Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[fred grant]

an we don wan the bleddy lanes blocked in cornwall with failed ducatos this summer me ansums. fred an is biddies ev got work to do. be warned. us will not tow u out. maybe for a kings ransom maybe, but depends on what king you subscribes to my luvvers.

 

fetchitfred

[michele]

Fred where is Penpillick ?

[Basil]

That is good news Andy, I hope that MMM can redeem themselves a bit they did at least allow some mention in the last mag didn't they?

 

Bas

[thamesist]

Hi All

Having said the problem had disappeared two weeks ago (Boxer 2.2, 100bhp), it's back and meaning it! I must have been giving it more revs which, admittedly makes a big difference but I tried this morning and it juddered until I put my foot down. I will be onto Peugeot next week so for no reports, read one!

Have a good Easter

Best Wishes

 

Alan Seldon

[RoyH]

Well done Andy, seems like you are getting somewhere at last.

 

Michelle. I don't know if Fred actually lives there but there is a Penpillick, it is on a very steep hill with emergency lanes to run into if your brakes fail, on the A390 in Cornwall. This the road from Lostwithiel to St Austell just before you come to Tywardreath Highway near St Blazey. I know all this because until 2 years ago I lived in Par and from my back garden on one hill I could see Penpillick hill across the valley. I do miss Cornwall but it's to far away from everywhere else.

 

Sorry everybody, a bit off topic but I thought I would help Michele out.

[PSHORT]

I am concerned because there are no hills near me to try the reversing up a steep gradient. I am more concerned that I may have to go back yet again for a future recall. My grumble is after paying 50k for a new motorhome that to find a Fiat Service Centre that offers a courtesy car or collection/delivery service is almost impossible. For work of a magnitude such as gearbox work the vehicle needs to go to a commercial service centre.These are often away from public transport and one should not need to call on friends for transport.

If one bought a 50K Fiat car I am sure a coutesy service would be available.

The worst response I had was from a Fiat Commercial Service centre in Southampton who admitted they had coutesy cars but when I said the work was for a 'recall' I was told all the courtsey cars were unavailable for the forseeable future. Eventually after many phone calls Fiat UK did arrange a hire car for me which worked very well. BUT have I got to through it all again, I bet I have.

[PSHORT]

I am concerned because there are no hills near me to try the reversing up a steep gradient. I am more concerned that I may have to go back yet again for a future recall. My grumble is after paying 50k for a new motorhome that to find a Fiat Service Centre that offers a courtesy car or collection/delivery service is almost impossible. For work of a magnitude such as gearbox work the vehicle needs to go to a commercial service centre.These are often away from public transport and one should not need to call on friends for transport.

If one bought a 50K Fiat car I am sure a coutesy service would be available.

The worst response I had was from a Fiat Commercial Service centre in Southampton who admitted they had coutesy cars but when I said the work was for a 'recall' I was told all the courtsey cars were unavailable for the forseeable future. Eventually after many phone calls Fiat UK did arrange a hire car for me which worked very well. BUT have I got to through it all again, I bet I have.

[fred grant]

i am concerned my biddies as a certain number of forum members seem to be blaming mmm and other people for there fiat problems. its what me ol mate denzil calls the blame society and is a bit frightening when u think it out properly.

so, if any fiat brakes down on penpillick hill this summer me ansums this is advance warning. FRED OR PENBERTHY WILL NOT BRING UP THERE TRACTERS TO RESCUE U FOR NO KINGS RANSOM. fred will not be blamed for your problems in cornwall, or anywhere else cum to think about it. go an blame sumone else my luvvers. an don start on alice as she sort u out.

 

forsoothfred

[fred grant]

i am concerned my biddies as a certain number of forum members seem to be blaming mmm and other people for there fiat problems. its what me ol mate denzil calls the blame society and is a bit frightening when u think it out properly.

so, if any fiat brakes down on penpillick hill this summer me ansums this is advance warning. FRED OR PENBERTHY WILL NOT BRING UP THERE TRACTERS TO RESCUE U FOR NO KINGS RANSOM. fred will not be blamed for your problems in cornwall, or anywhere else cum to think about it. go an blame sumone else my luvvers. an don start on alice as she sort u out.

 

forsoothfred

[AndyStothert]

Why are we getting two of everything?

Why are we getting two of everything?

 

Obviously I have a reason, what with all the juddering, and everything.

 

Tonight's little titbit concerns Bryan Whitehurst who has a juddering Dethleffs A697, and is equipped with that ridiculously powerful 3 litre engine, so I presume it's a big posh motorhome which cost him a tidy penny or three.

He took it in to the local Fiat garage for a service and he insisted that they test it, as he wasn't very happy about the juddering in reverse. Like the rest of us, he stupidly imagined that severe juddering was a sign that things weren't perhaps working in perfect harmony, and that, given time, something is bound to break.

When he picked it up his invoice has a hand written note on the bottom stating 'normal judder in reverse'.

 

Since when has a dementedly jumping engine and gearbox been 'normal'.

 

But fear not oh worried owners, for this is just a 'characteristic' of the vehicle, and should anything break (again) Fiat have assured me that it will be replaced under warranty.

They were a little more reticent to commit themselves about broken gearboxes and clutches when the warranty had expired, and remember, the clutch isn't coverd after two years.

The clock is ticking quite fast for many of us. Is yours?

If you haven't tried reversing your 2007- on Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill yet and you're wishing I'd stop bleating on about it then fine, stick your head in the sand. That way you'll never hear bad news.

But it'll still be there waiting for you on some inconvenient hill and possibly when the warranty has expired, which remember is only two years on some components.

So go and try it on a 1 in 5.

Then when you've done it, and it will judder, go and whinge at Fiat officially. Then email me, and if we get enough folk complaining, despite Fiats (and Peugeot's) dishonesty we may get something done.

[AndyStothert]

testing, testing, 1 2 3.

 

Have you still not reversed your Ducato or Boxer (2007 on models) up a steep hill?

 

[AndyStothert]

The campaign to get Fiat to take even the slightest bit of notice of its frustrated customers has stepped up a gear or two (with just a little light juddering) within the last few days with Dave Newell plugging the problem in Practical Motorhome, 'Gentleman Jack' (I don't think I'm allowed to divulge his true idenitity) giving it space in 'Motor Caravanner', which is 'out soon', and a letter from myself appearing in MMM.

What we're up against is more organised than I thought. It seems that folk have been complaining to their local Fiat garage about the juddering, and a few about that thumping underneath when the engine fires first on start-up, but it's looking like the garages have been briefed on how to fob everybody off without it becoming an official complaint.

And after all if the dealer tells you its nothing to worry about, and you don't know any different, well why go looking for problems?

I've had two emails today from owners who have been politely treated to a very slick brush off, and as they have no experience of the oily bits, no idea that the judder can get as bad as it does on steep gradients, nor that this can ruin clutches and gearboxes, thay have gone away thinking that Fiat know best.

The truth seems to be that once they have our money they aren't bothered about looking after the customer.

And this also applies to the major motorhome manufacturers - they are now well aware of this issue and continue to sell a product which they know to be, at best, flawed.

It's a month since our van went in for Fiat to 'test' again, and they are still refusing to say what conclusions they have arrived at. I've asked them to tell me whether they think it is defective, or not. Yes or no? And they won't.

The fact is that if they admit a single one is defective they admit that they all are. Every single Ducato, Boxer, and Relay which has come out of that factory, and are still coming out, will be by their own admission, defective. That's what happens when you call a defect a 'characteristic' of the vehicle.

I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with this in the end, when you consider the consequences for Fiat (et al) if we do, but we aren't going to give in quietly to corporate corruption, and big business bullying.

 

So if you still don't believe that big business can be so corrupt and that your 2007 onwards Ducato or Boxer camper/motorhome is not at risk of ruining its gearbox or clutch whilst reversing up a steep hill, well what have you got to lose from trying it?

When you have, email me with the result. If it doesn't judder we can get Fiat to tell us why it hasn't got the normal characteristics of the vehicle.

But enough rambling, even though it's too early for the Scotch (Talisker tonight), and little Fag Ash hasn' yet returned from the football.

 

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[AndyStothert]

Fred,

Where are you when all around are juddering mad.

 

[RoyH]

It's Saturday. It's Alice's weekly service day.

[joiner]

Well done Andy. It`s a good job that somebody has the balls to keep at Fiat about this issue.

By the way I live about 20 miles from the Glenfiddoch, and Macallan stills ( and a good few others ). I will send you a bottle of each if you can get any action out of Fiat ( promise )

[Den]

what about the law it must be fit for the purpose it was sold and intended for ....this is back to where you made the purchase......

[Usinmyknaus]

Fiat should wake up to the damage done to their brand name by selling an obviously defective product and more importantly, the shoddy way they appear to be treating their disgruntled customers. In my experience a company's actions when something goes wrong is rather more memorable than an instance where everything goes well. I have a long memory for such things, for example I have boycotted IKEA for more than 20 years after an incident of exceptionally poor service.

 

Fiat should bear in mind that many people who have followed this appalling story will empathise very strongly with those who have shelled out their hard-earned cash in skip loads to buy a "dream" product which turned out to be a nightmare. Am I likely to invest in a Fiat product come replacement van time? No chance! I expect many others will share that view.

 

Bob

[mickann]

Hi all you unlucky owners of the Fiat x250's.I have a Chausson Alegro 93 it has all the usual faults associated with Fiat base including the reversing judder. And Fiat are of no help other than to suggest when reversing the motorhome to follow the instructions according to their news service sheet,ie using high revs(BURN THE CLUTCH OUT!) And all this after their engineer (FIAT) had tested the motorhome.

It also seems strange to me that motorhome magazine's have not picked up on this reversing issue whils testing the Fiat based motorhomes.

MMM are currently testing a Chausson Alegro 93 on their 1year test and the issue has not been raised on any test on this vehicle up to this month.I wonder why?

[michele]

So Mick have you e mailed Andy ? I know he needs more people on his now long list .

[mickann]

Hi Michele I already have and he has my tales of misfortune,and has the support of another motorhomer.

[AndyStothert]

I think the reversing judder thing is now well and truly ingrained into all the motorhome testers minds now. The only ones I've not nagged at yet are Pete and Di Johnson, who, lucky bleeders, are presently incommunicado somewhere warm.

The folk who used the MMM Long Term Test Chausson, besides us, all used it quite briefly with a specific aim in mind. We had it first, and a bit longer then everybody else (whilst waiting for our new van) but to be honest, as I said, we found it too big to go where we like to go, and didn't like the layout, so it stood on the drive annoying me most of the time. I did pick up on the reversing judder, but thought it was just a one-off fault - until we started using our new van, and the penny then dropped that all might not be well.

But before anouncing to the world that I thought ALL our new motorhomes carried a defective gene (nobody greets

the bearer of bad news very kindly do they?) and before anybody could commit this thought to print, we had to be fairly sure that this was the case. Nobody else thought that a major manufacturer would risk putting a vehicle with such a basic defect onto the market, so the proposition wasn't warmly welcomed to start with.

And, like all the other dissatisfied owners, we messed about for a few months trying to talk to Fiat about a solution, before realising they were just messing us about.

Anyway, once we were sure about the defect being present on all of them, and becoming even more aware of what Fiat were intending to do about it (absolutely nothing) reluctantly I put all this on the forum.

Unfortunately I reckon it's going to take quite a fuss to get Fiat to rectify this because it is a basic and probably expensive fault which they have known about since before November 2006 - in fact before any were sold in this country.

A certain naivity, and the belief that human nature is good, probably delayed things a couple of months, as I still believed that Fiat would do the right thing. But they haven't.

 

If someone you know owns one of these late model Ducatos or Boxers (in your club, or rally group or whatever) spread the bad news a bit and ask them to try reversing up a steep hill.

 

And for those who own one of these Ducatos (or Boxers) and can't see yet what all the fuss is about, or that it is indeed an endemic fault on all vehicles, just ask yourself why Fiat haven't sorted it out for those who are complaining?

We are a bunch late middle age (or even less youthly) respectable, reasonably well-off folk who don't go out looking for hassle. All of us are experienced motorists who know when something isn't right, and Fiat are attempting to treat us like idiots. If they could have sorted it out easily then they would have.

And if this is the first time you've seen this forum or thread, and are wondering why some nutter keeps repeating the same insane rant for you to go and reverse your new Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill, just take the time to trawl back through it all.

Then go and try reversing it up a steep hill, and be (not pleasantly) surprised at what happens.

 

The email me with your conclusions

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

 

 

[scotchjock]

Another worrying fact arose yesterday after driving through a ford. As I changed gear, for the next couple of miles, there was judder (in a forward direction). It stopped, presumably when the water dried up in the clutch. This is a 2007 LWB Relay van. I will await the next heavy rain.

[joiner]

I have a late 2007 LWB Maxi Ducato, and the clutch action can be as bad in first as it is in reverse. The van runs at just short of gross weight all the time,and I have little faith in the clutch lasting very long.

Long live my old Transit 9 (it could gross 6.5 tons with a trailer and no problems)!!!

[Mel B]

I read an article in the April 2008 issue of Which Motorcaravan the other night, it was a comparison of island bed low profile vans, all built on the new Fiat Ducato, three were LWB and one a maxi LWB, three had the 3-litre 157 bhp versions and one 2.3 130 bhp version. All four had 6 speed gearboxes.

 

According to the write up by Michale Le Caplain ALL of them, yes, ALL of them, suffered from the judder in reverse gear. He goes on to say that he's noticed this in "not a few Sevel-underpinned motorhomes in recent months.".

 

So, it is being mentioned in the mags - how long can Fiat et al hold out pretending this is normal?

 

I know that MMM et al are now going to mention/or have mentioned it, but surely they must now do more than this? If not, then how can they realistically be telling us, the punters, the truth about these vehicles? Much emphasis is given to the writers in such journals as being 'real motorhome owners' or the like, well, it is now time for them to stand up for the people who support them by buying the magazine.

 

I understand that they have to be sure of their facts first, but enough is enough, how many people have to have a problem before it is taking seriously and investigated thoroughly as a major defect by the motorhome press?

[judderer]

Hello.

I am new to the forum

For what its worth, I think the silence of all connected with this fiasco speaks volumes (!)

The manufacturers,converters,dealers & press are perhaps frightened by the ramifications of admitting to a potentially flawed design.

If it were not a problem why not come out in the open (IE the press) and say so :-S

For us each end user its grief and a waste of a few tens of thousands of pounds!!

But historically problems of this magnitude and the costs associated with a massive recall or worse still grounds for refunds could & have sunk companies into the abyss.

So i ask myself why arent any finanancially associated companies taking this seriously *-)