"Le Cube" gas bottles

[crob]

I read in ?Caravan Club magazine recently about "Le Cube" gas bottles that are available in France. I seem to recollect that if you buy one of these bottles, together with the correct regulator, you can use this in your older motorhome i.e. those with a flexible hose from the regulator to the gas pipe in the locker. This means that you will never run out of gas - in France! At present, I carry a couple of empty Camping Gaz bottles, just in case.

 

Am I correct in this understanding? Can these bottles be bought elsewhere in Europe, or are they only available in France? We go abroad for 3-4 months, and whilst we travel through France on out way out and back again, we do have long periods out of that country. I could travel out with just one Calor bottle and buy a "Le Cube" bottle on our journey out through France, but only if it can be exchanged in other European countries.

 

I am confident that amongst you motorcaravanners there will be someone who has already used these bottles and can give expert advice!

 

Thanking you in anticipation.

 

Colin Robinson.

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

Short answer Is "Dunno".

 

But I bought a couple of bottles in France, which I think were Le Cube, about €50 for pair including free regulator. But the regulator won't fit my Calor bottles, so there was a bit of cutting and Jubilee Clipping.

 

I think that no EU regulator will fit a UK bottle, and vice-versa. Please somebody, come up with a solution. Possibly, just possibly, Camping Gaz is international, does anybody know? Gaz bottles can be bought from Intermarche, but seen to be about €5 more that Le Cube (about €12 exchange).

 

Come on, surely somebody can think of a viable solution

[zulurita]

We bought a Le cube with its regulator. I then bought some tubing and attached it to new regulator in mh and it worked fine. We have the bulkhead Truma regulator that is fixed in our new MH. I haven't used it last couple of years but as the new MH gas locker can only take 13kg x 1 and 6kg x 1 instead of two 13kg in previous MH we might have to start using it again.

[Brian Kirby]

crob - 2008-01-04 11:30 AM I read in ?Caravan Club magazine recently about "Le Cube" gas bottles that are available in France. I seem to recollect that if you buy one of these bottles, together with the correct regulator, you can use this in your older motorhome i.e. those with a flexible hose from the regulator to the gas pipe in the locker. This means that you will never run out of gas - in France! At present, I carry a couple of empty Camping Gaz bottles, just in case. Am I correct in this understanding? Can these bottles be bought elsewhere in Europe, or are they only available in France? We go abroad for 3-4 months, and whilst we travel through France on out way out and back again, we do have long periods out of that country. I could travel out with just one Calor bottle and buy a "Le Cube" bottle on our journey out through France, but only if it can be exchanged in other European countries. I am confident that amongst you motorcaravanners there will be someone who has already used these bottles and can give expert advice! Thanking you in anticipation. Colin Robinson.

Best place to start is the size of bottle your gas locker will take.  If it will take two 13Kg bottles it would be cheaper take a 13Kg UK Calor (or similar) and buy a French 13Kg as you pass through.  Since so many European journeys involve at least dipping into France, exchanging the French bottle on a future trip is not too onerous and, when the UK bottle runs out, that is easily changed while in UK.  However, if your locker won't take 13Kg bottles, you are faced with much more frequent changes, and things don't work so well. 

So far as I am aware, Camping Gaz is the only bottle that can be exchanged across Euro frontiers, but they are expensive compared to any others. 

A standard French 13Kg cylinder (several brands, Primagaz, Butagaz, Totalgaz, Antargaz: butane or propane) is about 600mm high and 310mm diameter and weighs around 25Kg full (13Kg gas).  There are then Twiny, Le Cube and Viseo bottles.

Twiny (Primagaz) is 310mm diameter and 310mm tall, weighs 13Kg full of which 5.1Kg is gas.  These are designed to allow stacking, in which condition both can be connected - i.e "on line".  Propane or Butane.  Similar bottles are marketed by Elf-Antar (Elfi) and Totalgaz (Malice).

Le Cube (Butagaz) is approximately 285mm square by 355mm high.  Weighs 14Kg full, of which 7 Kg is gas.  Propane or Butane.

Viseo (Butagaz) is squarish, about 310mm wide by 500mm high.  Weighs 16.5Kg full, of which 10Kg is gas.  It has a semi transparent panel in the side allowing the gas level to be seen.  It is butane only at present.

Can't advise availability of the tiddlers, but the 13Kg are widely available from supermarkets and filling stations.  Butagaz seems to be very widely available across France, as does Primagaz.  Totalgaz and Antargaz are less widely distributed, usually through their respective chains of filling stations.

You might find things a bit easier if you installed a fixed 30mbar regulator in your gas locker in lieu of the bottle mounted regulators.  You can then just swap the pigtails to suit the different bottles.  The UK Propane is the trick pigtail, the French Propane connection is the same as UK Butane connection.  As with UK, whichever brand you get it cannot (legally) be refilled, only exchanged, and you cannot swap one brand's bottle at another brand's outlet.

Hope this helps.

[bob b]

I think if I were abroad for that length of time, I would go for a fixed LPG tank or refillables.

[Derek Uzzell]

These are some earlier forum threads that may be of interest:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8117&posts=28

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6550&posts=16

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4262&posts=11

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2819&posts=1

 

A Le Cube container's gas capacity is actually 5kg(propane) or 6kg(butane).

 

Received wisdom is that a leisure-vehicle gas system that uses a 28mbar(butane) or 37mbar(propane) 'on-bottle' regulator should NOT be converted to use a 30mbar regulator ('fixed' or on-bottle) instead. The justification for this advice is that conversion to 30mbar introduces an unknown factor as to whether appliances (heaters, ovens, fridges, etc.) designed for the 28mbar/37mbar standard will function safely at a 30mbar pressure, particularly regarding correct gas combustion.

[Bill Ord]

I use Le Cube while in France and like the fact that it is available at more outlets than any other brand and it is available in Butane and Propane. The 13kg bottles work out cheaper but for me it was a case of horses for courses. One other thing that may only apply to me was the ability to store my hose, toilet chemical and other soft items in the gas locker on top of the Le cube. You will be given free or very cheap a regulator for the Le Cube, in November the deposit on Le cube was only 5 euros.

Bill Ord

[Basil]

Reference Brians part of post

 

""You might find things a bit easier if you installed a fixed 30mbar regulator in your gas locker in lieu of the bottle mounted regulators. You can then just swap the pigtails to suit the different bottles. The UK Propane is the trick pigtail, the French Propane connection is the same as UK Butane connection. As with UK, whichever brand you get it cannot (legally) be refilled, only exchanged, and you cannot swap one brand's bottle at another brand's outlet.

 

Hope this helps.""

 

And

 

Derek Uzzell - 2008-01-05 8:42 AM

Received wisdom is that a leisure-vehicle gas system that uses a 28mbar(butane) or 37mbar(propane) 'on-bottle' regulator should NOT be converted to use a 30mbar regulator ('fixed' or on-bottle) instead. The justification for this advice is that conversion to 30mbar introduces an unknown factor as to whether appliances (heaters, ovens, fridges, etc.) designed for the 28mbar/37mbar standard will function safely at a 30mbar pressure, particularly regarding correct gas combustion.

 

Derek is quite correct that you should not change to 30mb,(not good practise if the appliances are not 30mb rated) however there would be no problem changing to Gaslows bulkhead mounted regulators of the appropriate pressure rating, available in both Butane or Propane, that also allow the use of 'pig tails' so possibly help with the question.

 

Bas

 

[Guest Tracker]

All makes sense as long as the appropriate pigtail for connecting to a bulkhead regulator is available at, or close to, the same sites as the French gas bottles and 'bottle fitted' regulators?

 

Or, if we are positive that it will fit, buy a UK butane pigtail before leaving home?

 

Assuming that to be the case I would be inclined to go for the most widely available French exchange bottle, having left home with just one full Calor bottle on board, and buy a French bottle as soon as possible after arriving in France to conserve the Calor?

 

I suppose the same theory applies to Spain re gas bottles and pigtails but does anyone know whether the UK pigtails will fit Spanish, or any other country's bottles?

 

As 'vans are sold all over Europe I guess a pigtail relevant to that country should, in theory, be available at caravan accessory shops in each country?

 

I doubt the market is large enough for anyone to make and sell an adapter to fit twixt a UK pigtail and the bottles specific to each country?

 

Would seem to be the most cost effective way to solve the gas problem?

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-01-05 8:42 AM ..............Received wisdom is that a leisure-vehicle gas system that uses a 28mbar(butane) or 37mbar(propane) 'on-bottle' regulator should NOT be converted to use a 30mbar regulator ('fixed' or on-bottle) instead. The justification for this advice is that conversion to 30mbar introduces an unknown factor as to whether appliances (heaters, ovens, fridges, etc.) designed for the 28mbar/37mbar standard will function safely at a 30mbar pressure, particularly regarding correct gas combustion.

Quite correct.  Thanks Derek.  Looking back, I realise I omitted the caution to check the suitability of the existing appliances for 30 mbar operation before altering their operating pressure.

Basil's alternative seems the better solution, though, so that the existing system operating pressure/fuel can be maintained.  Thank you Basil/Gaslow. 

Gaslow also do a neat little automatic changeover valve, with indicator, so that you wouldn't need to paddle outside in the middle of a wet night when the service bottle runs out.

[Derek Uzzell]

Gaslow's product brochure defines which of their 'pigtails' will be needed to fit particular countries' gas bottles. So, if we start with the pigtail that will screw on to a UK 4.5kg Calor butane bottle, this will attach directly to any French bottle (butane or propane) having the traditional French threaded connection. The same pigtail can be used with 20mm or 27mm clip-on adapters, or with a 'Jumbo' adapter, to connect to other French bottles and to gas containers marketed in Spain, Portugal, Southern Ireland or Norway. An adapter for Campingaz bottles can also be fitted to this pigtail. It would seem from the Gaslow brochure that connecting to an Italian bottle would require a different pigtail, but this could also be used with Greek bottles. Sweden requires a unique pigtail, while a pigtail suitable for connection to a German bottle will also fit Dutch bottles.

 

My own gut-feeling is that, if your motorhome has a system with a UK 28mbar or 37mbar regulator attaching directly to the gas bottle, then maximum flexibility abroad is likely to be obtained by just replacing the UK regulator with the appropriate 'foreign' 28mbar or 37mbar regulator. If you modify the system to include a 28mbar or 37mbar fixed regulator, then you'll be restricting yourself to either butane or propane. My experience (in France) is that, while it's easy to lay one's hands on a propane or butane on-bottle regulator (sold in most supermarkets and hardware stores), it's a lot harder to obtain a pigtail as these are normally only available from caravan/motorhome dealerships. It will also be the case that, although you may well get a cheap/free regulator as part of the deal when you obtain a foreign gas bottle, you won't get a cheap/free pigtail.

 

Adapters are available to convert regulators/pigtails from one national standard to another - for example, to allow a French bottle to be used on a leisure-vehicle having a German or UK(propane) system, or to use certain non-French bottles on a leisure-vehicle having a French system. Caravan Club members may also remember, some months back, an advert in the CC magazine offering a set of adapters that would convert a UK regulator or pigtail with the traditional POL propane threaded connector to permit a range of foreign bottles to be employed. The adapter-set was not cheap (about £100 I think) and, despite claiming universality, certainly wouldn't cover all the gas bottles marketed outside the UK.

 

As long as motorcaravanners are aware of the potential problems they face if they need to obtain gas abroad, then they can pick an appropriate strategy. What this will be will depend on various criteria (your motorhome's gas system, its gas-locker capacity, the countries you intend to visit, how long you will be abroad, whether you use 230V hook-ups, whether you winter or summer camp, etc.) and personal preference. Bill Ord's use of Le Cube would suit me too, but I actually employ a refillable bottle that's a hang-over from my previous motorhome into which a Le Cube wouldn't fit.

[Bill Ord]

It's interesting that Derek Uzzell thinks that appliances have been designed to run on the 30mb regulator. My own Rapido 2005 924F has appliances that seem to be over fulled on Butane as they will leave a sooty deposit when running on this fuel but burn cleanly on Propane. I cannot but think that 30mb is a compromise that enables both fuels to be used but neither is correct.

Bill Ord

[crob]

Thanks for all your responses. I knew that there was a sackful of knowledge on this subject! I'm not sure about all those pigtails, though. Is that the length of hose that couples the regulator to the pipe in the gas locker? Or is it some other technical piece of wizardry that I am unaware of?

 

It seems that I stick to plan A, as Le Cube is only available in France, then.

 

Colin.

[Basil]

Hi crob,

 

Not quite, the 'pigtail' is the term given to the preproduced length of pipe that is connected between the cylinder and the more modern type of fixed regulator. That is the modern system does not have the regulator on the cylinder but has it fixed to the motorhome, normally on the adjacent bulkhead, and then the 'pigtail' is a high pressure hose that transports the gas from the cylinder to the regulator, hence you can see that with this type of system ANY type of cylinder may be used with a pigtail having an appropriate cylinder end connection, all regulator end connections being the same.

Hope that clarifies.

 

Bas

[SID RAT]

Hi Colin

 

I think I have a Cube tucked away which I can't use - no room. I'm in West Sussex, if you're in this area you are welcome to have it and try it out. Not sure I could send it through the post.

 

Patrick

[crob]

Patrick,

 

Thanks for your generous offer. Unfortunately West Sussex is not generally on our itinery - but you never know!

 

Colin.

[Derek Uzzell]

A follow-up to Bill Ord's comments...

 

My previous motorhome was a 1996-built Herald with the 'old' UK-standard gas system employing an on-bottle regulator (28mbar pressure for butane or 37mbar for propane) that connected to the vehicle's metal gas pipework with a flexible hose. I contemplated altering the system to use a bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator with a flexible 'pigtail' connecting to the gas bottle.

 

Despite repeated warnings in the leisure-vehicle press that this plan was unwise, I didn't think it would cause genuine difficulties. There were a couple of reasons for this view. The first was that Truma had (for a good few years before UK-built motorhomes had 30mbar systems) been marketing in the UK the "Triomatic" automatic bottle-changeover system. This was based round a 30mbar regulator (the German-standard pressure) and, although Truma's installation instructions advised that Triomatic should only be fitted to leisure-vehicles with gas appliances designed for 30mbar, I knew this caveat hadn't stopped the system being installed by DIY-inclined motorcaravanners. In fact, in 1999, MMM itself had published a 'motorhome-improvement' article that had involved fitting Triomatic to a mature Autoquest that plainly would have had a 28/37mbar system. No mention had been made in the article about gas pressure incompatibility and, as there had been nothing later about consequential problems, I assumed there hadn't been any.

 

The second reason was that, when I checked the specifications for the Herald's heater, hob, oven and fridge, all except the last had gas-pressure tolerance-ranges for butane and propane that would easily include the use of either gas at 30mbar. Only the Electrolux fridge seemed to be specifically designed for 28mbar/butane or 37mbar/propane with a different fridge-model variation being specified for 30mbar. I asked Electrolux(HQ) what the significant differences were between the two models, but never found out. (Contact a UK Electrolux agent...yeah, yeah, yeah!) Anyway, it seemed evident that the majority of gas appliances marketed for leisure vehicles were already designed to work satisfactorily within a fairly wide gas-pressure range, which is, presumably, why the 30mbar compromise standard could easily be adopted. However, as I eventually decided not to bother modifying the Herald's gas system, I've no certain way of knowing whether changing to 30mbar would have had repercussions.

 

When I used butane (at 28mbar) on the Herald, sooty deposits formed on the hob trivets and on the bases of cooking pans, but this stopped when I changed to propane (at 37mbar). My current Hobby has a 30mbar system and I normally use autogas. In the UK this is 100% propane, but in France it's a mix of propane and butane with (at least during summer) butane predominating. Whatever the nationality of the autogas, it doesn't produce 'sooting' on the Hobby's hob rings or on cooking-pan bases. That's just an observation and I don't think it necessarily proves anything.

 

Don't forget that the 30mbar 'compromise' pressure relates solely to leisure vehicles. It doesn't apply to domestic appliances (room heaters, mobile home central heating, etc.) which still require a 28mbar or 37mbar regulator according to whether (respectively) butane or propane is used.