Guest Le Thou Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I don't want to start the A Frame debate yet again so no takers on that one please, this post is just for those of you still debating and for what it's worth this is my opinion. After much deliberating about cost , storage , usage etc etc it is painfully obvious that the A frame is used because its cheaper easier to store and more manageable, but that's where it ends. Having bought a trailer and done a dummy run with Smart car on trailer it feels 1000% safer on a trailer easy to tow and it looks better. So come on guys, we know the a frame IS illegal so don't go there but why spend £30,000 on your motorhome and then expect to tow a car safely and spend £300 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simsy56 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I agree with you entirely. Furthermore, do people realise that Smart cars are not for towing on the road. Automatic gearboxes do not enjoy being towed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicwo Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 The Smart has not got an automatic gearbox. It is a manual one and the gears are changed using a clutch operated by the cars electrics influenced by the ECU. That is a fact. Has it a proper neutral ? Yes it has. Vicwo ( Smart cars since 1999 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 The concern over towing Smart cars on A frames is that although it is a manual gearbox with electronically controlled gearshifts its lubrication relies on a first motion shaft driven pump. The result of this is that when you tow it without the engine runnig the gearbox parts anre not getting their usual supply of oil. Having said that many, many people have been towing Smarts for a good few years without problems. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Le Thou - 2007-12-16 9:29 PM I don't want to start the A Frame debate yet again so no takers on that one please, this post is just for those of you still debating and for what it's worth this is my opinion. After much deliberating about cost , storage , usage etc etc it is painfully obvious that the A frame is used because its cheaper easier to store and more manageable, but that's where it ends. Having bought a trailer and done a dummy run with Smart car on trailer it feels 1000% safer on a trailer easy to tow and it looks better. So come on guys, we know the a frame IS illegal so don't go there but why spend £30,000 on your motorhome and then expect to tow a car safely and spend £300 ?? You don't want to start the debate again and you say this?? Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Double post removed. Doesn't appear you can delete posts on this board, or am I missing it. Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Le Thou - 2007-12-16 9:29 PM I don't want to start the A Frame debate yet again so no takers on that one please, this post is just for those of you still debating and for what it's worth this is my opinion. After much deliberating about cost , storage , usage etc etc it is painfully obvious that the A frame is used because its cheaper easier to store and more manageable, but that's where it ends. Having bought a trailer and done a dummy run with Smart car on trailer it feels 1000% safer on a trailer easy to tow and it looks better. So come on guys, we know the a frame IS illegal so don't go there but why spend £30,000 on your motorhome and then expect to tow a car safely and spend £300 ?? But you have never towed a car on an 'A' frame so how do you know it is safer?You must have got a hell of a discount on your Miami if you only paid £30,000!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I would still contend that the A-frame is not only easier to manage but much safer to tow than a trailer - especially a single axle one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 david lloyd - 2007-12-17 4:02 PM I would still contend that the A-frame is not only easier to manage but much safer to tow than a trailer - especially a single axle one at that. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 david lloyd - 2007-12-17 4:02 PM I would still contend that the A-frame is not only easier to manage but much safer to tow than a trailer - especially a single axle one at that. Sorry David don,t agree with you on that one, I have visions of under heavy braking the Smart car shooting under the back of the Miami, the 750 kgs at 60 mph probably equates to a few tonnes that needs to be stopped with a braking system that is designed for usage through a servo which because the engine isn,t running you haven't got. Totally relying on a cable through the car system that has to pull the brake pedal and you call that safe?? Is it me?? As for two wheel trailers there are thousnds of caravans on the road covering thousands of miles every year without mishaps so I cant see anything wrong with a two wheeled trailer providing you check noseweight before hitching up ( I have a noseweight guage which is quite accurate and can now get the loading perfect for the van). So I am sorry but you won't convince me, the way I see it you are using an illegal method of towing with an insufficient braking system. Also Miami yes I did get a cracking discount on the Autotrail Miami but I,m not telling you how much but I wish I'd have got it for 30 grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Le ThouYou still haven't said if you have used an 'A' frame so you can have a comparison????I have towed single axle caravans and twin axled caravans for years and know an 'A' frame is safer. My main reason for swapping to an MH was to get rid of what I considered to be an unstable outfit eventhough I had a heavy 4x4, twin axles and loads of experience.Absolute rubbish about the car going under the motorhome. What speed do you do 100 mph???You can definitely keep your trailer and I will stick to the 'A' frame legal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I made an "A" frame once, specifically to move my sons project hot Ford Escort when he moved out of home for the first time quite a few years back now. He still has it hung on the wall of his garage. But their designed use is limited and a proper braked trailer of suitable rating is a more acceptable and safer solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 A frames are for ......................... 1. People who believe the law does not apply to them because they own a motorhome. 2. People who believe foreign law doesn't apply to them because they are British. 3. People who, despite reading the complete construction and use regulations, still argue that the regulations, despite being law, are wrong. 4. People who do not have the skill to reverse a loaded trailer. This is merely my opinion and does not imply that I am right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 donna miller - 2007-12-18 8:27 AM A frames are for ......................... 4. People who do not have the skill to reverse a loaded trailer. This is merely my opinion and does not imply that I am right or wrong. Certainly doesn't imply you are right Donna....... I, for one, can reverse a fully loaded 44 tonne articulated lorry in and out of tight spaces and have said on this very forum (despite many 'knowledgeable' people saying it can't be done) that I have reversed my car on an A-frame many times - even off a narrow bridge on a 90 degree bend. The bridge in question is at the entrance to the Riverside Caravan Park at Worksop. I have no super powers or special talents just patience and self confidence. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 donna miller - 2007-12-18 8:27 AM A frames are for ......................... 1. People who believe the law does not apply to them because they own a motorhome. 2. People who believe foreign law doesn't apply to them because they are British. 3. People who, despite reading the complete construction and use regulations, still argue that the regulations, despite being law, are wrong. 4. People who do not have the skill to reverse a loaded trailer. This is merely my opinion and does not imply that I am right or wrong. You are both right and wrong and who cares anyway. Fed up with the arguments.I will still use my 'a' frame in this country but certainly not abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Hi, I saw a chap at the Canterbury C&CC site a few weeks ago who was towing a Old Mini "T" reg I think [not 1999 the earlier "T" reg] with I think a Braked "A" Frame and i was wondering did the old Mini's have servo brakes ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Hi Brian an "old" T reg would be 1979 vintage and minis of that age would have had servo assisted brakes only if they were fitted with discs on the front. If they had drums all round then servo assistance was not necessary as the front brakes were of a twin leading shoe design that gave a "self servo" action. Mind you they were bloody useless in reverse but that doesn't get round the auto reverse requirements for a trailer. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I only started this thread to say how pleased I was with the trailer and how it performed and the A frame was not an option because of the safety and legal issues, also David you didn,t mention about the antique type braking system employed on A frames, they are downright dangerous and you won't convince me. Bottom line is simple they are illegal whether you can reverse them or not, the braking method is insufficient in emergencies, and it not a recognised or acceptable method of towing abroad, so basically your arguments don, stack up, If you are insistent on this then tell me what is illegal, unsafe or not acceptable in law to towing a car on a suitably balanced trailer.............................answer ......nothing !! Whether I have towed with an a frame or not is not the issue the fact you can reverse a wagon, irrelevant, lets stick to legalities and facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Oh dear here we go again. Toys out of the prams again :-( D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 You know what its bloody Christmas can't we give it a rest for christmas. If people want to use A frames thats up to them, loads of things are against the law loads aint either way does it matter . What matters is the person making the choice to do or not to do is old enough and ugly enough to know what risks they are taking and its not for us to tell them otherwise. There are things that I wouldnt do and things I would like Derek said the other day make your own judgement. So its dangerous against the law who cares let people make their own decisions in life . Sick to the back teeth of A frames why dont people just agree to differ .Do your own thing what ever :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miami Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Amen and AmenLet's all have a happy Xmas!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Calm down, Michele; its only a forum! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 david lloyd - 2007-12-18 12:45 PM Certainly doesn't imply you are right Donna....... I, for one, can reverse a fully loaded 44 tonne articulated lorry in and out of tight spaces and have said on this very forum (despite many 'knowledgeable' people saying it can't be done) that I have reversed my car on an A-frame many times - even off a narrow bridge on a 90 degree bend. The bridge in question is at the entrance to the Riverside Caravan Park at Worksop. I have no super powers or special talents just patience and self confidence. David Oh dear, David, I hope that wasn't supposed to impress me, I've held a class 1 HGV for 25 years, spent 6 of those doing abnormal loads, loads of 25 metres in length were commonplace, and up to 6 metres wide,so in a p*ss*ng contest, you come second. Remember, not all girlies drive KA's with pink seat covers. :D I haven't, to my knowledge made a comment on the A frame debarcle before, but I am dismayed by people who believe they are above the law, and who use every illogical distortion of the regulations to justify their use of an illegal piece of equipment. Ref my comment about reversing a trailer, I merely read the comments made by vanners who admit they have trouble in reversing and using trailers. As I said, it's my opinion, and I don't need to justify it, but regardless of whether you can reverse an A frame or not, they are still not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjphillips Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Ignoring whether A frames are legal or not,some time ago I asked if it was possible to reverse a car on an A frame with a degree of control in the direction one wished to go but nobody came back with an answer at all,as you sound to be an authority on reversing large & small could you tell me the answer to that question please.As a point of interest after considering all the facts I bought a double axel trailer & certainly have no regrets since ,it is reasonably controllable when reversing .I was informed by an artic driver that in actual fact it was easier to reverse the artic than a motorhome with a trailer because of the geometry of the unit ie the short tractor unit with a long trailer as apposed to a motorhome of which have very long overhangs behind the rear axel.!! >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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