Randonneur Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 We had a problem today after driving 30 miles to go shopping, came back to the vehicle and the battery was flat. Luckily a nearby Motorhome Dealers were able to help and jump started us from his car. Now we need to put the battery on charge and this is where the problem lies. Is it possible to connect a battery charger whilst the battery is in situe or do we have to remove the battery to charge it. Our vehicle is a 1998 Fiat Ducato 2.5cc. As this is our first year of owning a motorhome we thought it prudent to ask our very knowledgeable forum members before doing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 If you read the manual it will give all sorts of stories of death and distruction if you should do this, but although I would normaly take the battery off I have charged insitu and never had a problem. The other day connected up starter charger for 30mins? before starting no problems. But note I would only charge with bonnet open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panagah Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I have charged batteries whilst in sittu before without problems. I would however get me self a coupe of 13mm spanners and disconnect the battery but leave it in sittu to charge. Not a difficult job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Charge it as is, but put on + lead first, then connect - lead to bare metal on engine. This is to avoid a spark which could make your battery explode. As the battery gives off Hydrogen when charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Is it not the case that the charge current of mains powered battery chargers exceeds the operating range of certain of the on board electronics, many of which are permanently live, and so may damage them?If so, leaving the battery connected while charging in this way would seem to be unwise. Whether or not this may be the case, of course, depends on the generation of the base vehicle, and so the amount, and type, of electronics it carries. If in any doubt, surely, the safe option would be to disconnect at least at the positive terminal before connecting the charger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 We have a permanantly connected Optimate III (pre desulphation cycle type) that keeps the battery topped up when on mains hook up on our 98 Peugeot Boxer so you should be ok with one of those but I would be careful if it is a high power boost charger or one with a desulphation cycle (these can put out 38 volts and as has been said can damage certain componants if fitted). However I don't believe that our vehicles of that era have any sensitive componants when the ignition is off. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Many thanks for all your replies. I may seem thick asking this question, but, if we are connected up to the mains electricity supply does any charge go into the engine battery? We have always taken batteries from vehicles before charging them but on this particular van the battery seems to be in a very awkward position to remove, hence the reason for asking if it could be charged insitue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 As far as I know a normal battery charger puts out no more volts than the vehicle alternator i.e 14.4 Volts. So should cause no harm. I don't see the difference between the alternator and the charger, both are doing the same thing surely. I would think that any voltage sensitive parts would be protected by voltage control circuits. I have always charged my modern cars with battery in-situ and cannot see any possible reason why my M.H should be any different, so will carry on doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 ive got a 2001 ducato pre jtd i always charge the battery without disconnecting i have never had a problem but do as an earlier post says pos first and neg to engine or chassis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Randonneur - 2007-12-13 1:01 PM Many thanks for all your replies. I may seem thick asking this question, but, if we are connected up to the mains electricity supply does any charge go into the engine battery? We have always taken batteries from vehicles before charging them but on this particular van the battery seems to be in a very awkward position to remove, hence the reason for asking if it could be charged insitue. Some times, they do , sometimes they dont ! Depends upon the charger unit fitted. Plan B is to have a permently connection to the battery and use a maintence charger that has quick fit connectors and a safety isolater / cap when not in use. I have a couple of thes chargers from Halfrauds and charge the batteries a couple of hours 3 days a week.(7 day time clock) Keeps everything topped up. Works for me and I dont have to have the 12 Motorhome Volt humming away. Plan C solar Panels. Expensive but have there placwe if you need them. rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 On my 2005 Peugeot Boxer AS Nuevo the fitted mains charger can be switched to charge either the habitation battery or the vehicle battery. Clearly the vehicle battery remains fully connected, but no idea on the charging circuitry involved. According to John Wickersham (The Motorcaravan Manual) ".....normal motorcaravan charger's output is no more than 13.8v means that the tolerance of 12v accessories allows them to operate at the same time without the risk of damage". This obviously refers to habitation accessories, but presumably a charger with a 13.8v output, rather than the up to 14.8v output on a typical standalone battery charger, would be safer to use on the connected vehicle battery. I'm no expert - but this seems logical to me. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I bought a CTEK battery charger a while ago, and the instructions say it is quite safe to leave the battery connected to the vehicle. This I have always done with no ill effects. My vehicle is a Rapido 709F on a 2003 Ducato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingpete Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I have been doing as Basil, using an "Optimate" charger, which is mainly intended for use on motorcycles, to keep their tiddily little batteries charged up when parked for long periods of time. I have connected 'van to the mains, and use Optimate from power outlet, which is 220 v, and connect + to + & neg to chassis. Silent in operation and very low consumption. Now that winter has arrived, it is vital to keep batteries charged up or the liquids will freeze, ruining the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 peter - 2007-12-13 1:07 PM As far as I know a normal battery charger puts out no more volts than the vehicle alternator i.e 14.4 Volts. So should cause no harm. I don't see the difference between the alternator and the charger, both are doing the same thing surely. I would think that any voltage sensitive parts would be protected by voltage control circuits. I have always charged my modern cars with battery in-situ and cannot see any possible reason why my M.H should be any different, so will carry on doing it. This is not my field, Peter, but I believe the answer is that some chargers do exceed the alternator output by quite a margin. It depends on how "electronicky" your base vehicle is, and what resilience has been built in to the electronics, as to whether such higher voltage causes damage. However, the newer the base, it would seem, the greater the risk, and some of those electronic bits are very expensive! I'd just say be very careful until you've found out exactly how the vehicle should be charged and with what. For example, doesn't the Fiat manual say anything about re-charging flat batteries? You never know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Hi Randonneur, I believe that if you connect a battery charger with an output greater than 4 amps there may be a chance of damaging the alternator diodes, to protect against this all that you need to do is disconnect the earth lead of the vehicle before connecting the charger. I hope this helps you to solve your problem Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 In years gone by it was recomended to disconnect the battery before charging to prevent possible damage to the alternator's diodes, for many years now the alternators have been more than capable of handling on the vehicle charging. As the vehicle in question is pre JTD there is hardly any electronics in it to be damaged by on vehicle charging. Later vehivcles with electronic management units might well be more sensitive and the best answer is to chack in your vehicle's handbook before you try charging the battery. If it says to disconnect before charging then do so, if you don't have a vehicle handbook then phone your local Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen (delete as apropriate) dealer and ask them. My biggest concern is that your battery went flat immediately AFTER a 30 mile run. This suggests to me that your alternator might not be charging the battery very well. Any decent auto electrician should be able to check this for you properly but a rough and ready test can be carried out. Connect a voltmeter across the battery and start the engine, at tickover you should be measuring around 13.8 Volts shortly after starting. Now switch on all the electrical equipment, headlights (main beam), wipers, blower etc. The battery voltage will probably start to fall off slightly at tickover with this load on so pick the revs up to about 1500-2000RPM and hold it steady. The voltmeter should fairly quickly pick up to 13.8 Volts again (or very nearly). If it doesn't come up to near to 13.8 with a high tickover, even with all this load on the alternator then it would suggest your alternator is dying/dead. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Sylvia & Martin , I hope you get it sorted soon and it isnt something bigger like your alternator . Hope it does not spoil anything that you might have planned for Christmas like a blighty trip ? Good Luck anyway . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjphillips Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Something worth checking!!!!I have a 2000 Fiat Ducatto & a couple of years ago kept having a flat battery after 4 or 5 days standing without use.I did actually put it on charge in situe & it didnt do any harm.Eventually I got the Dealer down in Chichester to have alook at it to see why it kept going flat, I had tried a couple of local vehicle experts who couldnt find why.The 2 guys at chichester went through the electrics methodically & found the problem was actually under the dash where there was an 8 pin plug & socket,one of the connections in this link was arcing & would eventually have caused a fire.They cut these 2 wires & connected them independant of the plug & Ive never had a problem since. ( touch wood !!!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianR Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 No one has mentioned the downside to disconnecting the vehicle battery. At the very least the radio will loose its code, so you need to be sure that you have this before disconnecting. In more modern 'vans there can be other more serious consequences if the proper procedure is not followed. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 BrianR - 2007-12-14 8:42 PM No one has mentioned the downside to disconnecting the vehicle battery. At the very least the radio will loose its code, so you need to be sure that you have this before disconnecting. In more modern 'vans there can be other more serious consequences if the proper procedure is not followed. Brian Didn't mention it because: A. radio code, well ok its best to check you have the code but if you don't there are plenty of easy ways to overcome this. B. its not that modern a vehicle. If its powered by the venerable 2.5TD Peugeot motor there are no electronic management bits to get upset by disconnecting the battery, other than perhaps an alarm. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-12-13 8:22 PM In years gone by it was recomended to disconnect the battery before charging to prevent possible damage to the alternator's diodes, for many years now the alternators have been more than capable of handling on the vehicle charging. As the vehicle in question is pre JTD there is hardly any electronics in it to be damaged by on vehicle charging. Later vehivcles with electronic management units might well be more sensitive and the best answer is to chack in your vehicle's handbook before you try charging the battery. If it says to disconnect before charging then do so, if you don't have a vehicle handbook then phone your local Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen (delete as apropriate) dealer and ask them. My biggest concern is that your battery went flat immediately AFTER a 30 mile run. This suggests to me that your alternator might not be charging the battery very well. Any decent auto electrician should be able to check this for you properly but a rough and ready test can be carried out. Connect a voltmeter across the battery and start the engine, at tickover you should be measuring around 13.8 Volts shortly after starting. Now switch on all the electrical equipment, headlights (main beam), wipers, blower etc. The battery voltage will probably start to fall off slightly at tickover with this load on so pick the revs up to about 1500-2000RPM and hold it steady. The voltmeter should fairly quickly pick up to 13.8 Volts again (or very nearly). If it doesn't come up to near to 13.8 with a high tickover, even with all this load on the alternator then it would suggest your alternator is dying/dead. D.Spot on Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 BrianR - 2007-12-14 8:42 PM No one has mentioned the downside to disconnecting the vehicle battery. At the very least the radio will loose its code, so you need to be sure that you have this before disconnecting. In more modern 'vans there can be other more serious consequences if the proper procedure is not followed. BrianFor vans with electronic engine management the ECU will lose all it's settings and go into Limp mode until it self learns your driving style again. At least it does on my Toyota supra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 Peter: There have been alarmist reports in the past about battery removal on modern vans causing total loss of ECU settings that required reprogramming at a main dealership (I'm pretty sure the Mercedes Sprinter was claimed to suffer from this), but the norm seems to be that the ECU may just revert to factory-default settings for a period after the battery has been reconnected. For example, my 2005 Transit's handbook advises: "If the battery has been disconnected the vehicle may exhibit some unusual driving characteristics for approximately 5 miles (8km) after battery reconnection while the engine management system realigns itself with the engine". As the potential need to replace a battery is blindingly obvious, it's likely that all vehicle manufacturer's handbooks will provide advice if replacement may cause any sort of unusual reaction (or is that being naive?!) The Transit handbook also warns of audio system keycode-resetting being needed, though nowadays most drivers will be aware of this requirement. I'm not sure if your Supra's driving-style-sensitive ECU will be found on commercial vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 An even more simple way to check whether an alternator is charging is to switch the lights on and then start the engine. If the lights get brighter the alternator has an output and if they don't, it don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 Agreed it is a simpler test Richard but for the sake of a fiver for a digital multimeter I'd prefer to do my test and actually have some objective measured voltage readings rather than a subjective estimate as to how much brighter the lights get, or not. Besides a multimeter is such a useful tool and can be used for so many other purposes. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.