donna miller Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 there is a guy on ebay selling adapters to fill standard propane bottles, any thoughts http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lpg-Propane-bottle-filling-adapter-Not-a-Pump-hymer_W0QQitemZ320180289960QQihZ011QQcategoryZ36631QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 My thoughts are they are potentially lethal in unskilled hands and I wouldn't want to be around someone using one and possibly overfilling the cylinder or parked up next to someone who has filled. Just my opinion as always. Certainly bad practise and could be the start of getting the filling of all refillables on forcourts banned. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I totally agree with Bas, the refilling of cylinders not designed to be refilled, i.e. having an automatic 80% fill cutoff valve, is potentially very dangerous. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I recall seeing (some years ago) this type of adapter being displayed on the MTH Gas Systems (MTHGS) stand at a Shepton Mallet show. I think it was made by the Polish company STAKO who are probably best known for manufacturing refillable LPG tanks and cylinders. I did follow it with MTHGS and I'm pretty sure that the price then was around £30. I was told that its original function was not to fill exchang-only LPG cylinders, but that it could be employed to do this. There are 2 potential disincentives to using this type of adapter: 1. Illegality - whatever nationality/make/model of exchangeable LPG bottle you have, and however you have obtained it (hire contract with gas-supplier, car-boot sale, recycling centre, etc.), that bottle will always remain the property of the gas-supplying company and that company will always forbid 'user refilling'. 2. Difficulty in refilling reliably to 80% capacity - a standard steel LPG bottle has no facility for indicating how much liquid gas is inside. A gas-supplying company will fill bottles by weight, but even if you employ similar methodology yourself to calculate the internal gas amount, matters will be complicated when the LPG being put in the bottle is a mix of gases (French autogas for example). If I were intending to employ the adapter being offered on e-bay, I'd err heavily on the side of caution and refill to, say, 70% capacity. (It does need emphasising that, if an LPG cylinder has no integrated cut-off valve, an autogas pump will totally fill that cylinder with liquid gas unless the person carrying out the refilling intervenes.) When it comes to refillable gas reservoirs on motorhomes, my Safety/Convenience League Table would be: A. Refillable tanks/bottles with 80% cut-off valves and mechanical level gauges. (Belt and braces - even if the valve fails the gauge will reliably warn you of overfilling.) B. Refillable bottles with 80% cut-off valves. (OK as long as the valve is working properly.) C. Translucent 'plastic' refillable bottles. (No cut-off valve, so need care during refilling and quite easy to overfill. But at least it is possible to ascertain how much LPG is in the bottle before and after refilling.) D. Exchange-only steel bottle + adapter. (Similar refilling/overfilling negatives as C, plus difficulty detecting accurately the amount of LPG in the bottle before and after refilling, plus the illegality aspect.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Derek, Fine, but please delete option C. Refilling these see-through GRP cylinders which do NOT have an automatic 80% fill cut-off is potentially lethal. If you have refilled a cylinder at a fuel station (I have an MTH Stako refillable 11 Kg Cylinder), you will know that: 1. The trigger mechanism is extremely difficult to apply sensitively - it has a strong spring and is either full on or full off. 2. In terms of the flow rate from the pump, the bottles sold as GRP refillable are extremely small (about 6 KGs is standard, though I have seen some 10 Kgs). If one-third empty, say, they fill in almost a flash - certainly no more than a matter of a few seconds. 3. Thus, switching off manually at exactly the right moment is incredibly difficult. 4. The result of an overfill is not just gas exhausting all over the forecourt, but excess gas in the cylinder - how do you get rid of this safely - and you must do so as that 20% space is essential to allow for expansion when the temperature rises, or you drive up a mountain. 5. Bear in mind that 1 volume of liquid LPG converts into about 250 volumes of gas. Still want to suggest it as an option? Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 believe it or not I aggree with almost all that has been said about refilling non refillable gas cyls. I would point out that a reason for not overfilling is so that you only draw of gas, not liquid as this could be fatal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 OK, well thanks for your input, I was a bit sceptical of the claims that it was simple to fill to 80%. My alternative plan is to have an LPG tank fitted, this will have a fixed filler point along with a gas point for the BBQ. It will also be wired so a solenoid valve closes off the supply when the ignition is on. My local LPG fitter has quoted £260 plus vat. This will be for a 45/50lt tank slung under the chassis, thus freeing up the existing locker. It's a good price I think, but I was curious about the fillers. Once again thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Interested on having gas tank fitted. The price you have seems good, what part of the country are you in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 down in south wales, I'll try to find his number and post it up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Mel E: I didn't suggest a refillable GRP cylinder as an "option", though, as this type of bottle remains available for purchase in the UK, it patently is one . Taking your points in order: 1. That's not been my experience - perhaps it's because I'm not cack-handed. 2. Seems to be predicated on Point One being true. 3. True if the refilling method being employed involves pumping in LPG until the gas-level reaches the GRP bottle's 'maximum fill' window, but that's not how you refill this type of container. First of all you confirm how much LPG remains in the bottle via the scale affixed to the bottle's exterior, then you subtract this figure from the bottle's design (80%) capacity, then you insert the appropriate number of litres of LPG. 4. This is only partially correct. Although it's certainly possible to fill a GRP bottle to 100% capacity, when that happens the LPG pump will shut off and gas will not be "exhausting all over the forecourt". Obviously, if you have overfilled beyond the 80% mark, you've got a problem and, to use the cylinder safely, some LPG will need to be tipped out of the bottle. I fully accept that such an action is environmentally unfriendly and potentially lethal. That's why every effort should be made to avoid having to do it. 5. Yes, I know that. My own GRP refillable bottle is 10 litres capacity and I've been using it successfully for over 5 years. First-hand experience has proven that this type of bottle is indeed a viable option and, as far as I'm concerned, it's clearly preferable to using a steel exchange-only bottle for refilling purposes. However, I certainly wouldn't RECOMMEND that people choose a GRP refillable bottle as the concept is inherently 'tricky', but then I wasn't making recommendations in the first place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Derek, I think, as is usually the case, that we actually agree over this one. What you actually wrote was: Derek Uzzell - 2007-11-10 8:14 AM When it comes to refillable gas reservoirs on motorhomes, my Safety/Convenience League Table would be: Looks awfully like a recommendation to me! C. Translucent 'plastic' refillable bottles. (No cut-off valve, so need care during refilling and quite easy to overfill. But at least it is possible to ascertain how much LPG is in the bottle before and after refilling.) "Quite easy to overfill" - I agree. Incidentally, the term 'cackhanded', far from being one of abuse, simply means left-handed. It is a corruption of 'Kirk-handed' and referred originally to the Scottish Kirk clan which had such a predominance of left-handers that they built all the spiral staircases in their castle the wrong way round, so that the left handers had their sword arm free to combat attackers. And, for the record, I am neither 'cackhanded' nor 'Kirkhanded'. Have fun, Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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