and wave to all the Brits going the other way and taking with them their life's savings - also smiling! I fail to see how it can be good for the long term interests of our country to see such an influx of wealth challenged incomers and and such an out flowing of experience, skills and cash and investments?

Rich

Not wishing to be rude, but where do you get this stuff? What evidence do you have that immigrants get a better deal here than elsewhere? How do you know immigrants arrive penniless? The reason they benefit our economy is by working for low pay. We may not like it, but it keeps wage bills and prices down, so the rest of us benefit by having more to spend on other things which, ultimately, benefits the makers of those other things.

how does keeping wages down benefit any body but the fatcat employers, how anybody lives on the minimum wage in this country i do not know, the only way the the poles etc do it is by living 3/4 to a room in conditions that should not be allowed in this country, i see it daily

[enodreven]

Now Don See what you have done and I bet you thought it was quiet innocent ?? LoL

 

Don Madge - 2007-11-01 7:33 PM

 

Cyprus and Malta are adopting the Euro as their currency on the 1st January 2008.

 

Don

[Don Madge]

enodreven - 2007-11-05 7:38 PM

 

Now Don See what you have done and I bet you thought it was quiet innocent ?? LoL

 

Don Madge - 2007-11-01 7:33 PM

 

Cyprus and Malta are adopting the Euro as their currency on the 1st January 2008.

 

Don

 

Brian,

 

If you stood three shovels against a wall and said take your pick this bunch on here would argue over it for months. :-D :-D

 

Don

[twooks]

Don Madge - 2007-11-05 7:46 PM

 

enodreven - 2007-11-05 7:38 PM

 

Now Don See what you have done and I bet you thought it was quiet innocent ?? LoL

 

Don Madge - 2007-11-01 7:33 PM

 

Cyprus and Malta are adopting the Euro as their currency on the 1st January 2008.

 

Don

 

Brian,

 

If you stood three shovels against a wall and said take your pick this bunch on here would argue over it for months. :-D :-D

 

Don

 

 

be awfully confused a well :D :D :D

 

B-)

[Basil]

Don Madge - 2007-11-05 7:46 PM

Brian,

 

If you stood three shovels against a wall and said take your pick this bunch on here would argue over it for months. :-D :-D

 

Don

 

But of course they would, and quite rightly, because if you only stood three SHOVELS against the wall there wouldn't be a PICK to choose would there? :-D :-D :-D

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

bigal55 - 2007-11-05 7:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-05 3:28 PM

Rich

...... We may not like it, but it keeps wage bills and prices down, so the rest of us benefit by having more to spend on other things which, ultimately, benefits the makers of those other things.

how does keeping wages down benefit any body but the fatcat employers, how anybody lives on the minimum wage in this country i do not know, the only way the the poles etc do it is by living 3/4 to a room in conditions that should not be allowed in this country, i see it daily

Alan

I did say above we may not like it!  It is not very fair in the way it works, but it does seem it works by keeping prices low.  Remember inflation?  That was what happened when people kept getting higher and higher pay.  That didn't benefit anyone, except possibly those with large mortages and frequent promotions, who probably did the best out of it.  People on fixed incomes did the worst.  Now the immigrants do the worst, living 3/4 to a room on low pay, and the rest of us have lower prices.  Funny stuff this economics, innit? 

OH, don't forget to thank the poor old Poles for their hard work on our behalf when next you pass them in the street, will you?  :-)

[bigal55]

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-06 5:27 PM

bigal55 - 2007-11-05 7:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2007-11-05 3:28 PM

Rich

...... We may not like it, but it keeps wage bills and prices down, so the rest of us benefit by having more to spend on other things which, ultimately, benefits the makers of those other things.

how does keeping wages down benefit any body but the fatcat employers, how anybody lives on the minimum wage in this country i do not know, the only way the the poles etc do it is by living 3/4 to a room in conditions that should not be allowed in this country, i see it daily

Alan

I did say above we may not like it! It is not very fair in the way it works, but it does seem it works by keeping prices low. Remember inflation? That was what happened when people kept getting higher and higher pay. That didn't benefit anyone, except possibly those with large mortages and frequent promotions, who probably did the best out of it. People on fixed incomes did the worst. Now the immigrants do the worst, living 3/4 to a room on low pay, and the rest of us have lower prices. Funny stuff this economics, innit?

OH, don't forget to thank the poor old Poles for their hard work on our behalf when next you pass them in the street, will you? :-)

hi brian i see the living conditions ist hand as i do the maintenance on 8 properties that used to be hotels and now pack in mainly polish young men and yes they are hardworking and are nice guys. my real beef is that is that the abundant supply of labour keeps the minimum wage at a minimum and keeps people at subsistence level while companies like mr tesco make billions. cheap food yes please we all want that but what happens when these young men want to settle down, they will need more money i think the present policy is shortermism ,but i suppose that will be when turkey will be allowed to join the e.u.cynical you bet, grabber gordons favourite phase is "good for britain good for the economy" what about the people, we seem to be following the american economic model, survival of the fittest,and have a growing underclass who aint bovverved. yes i do remember inflation, under maggie i was paying 18% on a business loan but now i couldn,t buy the property is this an improvement, still mosn,t grumble i,m a baby boomer (lol)

[flicka]

[Don

 

Brian,

 

If you stood three shovels against a wall and said take your pick this bunch on here would argue over it for months. :-D :-D

 

Don

 

But Don how can I take my PICK, when they are all Shovels ?

 

Apologies I was beaten too it.

[Charlieme]

I read all the above comments with the greatest of interest, also the info on 'living in France' on another thread.

 

And, I'm pleased to add that I allow it all to pass over me with blissful ignorance.

 

I said some time ago on another channel that the system is 'out to get you' whatever one does or thinks.

 

I got some rude replies but after very many years survivng very well in bilissful ignorance it has truly enhanced my years of survival.

 

Keep writing I love it all, sitting in the M/H with not a care in the world.

 

The Frogs, the Euro, the Pound, R/H or L/H, the Tax Man, the Inheritance Laws, I care not, put another record on the turntable Daisy.

[Poppy]

O.K which is it.? Do all the immigrants come to sponge off our welfare benefits or to take all our jobs? Please make up your minds.Also who is employing them all? Fellow immigrants or the British? Remember the Daily Mail didn't want the jews fleeing from persecution in Germany admitted either.I guess they were another bunch wanting nothing but our jobs,welfare benefits etc. and didn't REALLY need to leave Germany asap.Its interesting. A few weeks ago this wasn't about colour or immigrants it was about ILLEGAL asylum seekers which was all of them as I never saw mention of the legal ones. NOW is immigrants, before long it will be wogs and coloureds. I can remember seeing signs in windows advertizing bedsits with the words No dogs, kids or coloureds.My husband is a first generation (coloured) immigrant. One of those Indians that can't speak proper English and according to the Daily Mail at the time were wrecking the NHS. Except they weren'tthey propeed it up. They worked in all the inner cities andplaces where the nice white middle classes didn't want to go.

[Poppy]

And the fighter pilot Poles who died in great numbers defending Britain during the second world war.

[Charlieme]

Not quite a M/H subject but the crux of the matter is that business runs the world and at the top of that are the energy and mineral producers.

 

There 'aint nothing anyone can do about it. If you desire more then start your own business. Enjoy your M/H, the world will carry on without us.

 

No more comments

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

I have used various Polish workers over a 5 year period refurbishing my house. No problems accept the occasional "lost in translation" episode. They have all been enthusiastic, educated and hard working. Unlike our own feckless youth, who by comparison are spoilt and lazy, and know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

As for the little Englanders amongst us complaining about immigrants, may I suggest that they be more concerned with our home-grown underclass that are a real drain on resources and a threat to the future stability and growth of this country.