Anyone had this problem with a Fiat 2.8JTD?

[Vernon B]

Yesterday I had some periodic maintenance done on my van. Its on a Fiat 2.8JTd registered in May 2003 and has done 35k miles.

 

On picking it up I was told that a bracket retaining a metal coolant pipe that runs across the top of the engine had fractured. The implication was that the unsupported pipe was likely to vibrate and eventually leak. Unfortunately I wasn't able to discuss the seriousness of the matter with the technician at the time and simply asked them to order the parts.

 

Since this work will cost £125 I thought I'd better take a look at the thing in the daylight this morning. Sure enough there's a pretty thick (15-20mm dia) pipe running over the rocker box which connects with rubber hoses on either side of the engine. I can't see any signs of the offending bracket although things are pretty cluttered down there and the problem may well have become apparent when the technician was changing the timing belt.

 

There is some play in the pipe and I'm sure it could be better secured but arguably some movement in unison with the rubber hoses might be a good thing - and perhaps the assembly being too rigid was the reason for the bracket fracturing in the first place.

 

My guess is that most of the £125 will be taken up by labour and VAT but I just wonder if a strategically positioned cable strap will do the job instead. I will be checking this over with the garage (which is first rate and I have complete faith in) before commissioning the work but has anyone else had this problem or have any thoughts? I have to say that £125 against the possibility of the radiator overheating at 6,000 feet some where in the wilds is a no brainer but ...?

 

 

As an aside there's been a recent thread on the cost of replacing timing belts on this engine. For what it's worth Platts (Stoke on Trent) charged me £221.29 labour, £35.54 for the belt, and £44.94 VAT = £301.77

 

Vernon

 

[Don Madge]

Hi Vernon,

 

My Timberland is the same age as your van and has done 51,000 miles. I checked the pipe and mine looks Ok there is play in it but one would expect that.

 

I was very interested in your cam belt change.

 

My mechanical knowledge is almost zero but I'm lucky having a little man down the road who does my jobs for me.

 

Before I got the cam belt changed I was advised by either George Collings or Dave Newell to get the pulleys changed as well, also the alternator belt.

 

So my breakdown on cost was

 

Gates Powergrip Kit £123.86

Alternator belt £13.66

Labour charge £125.00

VAT £45.94

 

Total £308.46

 

Regards

 

Don

 

 

[Globetrotter]

I had a complete cambelt kit fitted by my trusted local garage in Walsall for £230 inclusive. Admittedly, mine is a 2.5, but I suspect there is little difference. It also took him a fair bit longer than usual because my A class has very restricted underbonnet access.

[malc d]

Vernon and Don

As I have a 2.8JTD I will be checking this pipe as well -- thanks for the info.

 

At what mileage did you get cam-belts changed ?

My van has just come up to 27000.

 

Cheers

[Vernon B]

malc d - 2008-01-09 4:56 PM

 

Vernon and Don

As I have a 2.8JTD I will be checking this pipe as well -- thanks for the info.

 

At what mileage did you get cam-belts changed ?

My van has just come up to 27000.

 

Cheers

 

With the average miles we do the timing belt change is more a matter of age than distance travelled. In my handbook it actually says every 4 years but I think this has now been revised to every 5 years. My 'van will be 5 years old in May - seemed a good compromise.

 

The reference above about changing other belts is good advice - I wish I'd thought about it.

 

Vernon

 

Vernon

[Don Madge]

Hi Malc,

 

Mine was changed at 47,500 miles Fiat recommend 5 years or 72,000 miles I think the mileage is correct, the five years is.

 

There's not many motorhomes do that mileage in five years.

 

I also had the brake fluid changed on the last service as well.

 

Don

 

 

[Robinhood]

My two-year old van had a problem reported with this coolant pipe at second service, and was repaired under warranty.

 

I'd normally want to know all the details, but since it didn't cost me anything, I didn't pursue details, so I'm not sure whether it was the bracket that was broken, or that it was already leaking.

 

The pipe over the rocker box was certainly replaced.

 

It was serviced at Brownhills 8-) and I was quoted (as I remember) somewhere in the same region as £125 until the penny dropped that the registration number didn't apply to the year of first registration, and it was still under warranty.

 

To be fair, I got the call seeking authority to go ahead fairly late in the day, and it was still repaired for free in time for me to pick up.

[Vernon B]

Certainly looks as if you had exactly the same problem robin. I'd be interested to know if you'd noticed any loss of coolant prior to Brownhills identifying the problem and also how long ago the pipe was replaced?

 

Given the fact that both of our vehicles suffered this fate after a relatively short period in service it will be interesting to see if there are any other casualties out there.

 

Vernon

[Robinhood]

As stated, the vehicle was almost exactly two years old when the work was done (second service).

 

Up until a fairly short period before, there was no sign of coolant loss. (it's something I check regularly because the level was on minimum when I took delivery, and I topped it up myself and subsequently kept an eye on it. I've got an auxiliary heater tee'd off the main cooling circuit, as on my previous 'van, and they're notoriously difficult to fill all the way through without running the engine and repeatedly topping up to get rid of any air-lock).

[John H]

Hi Globetrotter,

 

Sorry to wander off thread but who did you use in Walsall to fit your cambelt? I had my final warranty service done in October by a well known Fiat agent in Oldbury. They managed to wreck my rear bumper and it was a pain in the bum to get them to put it right. It's ok now but I'll never go back to them to have any work done. I live in Pelsall and work in Walsall so it would be a lot more convenient for any future services/repairs.

 

John.

[JohnP]

I had a 2004 Hymer on a Fiat 2.8. This suffered the same problem with the coolent pipe which runs over the engine. The mounting bracket broke off in about 2500 miles but this was not the weld itself. Could be a design problem.

[Globetrotter]

John H

You have PM.

[Totallyidle]

I am paying Main Dealer prices for servicing and they are really hurting I think the CV joint may be on the way out so I need to sort the van out before we can get off.

 

I am on an 02 2.8JTD with 42,000 on the clock

 

I live in North Wales and my nearest dealer is in Stoke. Going down as far as the Midlands would not bother me.

 

I think I want to start looking around any one got any recommendations.

[Vernon B]

JohnP - 2008-01-09 10:58 PM

 

I had a 2004 Hymer on a Fiat 2.8. This suffered the same problem with the coolent pipe which runs over the engine. The mounting bracket broke off in about 2500 miles but this was not the weld itself. Could be a design problem.

 

For the sake of providing a "complete story" for future search references I can now report that Platts have called be to say that they now have the pipe in stock - 3 days turn round - Fiat parts availability pretty good eh!

 

Anyway I raised the issue of whether a simplier (cable tie fix) might do the job and, perhaps not surprisingly, was told that this pipe and the bracket formed an integral part of the cooling system and without it problems were bound to result.

 

Apparently it is not unusual for the bracket to fail but not a common occurence. My van has done 35,000 miles others have done far less.

 

Those of you that have examined the part might be surprised that it costs £75.00 (inc VAT) - fitting takes only 1 hour hence the total of £125.00

 

Platts are keen to show me the problem when I take the van in on the 21 Jan and I'll report back on what I find.

 

Vernon.

[Vernon B]

As promised a line or two to complete this little story.

 

Platts replaced the pipe yesterday. It took just one hour, they appear to have done a first class job and have eased £125 from my wallet.

 

Having had a chat with the mechanic I think this is something 2.8JTD (and probably other Fiat engine) owners should keep any eye - the problem isn't obvious.

 

As previously explained this coolant pipe (Fiat part 13394557080) runs across the top of the engine and is clearly visible. The broken bracket is on the right hand side of this pipe as you look into the engine bay. It is just beneath another bracket, at the end of the pipe, that holds a plastic hose clip.

 

Unfortunately it is difficult to see precisely where the bracket is attached to the engine block and even more difficult to see if it is broken. In contrast, the fixing of the bracket holding the left hand end of the pipe is clearly visible.

 

The mechanic told me they "get quite a few of these in" and I suspect there are many more engines out there with broken brackets.

 

So what I hear you say? Well I'm not exactly sure. Platts say that if left in this state the pipe will vibrate badly and ultimately cause the engine coolant to leak and I guess they have a point. The bracket is 22mm wide and 2mm thick. Mine appears to have sheared rather than been broken by a repetative bending motion so the stresses involved would have been very great - certainly great enough to have ripped a hole in the pipe had the breakage occurred where the bracket is welded to the pipe. There's then the question of what stresses are placed on the remaining bracket and what happens if or when that goes.

 

So I think it's worth checking occasionally. Although you can't get a good view of things the pipe should be held tight across the engine - any movement you can feel at the right hand end will indicate that the bracket has broken and your cooling system may be vunerable.

 

V.

 

 

 

 

[euroserv]

We are a vehicle rental firm in Leicester and have owned around 100 Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD's from new to 120 to 180000m. This coolant pipe used to be a rubber hose and was not therefore fixed to the engine. It never failed. In about 2001 the pipe was changed to a solid steel one, fixed at the cambelt end to a bracket, and floating at the gearbox end. This rather riddicuous modification has resulted in 20 to 25 cases of broken pipes, probably 10 of which have involved coolant loss, none catastrophically so, but it could happen. As a precaution on all of the vans we purchased from 2004 to 2006 we cut through the bracket leaving the pipe free to float around and not be stressed by anything. (Just make sure you file away any sharp edges.) We always would rather prevent a problem than lose the vehicle for a few days while a warranty claim is processed.

 

I should also add that in all our years of operating Fiat vans, we have never had a cam belt failure. We always change them on time and have never even witnessed any undue wear to the belt. HOWEVER... We have experienced issues with tensioners and idler bearings and would advise that the correct bearings and tensioners are always changed with the cam belt, and should you hear any rattles or whining noises, get someone to have a look and make sure you have not got any prematurely worn bearings. Hope this is helpful

[Vernon B]

Many thanks for that info euroserv. As I suspected this issue might have a history and the need for a replacement may not be quite as clear cut as would appear. The way "mods" develop, it wouldn't surprise me if the steel pipe was introduced as a means of simplifying things on the assemby line rather than anything else!

 

I note that you say the pipe is only fixed at the cam belt end but I'm pretty sure mine has brackets at both ends. Only having one fixing would certainly invite a failure because the pipe would effectively act as a long lever on that fixing. I'll double check my set-up in the daylight tomorrow.

 

With your "fleet" experience I think you're going to make a lot of friends quickly on this forum!!!

 

V

[euroserv]

Sir, you have a point and I stand corrected. There is a bracket at the other end as well, but these only last 5 minutes as opposed to the 20 minutes that the aforementioned 'cam belt end' bracket survives. The re-design serves no useful purpose that we can see, and obviously costs more to do. This was from the pre-recovery era at Fiat and is best forgotten!

 

I think sometimes it's best to excuse a bit of silly design and be thankful that the problem is easily visible and relatively easy to fix. In this respect I have found Fiat much more user friendly than blue ovals or three pointed stars.

 

Nick

[Vernon B]

Mmmmm bu*g*r Thought I was OK when I found that both ends were fixed on mine Nick but thanks for the info - forewarned is forearmed, I'll be keeping an eye on it. If it does fracture that quickly it will be interesting to see what Platt's reaction is - watch this space.

 

V