Brian Kirby Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 In his thread below, entitled “Reading the small print (Recovery)”, Fred 22 raised the matter of what can be expected from motorhome recovery insurance when the driver cannot continue driving, and whether it is wise to add a spouse/partner to the motorhome insurance, merely to legalise their driving it a short distance in extremis. This got me thinking, and re-reading our insurance documents. Consequently, I made some enquiries! I have now had some answers from a “proper” insurance expert. Since the answers may be of general interest, I’ve starting a new thread. Hope you don't mind, Fred.The short answer is that if a named driver is added to your motorhome insurance policy, that driver will be assumed able, and willing, to drive the vehicle from wherever you happen to be should the policy holder become unable to drive.So, if the named driver has been added merely as an affirmation that the ‘van belongs to you both, or as a “just in case” back up - where they really wouldn’t be comfortable driving it any distance on public roads - the best advice seems to be to remove them from the policy.If you would still feel happier with a second driver who could drive your van in an emergency, then, if your passenger has car insurance in their own name, they should already be covered to drive another vehicle “with the owner’s permission”.Thus, if you have two vehicles and are the policy holder for both, it may be advantageous to insure the second vehicle in your spouse/partner’s name. However, before relying on this, the terms of the insurances must be checked and verified, especially as to the scope of cover offered, the exclusions and, where relevant, applicability to such use outside UK. So too should the validity of their driving license, especially if your van is over 3,500Kg MAM.References to a passenger who is “able to drive” or “qualified to drive”, as an exclusion to the provision of a relief driver, should only apply where they are actually insured to drive the motorhome. Thus, if they are not so insured, they should not be pressured to drive. However, if this is a particular concern for you, check with the provider.If a suitably qualified passenger is willing in principle to drive, but does not wish it automatically assumed they will do so, it should be possible in an emergency to have them added to the policy by ‘phone, with the obvious proviso regarding adjustment to the premium. Again, if this is a concern, check with your insurer.Underlying the replacement driver clause/s is that the policy holder must be genuinely unable to drive. Having a broken limb or being declared medically unfit, rather than having a heavy cold and just feeling a bit woozy. It the latter case, you would generally be expected to hole-up until fit to continue.It was stressed that such insurances are best obtained from a specialist in motorhome insurance, and that the breakdown cover is best obtained in conjunction with the vehicle insurance, and ideally also with medical insurance.It was also stressed that it is not practically possible to make blanket statements as to how breakdown insurance will be interpreted under all circumstances. This is because the range of circumstances that confront the insurers is so varied. Instances were quoted ranging from death while abroad, via what seemed most of the medical dictionary, to relatively clear cut matters such as broken bones. There is also a degree of deliberate greyness, because some people otherwise assume rights on demand, or try to dictate how the policy will operate, or simply lie. More importantly, however, because the providers need a bit of non-contractual flexibility when responding to unusually complex cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Brian Kirby - 2007-12-04 3:52 PM The short answer is that if a named driver is added to your motorhome insurance policy, that driver will be assumed able, and willing, to drive the vehicle from wherever you happen to be should the policy holder become unable to drive. Hi Brian, While I don't wish to dispute the credentials of your proper insurance expert, the best advice would perhaps be to follow that which you also briefly mentioned which is that the reader, if concerned about this issue, should consult their own insurer. I was similarly concerned about this matter earlier in the year as my wife, although a driver and named as such on my motorhome insurance would not under any circumstances feel that she has the capability to drive our vehicle on the continent should I become incapacitated for any acceptable reason. She occasionally moves the vehicle 50 metres in a ferry or traffic queue and of course needs to be insured to do so, hence her inclusion as a named driver. I contacted my insurer, Comfort Insurance, who you will be aware do specialise in cover for motorhomers and they immediately stated that this was an issue with which they were familiar from regular experience. I was assured categorically that under the terms of their insurance for sending a recovery driver in the event of my incapacity abroad, they do not automatically expect a non-competent driver (ie my wife) to drive the vehicle even though she is qualified and named as a driver on the policy. I was prepared at the time to remove her as a named driver but was assured that this would not be necessary. This may be less magnanimous on their part than it seems as the insurer might well consider the long distance continental driving of a vehicle by an incompetent (but otherwise authorised) driver to represent a high risk to them and therefore potentially be far more costly than the provision of a recovery driver. Good post covering an important issue. Nobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 Can't really comment, Steve, since I'd chosen not to reveal the source of my advice. I can only plead that my informant should have credentials identical to yours, even though the advice was different!Where a named driver would be unwilling to drive more than a (very!) few miles, or to drive abroad, I think the safest strategy must be to leave them off the policy. That way, if push comes to shove, there is no scope for argument. Either that, or the named driver does a motorhome manoeuvering course and gains the necessary confidence to take on the driving!If you were to be incapacitated abroad, but were fit to travel by road, and the named driver baulked at the task, I should think the last thing you'd want would be dispute with a recovery company over who was to pay for a relief driver. In any case, there would then be three of you, so how would that work out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 This really depends on which insurer is going to organise the handling of the claim and the recovery. The AA, for instance, will consider a recovery of the vehicle and any passengers where the driver is incapacitated by a medical condition as "A Compassionate Recovery" but they are not committed to do this and this is not written into the breakdown insurance and is dependant on the situation. They will take into account that a named driver on the Vehicle Insurance Policy may not be willing to or capable of driving long distances or in fact have a medical condition that would exclude a long driving period. This is however very wishy washy and dependant on the compassion of the Company/Staff at the recovery insurers at the time. The advice given by most of the Motoring Organisations is to cover the journey with Travel/Medical Insurance that will provide for either organised recovery of passengers and vehicle or meet any claim for recovery by a third party. Obviously this should be checked before any journey and if an incident occurs ensure that the Insurers agree the action before agreeing to have the vehicle recovered. It may be worth considering getting a family member or close friend to travel to the location and drive the vehicle home and the insurers may be willing to consider this and pay the expenses, eg. Air Fare and Taxis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docted Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Brian Are you not combining here vehicle insurance as is compulsory under law and recovery insurance which is a voluntary purchase? If you have your recovery insurance through your vehicle insurance this is normally an additional policy anyway although you pay for both to the same company at the same time. I don't believe for example that Norwich Union -offer a recovery policy on their vehicle policies but this is an add on which is usually "farmed out" to a recovery company. In the event I am wrong however how would the recovery company know that your passenger was your significant other or even a driver? Happy Christmas Docted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 I'm guessing, Eddie, but from the vehicle details as now recorded/stored by DVLA? Don't know otherwise, but if asked whether you were alone I guess most would be honest. Asked again if your passenger was entitled to drive the vahicle, I assume the same would be true. Surely, you're not suggesting lying? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Hi, Presumably your passenger could refuse to drive your vehicle. Or if they have had any alchohol recently, maybe they would not be allowed to...perhaps worth carrying a small bottle for such situations? *-) 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docted Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 I would not commit an act of lying but what is wrong with not committing oneself. Brian I also believe that recovery and vehicle insurance as per Road Traffic Acts are not tied together. Thus if I were unable to drive and my spouse unwilling, for whatever reason, for a vehicle recovery I would expect that part of the contract to be kept by the insurance company responsible for the recovery. docted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDR Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 (?) I do'nt see a problem if you have the correct insurance and you are unable to drive the the insurace/recovery will cover this and bring you home, know need for second driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 docted - 2007-12-04 6:25 PM Brian I don't believe for example that Norwich Union -offer a recovery policy on their vehicle policies but this is an add on which is usually "farmed out" to a recovery company. In the event I am wrong however how would the recovery company know that your passenger was your significant other or even a driver? Happy Christmas Docted Hi Eddie, Comfort (Norwich Union) farm out the recovery/breakdown to the RAC. I've used it once and that was for my wheel bearing earlier this year in Portugal. It was a very efficient service. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Well, yes Eddie, I would expect that too. However, the recovery contracts do have these exclusion clauses inserted. One must presume, as with any contract, that the clauses are there for a purpose. The purpose seems clear enough: that in the stated cases, a relief driver will not be provided. I quote (RAC European): "We will not pay for the cost of a replacement driver if there is another qualified driver in the party who is fit to drive" (my underline). Alternatively, again I quote (RAC UK Recovery): "You may be able to use Recovery if you are ill, and if there are no passengers who can drive the vehicle, so that you cannot continue your trip. You must show us some form of medical certification for this (in these cases, we will provide the service as we see fit)" (Again the underline is mine). These seems to me abundantly clear. There is no automatic right to a relief driver, and such right as the contract may provide is highly conditional.Now, if you are taken ill in Chipping Sodbury, and the recovery cost is a few hundred pounds, the point about the presence of a qualified driver being present may well be overlooked. Hence, presumably, as above, "in these cases, we will provide the service as we see fit". However, the territorial limits for the European scheme are, simply stated, pretty much the whole of Europe West of the Urals. Think Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Poland etc, but also (with conditions) Israel and Iceland. Now, a relief driver (or transportation) from these countries due to illness would cost serious money!It is under these conditions that I suggest it is unwise to include a reluctant spouse/partner on the insurance certificate as a named driver. If you were incapicitated by illness in one of the remoter parts of Europe your spouse/partner would presumably be quite worried enough about you, and getting you home, without someone questioning him/her as to whether they can drive, and implying they should/may have to. For them to have to start arguing contractual niceties, and explain why they are on the insurance if they don't intend driving, over the phone, with someone 1,500 miles away, is not (I think) quite what they would want! However, if they aren't included on the insurance as a named driver in the first place, the situation can't arise. That, it seems to me, is a far more comforting situation for them to be in, should those circumstances arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Nobby - 2007-12-04 4:48 PM I contacted my insurer, Comfort Insurance, who you will be aware do specialise in cover for motorhomers and they immediately stated that this was an issue with which they were familiar from regular experience. I was assured categorically that under the terms of their insurance for sending a recovery driver in the event of my incapacity abroad, they do not automatically expect a non-competent driver (ie my wife) to drive the vehicle even though she is qualified and named as a driver on the policy. I was prepared at the time to remove her as a named driver but was assured that this would not be necessary. This may be less magnanimous on their part than it seems as the insurer might well consider the long distance continental driving of a vehicle by an incompetent (but otherwise authorised) driver to represent a high risk to them and therefore potentially be far more costly than the provision of a recovery driver. Good post covering an important issue. Nobby Hi Nobby, I was very interested in your comments as I have had my motorhome insurance/recovery with Comfort for the last ten years in fact I've also got the combined travel/medical/house insurance with them as well. What they have told you is contrary to what it states in the Policy Document Page 25 Section XII para 6. Replacement Driver. We will pay for: The cost of a replacement driver to drive your vehicle and the parties to your destination or home if a registered doctor declares you medically unfit to drive and you are the only qualified driver. We will not pay the cost of a replacement driver if there is another qualified driver in the party who is fit to drive. You contact the RAC and not Comfort if you need assistance, in fact you get a little man in India. I'm speaking from first hand experience as we had to use the service in February this year when we had a wheel bearing go in Portugal. We had excellent service from them, the wheel bearing was sourced and fitted within 48 hours at a very reasonable cost. Brian, The RAC do not currently operate in Israel & Iceland. You are advised to pay for the service your self and claim on your return to the UK. I'd hate to think what would happen if the vehicle needed to be shipped home. Safe travelling Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Hi Don, Yes, I am similarly insured up to the hilt with Comfort just like yourself. I contacted them earlier this year and had a discussion with Ben Cue about this issue and in fact quoted the very paragraphs that you have quoted above. I was particularly concerned as I was about to visit Sicily and Southern Italy this last Autumn. He advised me that they have on a number of occasions experienced this very situation where a non-competent but otherwise healthy spouse is the only qualified driver in the 'party' and a recovery driver has nevertheless been sent. It was made clear to me that the interpretation is adopted that a driver may well be 'qualified' by being licensed and insured but a lack of competence and practice renders them not 'fit to drive' thousands of miles in continental Europe. My wife's normal driving experience is to go to Sainsbury's 2 miles away and she will occasionally drive my camper in the UK. This does not mean that she is 'fit' to negotiate hundreds of miles a day in foreign lands. Indeed, I may be fit to jog a few miles but this does not mean that I would similarly be able to run all the way to London from Lincolnshire even though you could say that I am fit to run. In other words, 'fit' must surely be interpreted as being readiness for the task ahead rather than merely healthy. Having now been there, I must say that the prospect of driving in Southern Italy would plunge my wife into such mental & physical inertia enough to satisfy even the tightest interpretation of the word unfit. :-D I am interested to hear that you had to arrange your Recovery assistance by going other than through Comfort themselves as the intermediary. This fact alone may induce me to again review the presence of my wife as a named driver on the camper insurance as the sensible interpretation of Ben Cue and that of a little man in India may well be somewhat different at an important time. I am grateful for your intervention on this as I was under the impression that my pleas for assistance would go to Comfort themselves in the first instance. My renewal is due in a couple of weeks so I'll give Comfort a call tomorrow and mention this issue again while I'm on and report back. I'm sure there must be other Comfort users on here to whom this may be relevant. Nobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 Yes Don, but I was intending to refer to the territorial lmits within which the recovery scheme operates, and not to who actually carries out the job. You are correct in that you have to pay up front in Israel and Iceland, but the scheme still covers those countries, which is why you are (you hope!) able to recover those costs under the scheme. Sorry if the distinction was not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 Which, Nobby, is precesely why I raised it. When dealing with any contract, it is the words on paper that count, and not what the nice man on the phone says. The advice I was given was not dissimilar in terms of what may happen in practice, but the clear steer was to take the reluctant (Incompetent? Never!) driver off. That way, there can be no doubt who is the qualified, fit (or unfit) driver. It is also worth pointing out that the cover is provided via the RAC, who have "block sold" the recovery etc service to Norwich Union. Under the circumstances, it is always possible someone will say "Ben who"? Rather than "Oh well, if Ben say so, it must be OK"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Well thanks Brian but the advice I would prefer to consult over the meaning of 'fit to drive' is my insurer with whom my contract is rather than Brian Who? I would also strongly advise others to do so too on matters of insurance cover rather than rely on blanket assurances from internet forums. If the reading and interpretation of documentation and even statute was as simple as you say, then we could do without ever consulting anybody, including lawyers. In the light of what you say, I guess that whatever information I glean from Comfort today will not sway you at all. I would merely exhort any reader to consult their own insurer regarding a question of the meaning of anything within their insurance documents. That was the essential point of my initial reply. I will leave the thread for you to have the last word. :-D Nobby Edited to add a smiley! No bad blood intended here. Also - just noticed a spelling error! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 It may well be the case, as Don says, that, when one contacts the RAC from Portugal, you get a "little man in India", but, when I had a problem recently in France, I got a "little man in France". Presumably the geographical location of RAC call-centres varies according to the phone-number employed to contact them. My wife used to be an 'only in extremis' named driver on our motorhome's insurance policy, though she has never driven any vehicle larger than a car and never driven abroad (where all of our motorcaravanning is done). When we changed from a RHD motorhome to an LHD one, reducing the likelihood of her ever driving it to realistically nil, her name was removed from the policy. In the event of me being medically incapacitated while abroad, I don't know whether she might still be considered to be a "qualified driver in the party who is fit to drive" in order to recover our motorcaravan to the UK, but (as Brian suggests) I would expect her not being named on the motorhome's policy should be significant if this were argued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakaleg Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 An interesting thread, another thought, if you take your spouse off the motorhome insurance, and they have third party cover in their own right, couldnt your insurance company/recovery say that a passenger in your party has insurance to drive? Also, what if they were to distraught to drive? pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 Nobby, I've PM'd you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteS Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 I have just (today) renewed my europe breakdown ins with CC red pennant. Because of this thread I asked wether my wife would be expected to drive in the event of me being unable. I was told NO my wife would not be expected to drive. So I renewed. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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