Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Guest peter]

Shaun - 2008-03-27 10:00 PM

 

Once again, we have negative assertions as to future sales of Ducatos, etc. It's pure speculation as to what the market will be for any vehicle. Some of these comments are insulting to those who've bought Ducatos and are perfectly happy with them. I have one, I've reversed it up a steep incline and I couldn't get it to judder. I wouldn't swap it for anything else at the same price and I'm confident as one can be with any vehicle, as to its future value.

 

There can be no doubt that there is a judder problem for plenty of people with the Ducato and its stablemates, and there's no doubt that considerable effort is being made by the likes of Andy to have the problem acknowledged and resolved. But, meanwhile, to suggest that the market for motorhomes on this chassis, will decline or already has, because of people avoiding them... well, let's see some hard facts to back up that assertion, not speculation.

 

Shaun

Here's a hard fact. I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. How's that?.

[Gregory]

 

As I've previously stated I'm someone in the market for another van and as a VW fan, I was trying not to be so blinkered therefor considering other vehicle options. Now solely because of this thread, I know what I'm going to avoid.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone who has a Sevel, just trying to help the cause. If your van is okay that's great, it just so happens there appears to be a serious fault in many of these vehicles.

 

I've got nothing to gain by contacting Fiat, converters, clubs and mags as I have. I do it because people who share the same pastime, have parted with big bucks and don't have what they paid for, and but for this forum, I might have been among them. (just might though, I still like vee dubs)

 

Cheers,

 

Greg.

 

[PSHORT]

Has anybody had any input from the commercial/white van driver users of these vehicles?

The 'white van' driver is surley harder on gearboxes than we are.

If they have had problems and were brought into the frame Fiat would be more likely to take notice. Also there must be commercial uses of Fiat vans who are also motorcaravanners. Have we heard from anyone with that background?

[Tomo3090]

The problem that anyone arguing this with the vehicle manufacturers is that there doeasn't seem to be a great groudswell of complaint from anyone outside this forum, as far as can be seen. If you go by those voting on the other thread there are only 31 people experiencing "judder". Now I don't know how many people have these type of chassis compared to others, i.e. VW, Mercs, Fords etc so it's difficult to evaluate the size of the defect to say there will be a problem with future sales and re sales.

 

If the dealers and vehicle franchise outlets don't seem to be too concerned, and it's their profits at stake if people cancel orders or don't return, a large proportion of owners are having fairly trouble free motoring, it isn't a major safety factor and van sales are steady, which they are according to the magazines and web sites, then the manufacturers are hardly likely to admit failure and put themselves at risk financially by having to re-design or re-tool a gearbox in what is the best selling vehicle chassis and engine in the business.

 

Virtually all the vehicle manufacturers have people who have had lesser or greater faults. On the other large web site, Motorhome Facts there is virtually no mention of this problem, they are kicking up a stink about the water in the engine compartment issue but not this, so it is hardly surprising that there is no great panic in the industry at large.

 

If it happens to be your van that is affected, (and I might be in this position after May), then I can see why it is a big issue but then that is the case with anything you buy whether it is a motorhome or not.

 

I am NOT faulting Andys', or anyone elses commitment to this, or suggesting that there is no problem at all but there needs to be a more organised look at this before we all start spitting at each other!

[scotchjock]

As I posted earlier, the problem is occuring on my Citreon Relay LWB van, and also a colleague with the same van has the same judder. In my case, it is worse in extremely wet weather. The local main agent's service manager was less than sympathetic when I reported the fault, saying that no one else had complained. This I know to be incorrect.

[AndyStothert]

I've had an interesting email from a chap called Roberto Baldi in Italy. He is spearheading a campaign in Italy to attempt to get Fiat to address this problem which is exactly the same one as here - but more so. As here, the 6 speed models are the ones which are worst, but because the vehicle has been on sale for longer there they claim to know exactly what the problem is.

I shall let you know more details from Roberto when I've had a conversation with him, but from his brief email it is looking like the only fix would be a completely redesigned gearbox for the 6 speed models.

 

And about the posting from Shaun who says he hasn't any problems with his - I presume it's a 5 speed model. They are juddering, but not until an extreme hill is encountered. If it's a 6 speed model then he's either employed by Fiat, or hasn't tested it properly yet. We are now that certain of the facts. The 6 speed models are ALL seriouly flawed.

 

Sales will be affected in the end but how long it will take to show up is another matter.

However I and all the other discontents will be doing all we can to ENSURE sales of these base vehicles are very seriously affected unless Fiat/Peugeot come up with a satisfactory solution or extended warranty offer. And we have some quite high profile stunts and media offerings to come. If a cure isn't found these vehicles will be virtually unsaleable as second hand units, and that should worry everyone. No matter which model it is.

If you own one of these late model Ducatos or Boxers it really is in your own interests to acknowledge the grim truth - then complain to Fiat or Peugeot. That way if it fails just out of warranty at least there is the chance of getting some satisfaction from Fiat as it will be an ongoing case.

 

If you have a juddering Fiat or Peugeot and think you can help to get this sorted out (even if it just means swelling the ranks) email me

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

[Rayjsj]

PSHORT - 2008-03-28 10:07 AM

 

Has anybody had any input from the commercial/white van driver users of these vehicles?

The 'white van' driver is surley harder on gearboxes than we are.

If they have had problems and were brought into the frame Fiat would be more likely to take notice. Also there must be commercial uses of Fiat vans who are also motorcaravanners. Have we heard from anyone with that background?

 

 

 

How many 'White Van Men' do you see driving Fiat/Citroen/Peugeot X/250 Based Vans and small trucks ????? I counted 3 on the Long M4 drive back to West Wales, as opposed to 'Shed loads' (a Lot !!) of Merc.

Sprinters,Ford Transits and Renault Masters and Traffic's.

White Van man doesn't seem to like Fiat's at ANY price.

What does that say to you ???? they seem to to be a favourite for motorhome converters though , because they are Cheap.

Be Careful out there ! :D

[AndyStothert]

Roy, owner of the Citroen LWB van.

 

 

You are my worst nightmare. The task of getting Fiat and Peugeot to do anything is proving horrendous, so having a third manufacturer to chase is a dauntng prospect.

But all us mugs are in this together so can you email me, and I'll send you the information sheet and a list of car/van thieves/arsonists we reccommend.

For all those who can't recognise silliness the last reference to thieves and arsonists was just a piece of very juvenile sick silly humour. OK?

[Tomo3090]

Andy, do you know if they bring their own matches or do we have to supply them ourselves, and can we claim this from FIAT! :-D

[Tomo3090]

Just to clarify something. Do the automatic gearbox vans judder as well? Because if not then the judder might be a clutch thing as opposed to the gearbox being faulty.

[mco]

Andy.

I've only just come in on this as I'm not personally involved because our motor home is Ford based but it seems to me that MMM should be fully supporting you in this very important campaign and warning readers against buying the vehicles involved.

 

Do MMM intend to do this? If not, why not?

 

M. O.

[AndyStothert]

Yes, MMM are going to chuck their weight in with it - a letter appeared in this months mag and in the June issue the whole sorry saga gets an airing.

I've no doubt some of the advertisers will attempt to sabotage it but there is now enough evidence to make it a consumer protection issue, and this should ensure the pressure from the advertisers is resisted.

[fred grant]

mco - 2008-03-28 7:44 PM

 

Andy.

I've only just come in on this as I'm not personally involved because our motor home is Ford based but it seems to me that MMM should be fully supporting you in this very important campaign and warning readers against buying the vehicles involved.

 

Do MMM intend to do this? If not, why not?

 

M. O.

 

alice says there was about 3 peges of fiat stuff in the last mmm, and wot is this web site if its not part of mmm my biddy?? come on wake up mco. talk about fred berrying is ed in the sand.

 

flatulentfred

[mco]

Andy.

I am pleased to hear that MMM are going to support you and hopefully warn it's readers of this problem, so that prospective buyers can make an informed decision before purchasing a new motor home.

 

I would have little respect for MMM if they did anything less than this.

 

M. O.

[mco]

fred grant.

There's probably 53 pages of Fiat stuff in April's MMM but none of them relevant to Andy's and many other peoples rather serious problem.

 

M. O.

[rupert123]

I have followed this thread with interest for some time and indeed have posted a reply. However it never ceases to amaze me how people with no experience of the vehicle take to making comments that are inaccurate or plain stupid. The man who has had a real problem is Andy but he does not say if the gearbox failure has happened again, and their is certainly no record of Ducato gearbox problems. Others who are joining in by reversing up steep hills and complaining about a judder have plainly never tried to reverse up a very steep hill before, most commercials will judder if asked to do this. The judder is caused by either plain bad driving or trying to get the vehicle to do something it was never designed for, but will it cause gearbox failure, no why should it. Now it may be that a few of these vehicles have a problem and if so it should be fixed but it is certainly not wide spread. In 2007 Fiat sold some 10,000 new units in the UK, in Europe they sold around 130,000 units. Now I would suggest a general problem would have shown up by now but it has not. Suggestions that the few complaints will effect sales is plainly not correct, why should it most are fine. Fiat had some early recalls but when did a new vehicle not have some, if you bother to check the VOSA site you will see they have less than all major competitors. Two in three motorhome base units are now Fiat, why because they are the best, most others are now old and drive like tractors in comparison. The Ducato unit has now been around for some 18 months so early bugs are sorted, it is not in Fiats interest to ignore problems but they plainly do not accept the very few judder complaints as a problem. Unlike I suspect most on this forum I have now driven three Ducato's, two 2007, one 2008 and none juddered in reverse, although I have little doubt if I found a steep enough hill they would, I agree with Fiat this would be normal and I would say this is currently by far the best base unit on the market both in layout and driving, if thinking of buying a new motorhome go for a Fiat based one, by all means test drive first. I have been in the motortrade for 30 years, now retired, and have seen this type of discussion many times get blown up out of proportion by a few people. No one can blame Andy or anyone else for complaining long and loud about faults, I would do it myself, but keep things in proportion.

[dikyenfo]

I see that we are no further on from the last time I posted. It is not a huge matter to change the clutch for a bigger version and /or the engine mounts.I did it on my Tranny and swapped the 4-spring clutch for the 8-spring version. Stops the judder and feels better as well. The manufacturer will not do this as they already have a heavy duty vehicle in the range - nanely the Iveco which is the white van man version and this is so good that renault can't sell a van in France because of the Iveco. The only way the manufacturer will take any notice is if you deliberately drive in a manner that will cause premature failure of the gearbox ant when the retail;ers extend the allotted warranty expenses they would move ; but who wants to do that?Fit a decent clutch and forget it lifes too short.

[rowley]

There is a small mention about the clutch judder on the www.whatvan.co.uk website.

 

Andy, take a sedative before you read it!

[AndyStothert]

Henry (Rupert 123) obviously hasn't been keeping up here.

We now have 60 owners of the 6 speed versions not happy about excessive juddering in the transmission.

In Italy the problem is even bigger with hundreds complaining about the matter.

If Henry could go and drive one of these things backwards up a steep hil before making judgements then he may experience what the the problem is. Mine is not alone in the gearbox failing (they have been featured on the forum, as have the clutch failures) so please go and drive a 6 speed model up a steep hill and see what happens.

I've been driving motorhomes of all shapes and sizes in these hilly situations for thirty years and none of them have ever behaved like this one. AND FIAT SAY THEY ARE ALL THE SAME - ITS A 'CHARACTERISTIC' OF THE VEHICLE.

Yes, they do drive extremely well, which is why I bought one, but they are flawed.

I'm really quite annoyed now.

 

[rupert123]

AndyStothert - 2008-03-29 4:04 PM

 

Henry (Rupert 123) obviously hasn't been keeping up here.

We now have 60 owners of the 6 speed versions not happy about excessive juddering in the transmission.

In Italy the problem is even bigger with hundreds complaining about the matter.

If Henry could go and drive one of these things backwards up a steep hil before making judgements then he may experience what the the problem is. Mine is not alone in the gearbox failing (they have been featured on the forum, as have the clutch failures) so please go and drive a 6 speed model up a steep hill and see what happens.

I've been driving motorhomes of all shapes and sizes in these hilly situations for thirty years and none of them have ever behaved like this one. AND FIAT SAY THEY ARE ALL THE SAME - ITS A 'CHARACTERISTIC' OF THE VEHICLE.

Yes, they do drive extremely well, which is why I bought one, but they are flawed.

I'm really quite annoyed now.

 

Sorry to annoy not my intention but Andy you really must learn to read posts properly, as I said have tried three, only one was six speed admited. As to not keeping up I have certainly not seen any mention of sixty complaints and these complaints did they have gearbox failures? Hundreds in Italy where did that come from I would be interested to know the source I certainly have not seen it. Why am I so interested well am in the market for a new motorhome and all the ones my wife and I prefer are guess what Fiat based. Now when I see things like your problems I try to research it and find out more before I buy but have learned long ago to try and check facts with people I know in this case one person who works for Fiat, not in vans it is true, and the sales manager at Spinney motorhomes. It was at Spinney I had chance to try them and they sell a lot of vans with the only problem reported the well known water ingress, put right by Fiat some time ago. I also spoke to Swift, not a problem as far as they were concerned. Any vehicle can have a problem but out of 130000 sold in Europe with tiny handfall of reported problems I will probably take the chance. After all what is the alternative a bunch of now old fashion base vehicles or the Transit which has its own reported problems, if I have a problem it will not even make it out of the dealers gates but will be rejected. I DO HAVE SYMPATHY WITH YOU AND HOPE IT IS RESOLVED BUT DO NOT GET ANNOYED BECAUSE SOME DO NOT AGREE.

[Rayjsj]

rupert123 - 2008-03-29 11:44 AM

 

I have followed this thread with interest for some time and indeed have posted a reply. However it never ceases to amaze me how people with no experience of the vehicle take to making comments that are inaccurate or plain stupid.

 

 

 

 

The reason we are dicussing this problem (that's what the Forum is for,isn't it ?) is so that anyone (myself included) who is thinking of parting with nearly £40,000 for a new motorhome does so fully aware that there IS a problem, and that possible gearbox failure is discovered BEFORE warranty expires for people who already own an X/250 based motorhome. Not Stupid, uncomfortable for the industry, maybe, Stupid would be not to talk about it !

 

:D

[rupert123]

Rayjsj - 2008-03-29 5:29 PM

 

rupert123 - 2008-03-29 11:44 AM

 

I have followed this thread with interest for some time and indeed have posted a reply. However it never ceases to amaze me how people with no experience of the vehicle take to making comments that are inaccurate or plain stupid.

 

 

 

 

The reason we are dicussing this problem (that's what the Forum is for,isn't it ?) is so that anyone (myself included) who is thinking of parting with nearly £40,000 for a new motorhome does so fully aware that there IS a problem, and that possible gearbox failure is discovered BEFORE warranty expires for people who already own an X/250 based motorhome. Not Stupid, uncomfortable for the industry, maybe, Stupid would be not to talk about it !

 

:D

 

Again I have to say please read the post properly. I never ever said it was stupid to talk about it. Simply that I happen to think that to Andy and maybe others who have a problem is not funny and STUPID UNIFORMED COMMENTS WILL NOT HELP. That I happen to disagree on the scale of the problem is another matter

[colin]

rowley - 2008-03-29 2:46 PM

 

There is a small mention about the clutch judder on the www.whatvan.co.uk website.

 

Andy, take a sedative before you read it!

 

Don't knock it, I contacted Steve about problem and 2 weeks later they put that story on website, not sure if it will be in mag, but better reaction time than some publishers.

The interesting thing will be seeing what reaction they get from owners, but at least we have another source that confirms Fiat et.al. has know about problem for some time, so if they have told anyone they didn't then they are lying, also it confirms that it is a problem with heavly laeden vans, although Andy's at 2500kg? hardly qualifiies as such.

[dshague]

look at this please http://www.whatvan.co.uk/news_s.asp?id=5263

[dshague]

look at this please http://www.whatvan.co.uk/news_s.asp?id=5263