Reversing signal

[Basil]

davenewell@home - 2007-12-16 5:39 PM

 

Thanks Malc, our little missives to each other are not in any way your responsibility. Bas and myself have been interchanging via web forums for a while now and although it might appear we are a pair of old washer women at each others throats the truth is quite different. Please don't feel in any way responsible for our little tiff.

 

I think the debate centres around our individual interpretations of the word "technically". I think over the years that this word has come to mean "illegal but nobody cares" whereas my use of the term was intended to mean "technically illegal means illegal".

 

No offence taken or meant, D.

 

Absolutely Dave, total agreement!

 

Bas

[malc d]

Basil - 2007-12-18 8:28 PM

 

davenewell@home - 2007-12-16 5:39 PM

 

Thanks Malc, our little missives to each other are not in any way your responsibility. Bas and myself have been interchanging via web forums for a while now and although it might appear we are a pair of old washer women at each others throats the truth is quite different. Please don't feel in any way responsible for our little tiff.

 

I think the debate centres around our individual interpretations of the word "technically". I think over the years that this word has come to mean "illegal but nobody cares" whereas my use of the term was intended to mean "technically illegal means illegal".

 

No offence taken or meant, D.

 

Absolutely Dave, total agreement!

 

Bas

 

 

 

That's what I like to see - peace at Christmas :-S

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clive]

Reversing bleepers, some even make a white noise sound and I design them in for special customers onto industrial vehicles - but I would ban them on vehicles on the public highway. Some drivers with reversing alarms assume that because they have an alarm sounding that its YOUR fault if you don,t get out of the way. WRONG. There is no legal requirement to be able to hear to hold a driving license, just to be able bodied enough to control your vehicle and to be able to see. It also remains the drivers responsibility to ensure it is clear behind when reversing. A reversing alarm does not satisfy this requirement. A reversing camera is a far better device to have if you cannot convince your better half to go round the back and see you out.

Fitting a reversing alarm or even an anounciator which says things like "Securicor Vehicle Reversing" does not absolve the driver of their responsibility.

 

Over!

 

 

 

 

 

[malc d]

Clive - 2007-12-18 10:24 PM

 

Reversing bleepers, some even make a white noise sound and I design them in for special customers onto industrial vehicles - but I would ban them on vehicles on the public highway. Some drivers with reversing alarms assume that because they have an alarm sounding that its YOUR fault if you don,t get out of the way. WRONG. There is no legal requirement to be able to hear to hold a driving license, just to be able bodied enough to control your vehicle and to be able to see. It also remains the drivers responsibility to ensure it is clear behind when reversing. A reversing alarm does not satisfy this requirement. A reversing camera is a far better device to have if you cannot convince your better half to go round the back and see you out.

Fitting a reversing alarm or even an anounciator which says things like "Securicor Vehicle Reversing" does not absolve the driver of their responsibility.

 

Over!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Clive:

I have taken your remark " over " to be an invitation to respond.

 

Point 1

You say:

" Some drivers with reversing alarms assume that because they have an alarm sounding it's YOUR fault if you don't get out of the way --WRONG "

 

I agree with you on that.

 

Likewise I would add:

" Some drivers with hooters assume that because they have a hooter sounding it's YOUR fault if you don't get out of the way --- also WRONG"

 

Both these pieces of equipment are designed to make people aware of your presence - nothing else.

 

If you are going to ban reversing signals because people don't know what they are for, would you also ban hooters ?

 

Point 2

The subject of this thread is - Reversing SIGNAL.

I haven't got a reversing camera, and I stand to be corrected, but I don't think they can be used as a reversing signal, so I don't really understand why they have been introduced a couple of times into this thread.

(I can only speculate -- is this thread being infiltrated by reversing camera salesmen ?).

 

;-)

 

 

Over - (if you want to )

 

Merry Xmas to all

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

When reversing in a very confined space or where people are about, I ask my other half to stand by the rear window and keep watch for me whilst I use the reversing camera and door mirrors - mainly the mirrors as you can't look at both simultaneously.

 

It really is not worth spoiling my holiday, or my van, because some silly s#d walks behind the van at the wrong time and I see nowt more to be gained by fitting a buzzer.

 

However each to his own and if you feel that it could be of benefit, then that is your own free choice which nobody else should criticise or condemn.

[Clive]

Hi Malk,

You are correct. It was an invitation for a responce which I hoped to promote with my pointed comments. Sorry about going off thread but its one of my failings. I meander in conversation and do just the same on the forum. Its called "waffle".

For reversing sounder supply connect in parallel with the reversing lights at the back of the vehicle. I thought that was a no brainer and so did not comment.

 

My Mrs uses her twin turbo bi-tone air blown horns on her little Agila as a means of expressing her frustration, anger or total dissapointment at others driving standards. Seldom as a warning that she is aproaching a hump backed bridge on a bend. Unfortunately she is quite typical of many in this respect.

I try to not use the horn at all (the camper is big enough not to miss surely?) as most take it as an afront and not as a reminder of ones presence.

 

I live in the real world and not utopia as detailed in that little book about driving.

 

Over!!!!

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

But, despite all the foregoing opinionated debate, we still don't have the definitive answer as to legality.

What does UK C&U say about which types of reversing warnings are required on which types of vehicles, and whether fitting warnings to other types of vehicles is, actually, illegal; or merely not a C&U requirement?

Does anyone know?

[Ukase]

Our local council have the Brigade reversing alarms fitted to virtually all their vehicles including car derived light vans such as Ford Fiesta and Vauxhall Astra.

 

Their Fleet Manager has made the following comments that may assist understanding in this thread.

 

The reversing aids only break C and U legislation if they do not have a switch to enable the alarm to be switched off automatically or manually after 10:00pm (Thought it was 11:00pm!). This is the same legislation as that for the sounding of vehicle horns. [it would seem therefore that the combined reversing lightbulb warning buzzer type of unit would breach the legislation unless it could be fitted with an override switch].

 

The reversing aids are installed to meet the Health and Safety policy of the council. Some vehicles are in addition fitted with flashing lights to warn those with hearing difficulties. Some vehicles with poor rear visibility such as rear loading waste vehicles are in addition fitted with reversing camera systems.

 

KB.

[malc d]

Ukase - 2007-12-19 3:50 PM

 

Our local council have the Brigade reversing alarms fitted to virtually all their vehicles including car derived light vans such as Ford Fiesta and Vauxhall Astra.

 

Their Fleet Manager has made the following comments that may assist understanding in this thread.

 

The reversing aids only break C and U legislation if they do not have a switch to enable the alarm to be switched off automatically or manually after 10:00pm (Thought it was 11:00pm!). This is the same legislation as that for the sounding of vehicle horns. [it would seem therefore that the combined reversing lightbulb warning buzzer type of unit would breach the legislation unless it could be fitted with an override switch].

 

The reversing aids are installed to meet the Health and Safety policy of the council. Some vehicles are in addition fitted with flashing lights to warn those with hearing difficulties. Some vehicles with poor rear visibility such as rear loading waste vehicles are in addition fitted with reversing camera systems.

 

KB.

 

 

Thanks for that Ukase. Nice and concise !

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clive]

I believe you will find that in the UK reversing alarms are only legal for Public Service Vehicles and then only if they are over a certain weight.

 

For example you can be prosecuted for "Vehicle or part in dangerous or defective condition" for having a "Reversing alarm on unauthorised vehicle".

 

Look at regulation 37(10)© of the 1986 Regulations which remain current.

 

 

 

 

[Basil]

Ukase - 2007-12-19 3:50 PM

 

The reversing aids only break C and U legislation if they do not have a switch to enable the alarm to be switched off automatically or manually after 10:00pm (Thought it was 11:00pm!). This is the same legislation as that for the sounding of vehicle horns. [it would seem therefore that the combined reversing lightbulb warning buzzer type of unit would breach the legislation unless it could be fitted with an override switch].

 

KB.

 

I believe this to be incorrect and your fleet manager wrongly informed, there is definately an entry in the regs that restrict the use of these to vehicles over a certain weight, unless there has been an ammendment in the last two years. I have not quoted the weight as I no longer have the regs to hand however I believe Dave to be correct when he says 3500kgs but not sure if it is 3850kgs. Also as the full regs are not available on line searching for them has so far been fruitless. I am awaiting a collegue to look up the relevant portion of the regs so I can post them.

 

Bas

 

Edit Sorry I posted this before reading Clives post, hopefully this is the definative answer as Clive is usually right.

[Brian Kirby]

Clive - 2007-12-19 10:46 PM I believe you will find that in the UK reversing alarms are only legal for Public Service Vehicles and then only if they are over a certain weight. For example you can be prosecuted for "Vehicle or part in dangerous or defective condition" for having a "Reversing alarm on unauthorised vehicle". Look at regulation 37(10)© of the 1986 Regulations which remain current.

The only problem with that, Clive, is the availability for most of us of a copy of the regs.  Only the amendments are on the web, the actual regs cannot be consulted in that way.  The alternative is to buy a copy (ouch!), or for some kind soul who has access to a copy to post what they actually say.  :-) :-) ;-)

Can you possibly help?  For example, what is the definition of "an authorised vehicle"?

[michele]

Can I just say does it really matter ?

 

Who or what copper in their right mind firstly knows or is aware of these regs ? . And would you really want to prosecute someone for putting another device on to a vehicle which could help people.

 

I would imagine they have better things to do .

Again Malc d use your own judgement there is always a law against something you have to weigh up the odds yourself . Now you know its against some regulation somewhere its up to you if you want to take that risk . I know I would because I consider it a silly law and a small law .

 

Having said that I stay within the law most time BUT I bet even I break it occassionaly .

 

Just my opinion. Good luck anyway

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

michele - 2007-12-20 12:36 PM

 

Can I just say does it really matter ?

 

Who or what copper in their right mind firstly knows or is aware of these regs ? . And would you really want to prosecute someone for putting another device on to a vehicle which could help people.

 

I would imagine they have better things to do .

Again Malc d use your own judgement there is always a law against something you have to weigh up the odds yourself . Now you know its against some regulation somewhere its up to you if you want to take that risk . I know I would because I consider it a silly law and a small law .

 

Having said that I stay within the law most time BUT I bet even I break it occassionaly .

 

Just my opinion. Good luck anyway

 

 

As long as it has a switch to turn it off late at night I would very much go along with Michele's point of view here.

[malc d]

michele - 2007-12-20 12:36 PM

 

Can I just say does it really matter ?

 

Who or what copper in their right mind firstly knows or is aware of these regs ? . And would you really want to prosecute someone for putting another device on to a vehicle which could help people.

 

I would imagine they have better things to do .

Again Malc d use your own judgement there is always a law against something you have to weigh up the odds yourself . Now you know its against some regulation somewhere its up to you if you want to take that risk . I know I would because I consider it a silly law and a small law .

 

Having said that I stay within the law most time BUT I bet even I break it occassionaly .

 

Just my opinion. Good luck anyway

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your good wishes Michele.

I think my van is under the 'legal' limit but I may fit the bulb type bleeper at some time ( no rush).

I too like to stay within the law, but it's not the police Id be scared of, it's other members of this forum. ;-) ;-) ;-)

 

 

 

[michele]

:D oh yes dont you ask about bread trays now . :D

[Brian Kirby]

michele - 2007-12-20 12:36 PM Can I just say does it really matter ? ..........

In one sense Michele, no it doesn't matter. 

However, my point was that if some kind soul could just post the actual words from the regs we could all read them, rather than reading someone else's interpretation of them, and could then make a genuinely informed judgement for ourselves on how to react.

I suppose I've just been conditioned to be ultra-cautious, but some folk read carelessly, some don't read beyond the bit that interests them at that moment, and some don't fully understand what they have read.

Notwithstanding, some of the most heated arguments I've witnessed have been between people who have both read the same thing, but reached differing conclusions as to what it meant.  (Think A frames!! :-))

Me, I just prefer to proceed from the facts and make my own mistakes, rather than assuming other's assertions are fault free and unbiased.

[michele]

Hey Brian ,

Dont read anything in to what I said either :D

just trying in a round about way to say make your own judgements not trying to stop good people like yourself looking it up .

 

Your quest for knowledge never ceases to amaze me thats why I always come to you lot :D

[Clive]

I am going from memory also plus my dealings with the STVZO European regulations. Its amazing that we can be prosecuted for contravening laws that we are not allowed to see unless we pay to look. Sounds cock eyed to me.

 

C.

 

[michele]

Try 192.com you can see all about you on there for free and so can everyone else.

 

Just popping off to get a mortgage in your name Clive. sounds eye cocked to me as well .

The worlds gone mad I am convinced now.

[Brian Kirby]

Barking!  But that is just what they have done, Clive.  The C&U were issued in 1988 (I think) and every amendment is on the web, but the actual regs themselves were introduced just before the cut-off date. 

There must be all manner of other bits of legislation/regulation where the same approach was followed.  It would have been far more logical to exclude anything that refers to acts/regulations enacted/introduced before the cut-off rather than the meaningless and potentially misleading mess we currently have. 

Rant over, Merry Christmas!

[Ukase]

I will be able to get access to the Vehicle Construction and Use regulations but not until after January 4th. After the comments on this thread it seemed sensible to speak directly to both VOSA and the DfT about the legality or otherwise of the Audible Reversing Aids such as Backalert.

 

The relevant regulations are 37 and 99 for those interested.

 

The advice I received from the DfT is that these type of units can be fitted to ANY vehicle and are not subject to MOT testing. There are limitations to their use on Public Roads and Highways. Where fitted they may also fall under the Environmental Health regulations regarding noise if too strident.

 

The Noise Abatement Society are currently interested in restricting the noise and use of these devices and are funding the loan of White Noise test units to Vehicle Fleet operators. See websites for O.W.L. and Brigade for a full detailed description of the White Noise advantage and use.

 

The use of Audible Reversing Systems on Public Highways and Roads is restricted by the regulations to Goods Vehicles over 2 tons MAM, Emergency Vehicles, Buses and Public Service Vehicles, Public Authority Vehicles such as Waste Collection Vehicles and Working Plant such as Quarry Vehicles and Builders Trucks. The alarms are to be used only between the hours of 7:00 am and 11:30 pm. Any device of this type must have the means of being switched off manually.

 

There is at present no restriction within the regulations of the use of these devices on Private Land and this includes private dwelling driveways, caravan sites and private carparks. Land owners may however exclude the use of the devices on their land. The obvious example is Caravan Parks where their use could greatly annoy other campers.

 

The devices could, if used in a residential area, lead to other residents complaining under the Environmental Health regulations.

 

To answer directly the original posting by Malc D:-

 

There is no prohibition to fitting any audible reversing system such as the Backalert to your motor caravan as long as the unit can be switched off when required. A unit without this switch facility would fall foul of the regulations.

 

Unless your motor caravan (Any Weight) is registered and insured as a goods vehicle then the use of the audible reversing alarm will not be allowed on Public Roads and Highways.

 

The unit must be within the decibel limitations for these units else Environmental Health regulations could be breached. The white noise units favoured by the Noise Abatement Society would seem to be the sensible option.

 

Looking at the cost of a unit (£35 +) it will be up to you to decide whether the cost can be off-set against use and safety considerations. Considering the points raised by Brian about always having to check that there is no one behind the vehicle a camera and sensors may be a better option.

 

I hope this adds value to the debate and I will try and get a copy of the regulations when we return from Christmans Holidays. Until then have a great Christmas and my best wishes for a Properous and Happy 2008.

 

KB

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Ukase, and a Happy (and well deserved!) Christmas to you too.  That feels much better!  However, if you can stand it in January, a quote from the C&U wording would just put the cherry on the cake. 

The short answer, in the meantime, seems to be that you can legally fit such units, but must be very selective in what you get, and where, and when, you use them.  So overall, for the cost, not really very worthwhile.  Thanks again.

[malc d]

Thanks Ukase for all your efforts on this one - they are appreciated.

 

I don't have much trouble seeing what is behind my van, and of course, I always check anyway before reversing.

 

The reason that I have repeatedly ( but unsuccessfully) tried to steer away from the subject of cameras is the fact that cameras do NOT let people know that you are reversing, which is what I was proposing to do.

 

Thanks again - and all the best for Xmas.

 

malc d

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Basil]

Ukase - 2007-12-21 3:11 PM

 

The advice I received from the DfT is that these type of units can be fitted to ANY vehicle and are not subject to MOT testing. There are limitations to their use on Public Roads and Highways. Where fitted they may also fall under the Environmental Health regulations regarding noise if too strident.

 

The use of Audible Reversing Systems on Public Highways and Roads is restricted by the regulations to Goods Vehicles over 2 tons MAM, Emergency Vehicles, Buses and Public Service Vehicles, Public Authority Vehicles such as Waste Collection Vehicles and Working Plant such as Quarry Vehicles and Builders Trucks. The alarms are to be used only between the hours of 7:00 am and 11:30 pm. Any device of this type must have the means of being switched off manually.

 

 

To answer directly the original posting by Malc D:-

 

There is no prohibition to fitting any audible reversing system such as the Backalert to your motor caravan as long as the unit can be switched off when required. A unit without this switch facility would fall foul of the regulations.

 

Unless your motor caravan (Any Weight) is registered and insured as a goods vehicle then the use of the audible reversing alarm will not be allowed on Public Roads and Highways.

 

Looking at the cost of a unit (£35 +) it will be up to you to decide whether the cost can be off-set against use and safety considerations. Considering the points raised by Brian about always having to check that there is no one behind the vehicle a camera and sensors may be a better option.

 

 

KB

Edited only to reduce the size of post.

 

Thanks Ukase,

 

So to summarise and with reference to the above, much like some other equipment, it is not illegal to sell or fit but it would be illegal to use it in most circumstances where you would have thought to use it unless it is on a goods vehicle over 2 tonnes, is that correct as you understand it?

 

I have always thought they were a good idea but have refrained from fitting one as I was advised they were not legal. That was the only reason that I raised my post in the first place as I believed that malc should be made aware if he wasn't, then it is his choice.

Having been cautioned a police officer for having yellow reflective tape outlining the rear of our motorhome, makes it very conspicuous in the dark, as apparently this is only legal on lorries over 32 feet in length I know that some PC's do pull you for things that are deemed illegal even though they may be an improvement in safety terms (still have it fitted by the way).

 

Bas