Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Stewart]

There will be many people who have ordered vans on long delivery times who were not aware of the reversing problem at the time of ordering.

 

What is their legal position in terms of pre-acceptance checking and possible rejection of a vehicle if they find it judders when they take delivery at the dealers?

[gruntfuttock]

I have followed this thread for some time and am surprised as to how many can be taken on by one contributors vitriolic statements. Andy Stothert has resorted to insulting every contributor who happens to disagree with him without any intervention from the moderators. The fact is that not all motorhomes built on the X250 with the 6speed box suffer from clutch judder. Mine does not irrespective of the terrain that I put it through. I suppose I shall now be accused of lying or collaboarting. I also have not personally met any owners with the judder. It is interesting to note that Andy's colleagues on the magazines fail to mention the clutch judder in their reports. Surely if it was that noticeable then the way to get Fiat to sit up and take notice would be by publishing such an occurence in a unbiased test report.

[AndyStothert]

Right, I've calmed down sufficiently to carry on with what I intended. I didn't go into all this half-cocked or without doing an awful lot of research first, and long conversations with many staff members at Fiat who were available to me because of my connections with the motorhome industry.

 

 

I presume that Henry doesn't buy MMM or Practical Motorhome Magazine, as he would have noticed the latest issue of both has used a very low key reference to it in both magazines: there were no passionate pleas to try reversing up steep hills, and no inflammatory remarks about Fiat.

The response has been predictable - everyone thought their van was just a one off bad 'un when it came to reversing up hills, and many believed Fiat's line that their driving skills weren't in tune with today's vehicles. That is how we arrived at the figure of 61 motorcaravanners who aren't happy about things. And rising daily too. I've been posting the daily increases but obviously not everyone has seen them.

And do the doubters think that MMM will back something which suggests that there is a basic design defect in this vehicle if they aren't happy about the facts? Bearing in mind how conservative the mags have to be because advertisers revenues are so important?

Finally, do you (henry) not think that Fiat would have fixed the vehicles which we are all complaining about if they could? And so shut us up? This is going to run and run in the media - do you think they want that? And have you not been listening/reading of Fiat's own statements to disgruntled owners? They have been telling them the juddering is normal and a characteristic of the vehicle. Normal Juddering - have they ever had to say this before?

 

Also one of Italian forums is (I think) www.camperonline.it

But I'm not very savvy with computers and websites so perhaps someone can confirm this.

 

[Clive]

The web link works Andy. It takes you to the main page and then you hit "forum"

What is italian for juddergate?

C.

 

[libby]

Any disbelievers should do as DSHague suggests and look at the Italian forum, there’s plenty of disgruntled Fiat owners on there. (use the translation) They are well worth the read.

 

http://www.whatvan.co.uk/news_s.asp?id=5263

 

This is one comment of many and they DO KNOW ALL ABOUT IT !!

 

I have a camper on Rapid 787F mechanical Ducato Fiat JTD 130, purchased in June 2007, has just 7,500 km e. .. Zac, has broken the clutch. I brought right now in Rome (zone Pisana) by workshop (authorised Fiat) Luccarini specialized area (very professional ) And they told me that is a deficiency of well-known mechanical project at Fiat (which obviously expects to poor malcapitato the clutch fails, since this element there are campaigns call ; Too costly to change Fiat on tens of thousands of resources, better expect him to break all by itself, even out of warranty, no? So we pay the replacement ). On this occasion, I will also call 6 campaigns, I have told them to be done, mica Fiat has sent me notice ! So, I recommend to those who have the Duchy 130 JTD not expected to stay on the streets in mid holiday friction route and go immediately to a factory authorized Fiat to demand an estimate of replacement (the new clutch, as amended, does not give more of these problems, so at least I was guaranteed the workshop).

 

So, according to the above (and others) the clutch will break and the owner will have to pay.

 

There are other comments regarding replacing springs etc

 

LB

 

[michele]

gruntfuttock - 2008-03-29 8:35 PM

 

I have followed this thread for some time and am surprised as to how many can be taken on by one contributors vitriolic statements. Andy Stothert has resorted to insulting every contributor who happens to disagree with him without any intervention from the moderators. The fact is that not all motorhomes built on the X250 with the 6speed box suffer from clutch judder. Mine does not irrespective of the terrain that I put it through. I suppose I shall now be accused of lying or collaboarting. I also have not personally met any owners with the judder. It is interesting to note that Andy's colleagues on the magazines fail to mention the clutch judder in their reports. Surely if it was that noticeable then the way to get Fiat to sit up and take notice would be by publishing such an occurence in a unbiased test report.

 

You say you have followed this thread for ages, what a lie no you aint because if you had I would of seen you lurking . I would suspect you are one of the above .That would explain why you say for ages

 

What gets me, and no mine don't judder but if it did at least I know I wouldnt be on my own fighting it thanks to Andy and others ,how can you come on here and say such things as you have above Vitriolic bit strong isnt it .

I can't see that Andy has resorted to insulting anyone . Passionate about it yes and lets face it if it was you wouldn't you be feeling the same .

Go back to where you have been lurking and I will go back to see where you are lurking if I see you there I know the other guy won't be .

Do me a favour please put in a real name at least Andy gets to see who's slagging him off . ;-)Oh forgot ,if as you say you have followed it for sometime why is it you are sitting there as a new user ? .

Gruntfuttock *-)

[Exustrek]

Hiya Henry

 

My juddering X250 has nothing to do with ‘plain bad driving’ ‘very steep hills’ or ‘trying to get the vehicle to do something it was never designed to do’

 

Here’s what happened to us when we went along to our excellent local Fiat dealership.

 

According to our local Fiat dealership, ALL these vehicles share the same fault, although they were very careful to refer to it as a ‘within tolerance characteristic’.

 

In their own words ‘they are all the same & there is no fix’.

 

The technician who was about to test our vehicle informed me that they had replaced the clutch in two different vehicles to see if this would resolve the issue, but it made no difference at all to the judder & Fiat have refused to authorize any further clutch replacement as a fix…………. this doesn’t work anyway.

 

Take note, that i was told all this before anyone had even looked at the vehicle.

 

The vehicle was tested by a Fiat technician for only a few yards on a slight incline, in a straight line with no obstructions to negotiate & at a speed i would only feel comfortable with if i were traveling forwards, hardly real world reversing conditions i’m sure you’d agree. The vehicle still juddered although somewhat less than i had experienced for myself, he informed me that this was within tolerance. I asked him to repeat the manoeuvre at a safer, more controlled speed, which he did & the vehicle juddered the same for him as it does for me, he told me that this was a ‘normal characteristic’ & that they were all the same. My Wife commented that the whole rear panel of the van was vibrating quite violently.

 

Every time we have to perform this reversing manoeuvre we fear that something is about to break. None of these so called characteristics were evident on our last two Ducato based vans, i find it hard to believe that Fiat are happy to describe this fundamental fault as ‘normal’.

 

After chasing Fiat customer service for a response, i managed to get them to send me a letter of acknowledgement in which they advise me to give the vehicle more revs to reduce the judder, this goes totally against the grain as to what most drivers would consider to be best practice for a safe & controlled reversing manoeuvre without over stressing the vehicle. They also informed me that because their technician was unable to determine a manufacturing fault that they are unable to continue investigations, i suggest that this is a design fault & would explain why i was told with such confidence before any inspection of our vehicle that ‘they are all the same’ & not a manufacturing fault which would most likely affect only a batch of vehicles.

 

At no time have Fiat said to me that the vehicle does not, or should not judder, on the contrary, they have told me that this is a normal characteristic of the vehicle, which would suggest that an X250 that does not judder would be the exception rather than the rule.

 

I asked Fiat customer service if they would be prepared to give me some sort of reassurance if the unthinkable happened to one of their low mileage meticulously maintained & serviced vehicles, but one which had a known clutch/gearbox issue from new, once the warranty period had expired, obviously, they declined.

 

We love every other aspect of our van & hope to have many trouble free trips over the next couple of years until the warranty expires, by which time we’ll hopefully be in a financial position to sell or trade & it gives me great hope that there will be others who share your confidence in the X250 & will make selling a sinch.

 

I hope you’ll be happy with your choice of van & you have no problems with it at all, I wouldn’t wish all this hassle on my worst uninformed enemy.

 

Ours is an 07 Dethleffs on a 3.0l 160 base with only 3,000 recorded miles if you’re interested in a nearly new model.

 

Bryan

[libby]

I assume that Gruntfuttock (above) is a Fiat Company employee.

 

I have a suggestion for Fiat. That they should post a display notice on their show stands to the effect that

 

"All vehicles sold with our traditional judder, designed specifically for reversing up your driveways"

 

LB

[michele]

You forgot to say at low revs only not designed for reversing backwards up a hill :D you will get a big judder and we will be telling you that it is your own driving at fault nothing to do with us whatso ever >:-)

[gruntfuttock]

I wasn't aware that I had changed jobs, but if people want to accuse me of working for Fiat, that is fine. Not true but it is fine.

Let's look at figures and facts, in the 2007 model year about 8000 motorhomes were sold on the Fiat X250 chassis and then a much smaller number on the Peugeot. We are now halfway into the 2008 model year in a rising market, so a conservative guess would put at least another 4000 Fiats on the road. That make a total in excess of 12,000 units. Andy Stothert says that he has had reports of 61 units with clutch judder (not all units). Based on his figures that is a rate of .5%, If we add in the white van commercial vehicles, which do not appear to report that judder in large numbers despite the fact that they would not receive the care of a Motorhome the rate falls considerably. Nobody seems to have an independant report to detail exactly why there have been failures and how to rectify the matter.

Come on Andy, if you have the contacts within Fiat, which you must have, get them to agree to stripping a unit with a known issue accompanied by a trusted independant engineer and then agree to publish the joint report irrespective of the outcome.

[michele]

 

Gruntfuttock

Come on Andy, if you have the contacts within Fiat, which you must have, get them to agree to stripping a unit with a known issue accompanied by a trusted independant engineer and then agree to publish the joint report irrespective of the outcome.

 

And if they stripped Andys very own one what do you think they would say knowing that he would publish ?you obviously think it would come out in Fiats favour .If they insist there is no problem then why are they sending people away with a fob off .

Oh by the way what do you think of the money Eurestek has spent on his normal judder just asking

 

 

[colin]

Mike H - 2008-03-20 10:06 AM

 

I had my Independant Inspection yesterday. Awaiting written report, but was informed, that in his opinion, the Clutch pressure plate is too small and not strong enough, for the weight of the vehicle and that the engine mountings were too soft. Will publish report when I receive it.

Mike H.

There's the independant report, but if you read earlier post you would know that Fiat etc. are refusing to accept independant reports, also at whatvan Fiat have accepted there is a problem,but, blame it on 'overloaded' vans

p.s. does anyone realy believe Fiat etc. will admit to this one unless there nose is rubbed in it, it would potentialy cost them a fortune, I can still remember the problems with the earlier model where water was washing throu the battery, they blamed it on motorhomes not being driven enough, and of cause there's the famous case of ford prefering to pay out for people dying because it was cheaper than redesigning pinto

[Exustrek]

Sorry Michele

 

I should have mentioned that the technicians hand written notes were on the bottom of our service invoice, the money was for service, they didn't really want to commit anything in writing & this was all i had to hand.

 

gruntfuttock.............. statistics are little consolation if you're one of the afflicted. Fiat customer service point blank refused to even look at an independant engineers report & totally dismissed the suggestion during our telephone conversation.

 

Bryan

[Gregory]

rupert123 - 2008-03-29 11:44 AM

 

I have followed this thread with interest for some time and indeed have posted a reply. However it never ceases to amaze me how people with no experience of the vehicle take to making comments that are inaccurate or plain stupid. The man who has had a real problem is Andy but he does not say if the gearbox failure has happened again, and their is certainly no record of Ducato gearbox problems. Others who are joining in by reversing up steep hills and complaining about a judder have plainly never tried to reverse up a very steep hill before, most commercials will judder if asked to do this. The judder is caused by either plain bad driving or trying to get the vehicle to do something it was never designed for, but will it cause gearbox failure, no why should it. Now it may be that a few of these vehicles have a problem and if so it should be fixed but it is certainly not wide spread. In 2007 Fiat sold some 10,000 new units in the UK, in Europe they sold around 130,000 units. Now I would suggest a general problem would have shown up by now but it has not. Suggestions that the few complaints will effect sales is plainly not correct, why should it most are fine. Fiat had some early recalls but when did a new vehicle not have some, if you bother to check the VOSA site you will see they have less than all major competitors. Two in three motorhome base units are now Fiat, why because they are the best, most others are now old and drive like tractors in comparison. The Ducato unit has now been around for some 18 months so early bugs are sorted, it is not in Fiats interest to ignore problems but they plainly do not accept the very few judder complaints as a problem. Unlike I suspect most on this forum I have now driven three Ducato's, two 2007, one 2008 and none juddered in reverse, although I have little doubt if I found a steep enough hill they would, I agree with Fiat this would be normal and I would say this is currently by far the best base unit on the market both in layout and driving, if thinking of buying a new motorhome go for a Fiat based one, by all means test drive first. I have been in the motortrade for 30 years, now retired, and have seen this type of discussion many times get blown up out of proportion by a few people. No one can blame Andy or anyone else for complaining long and loud about faults, I would do it myself, but keep things in proportion.

 

Not sure what you mean, I've driven a fair few brands of commercial vehicles over the last 39 years, driven and reversed them in some places I had no right taking them, but I can't recall clutch judder being a regular problem.

 

Which other base vehicles have you driven that drive like tractors?

 

Cheers,

 

Greg.

 

[Exustrek]

Here's what Fiat are saying over at Whatvan............. “It's not something that's been raised with us recently, but it's something we've seen in the past and it usually turns out to be clutch judder, possibly caused by a worn plate,” he says. “It's something that can particularly afflict chassis cabs that have had large, badly-specified, bodies mounted on them that turn out to be heavier than the clutch can cope with once they are fully laden.”

 

And this from their Ad in this month's CC mag................ A lower lighter chassis. More payload, easier access.

130 multijet and 160 multijet power engines with gear ratios specially tailored for motorhomes. More power and more driving comfort.

 

 

I think we all know that this issue has been raised with them recently.

Our van has only done 3,000 miles, surely the clutch should not be worn out already.

They tell Whatvan about badly specified overweight bodies & in the next breath advertise in CC mag that this chasis was specially designed to cope with badly specified overweight bodies.

 

Come on Fiat.......... which is it to be?

 

Bryan

 

[gruntfuttock]

Michele,

You are so wrong, I would hope that the inspection showed a consistent fault that could be diagnosed and corrected. Surely that is what everyone wants.

Fiat will not accept independant reports, that is often the case but if push came to shove the report would assist in court, dependant of course on the qualification of the inspector.

What I am saying is that with Andy's contacts, Fiat are unlikely to publicly refuse to accept such an inspection, in fact they would probably welcome it as they could satisfy themselves that nothing has been missed.They would hope to be proved right just as the complainant would also like to be proved right.

Surely it is worth a shot, unless anybody else has any other intelligent suggestions.

[Andy T]

Congratulations dikyenfo on fixing your transit.

As far as my X250 is concerned, I, after agonising over dozens of used models decided that I would be safe with the X250 as it had been out on the continent for a year or so and it would have been debugged. I coughed up £30,000, most of my savings (what the hell, you can't take it with you) to have trouble free motoring (!) for the next two years.

 

So with 1,800 miles on the clock, WHICH other engine mountings, that's RH, LH and rear gearbox mounting at about £60 a chuck and which clutch cover and centre plate at £100 or so? Oh yes, and because I have a nice little selection of hernias after forty odd years in the motor trade and no workshop and even my local garage charge £40 an hour! And, oh yes, of course, it might not be a fix!

 

And rupert123. Yes, I can cope with the judder on moderate slopes but at the expense of a smelly clutch (as approved by FIAT; ie more revs) as mine is a five speed and the least affected. But I don't want to replace the clutch; in fifty years of motoring I've never worn one out before.

And the six speeders have had more than one broken gearbox; read the posts! Andy Stothert's still judders as badly as ever; read the posts! FIAT say they all do it, but as a characteristic. Read the posts! And no, there's no reason why a well designed clutch should judder, commercial vehicle or otherwise! Or do you think a 12cu meter rigid eight wheeler full of tarmac never reversed up a slope?

And as for a response of sixty odd to a campaign on an internet blog being 0.5%, true, and that's enormous in statistical terms. Any ad agency would be proud of it!

 

Oh and yes, of course, you are all entitled to say what you like within the bounds of propriety and the laws of the land! But because this is a crappy old world anyway, try to be nice!:-S

 

Andy Talbot.

[AndyStothert]

If there have been some misunderstandings here it is probably because of the format of the forum site and the fact that this has been running on three different threads. So I may have become confused. It happens.

I thought at some point I'd made Fiat's position on this clear, but maybe not. It is as follows:

 

Fiat state that they are ALL juddering, and that this is 'characteristic' of the vehicle. As designed. Normal. This is fact. Many, many owners have been told this by Fiat Customer Care and by Fiat technicians after testing their juddering motorhomes as a result of customer complaints.

Fiat will not discuss any link between the juddering and the gearbox failures on hills whilst reversing. This is also fact.

Fiat will not discuss any link between the juddering and premature clutch failures.

Fiat will not accept any report from an independent engineer.

These are the things Fiat will and will not discuss with their customers at Fiat Customer Care.

 

However, Fiat (in the form of Steve Barker, the Motorhome Chassis Supply manager) will discuss this, in general terms, with editors of magazines (and customers) who have asked him about this. He categorically states that Fiat are aware of the juddering and are attempting to find a solution. He has been saying this for over six months. Unfortunately Mr Barker has absolutely no say in how customers are treated and how their concerns are met.

 

On the matter of Mr Futtock's long standing viewing of this matter on the forum, well perhaps he did miss the ongoing discussion of why Fiat might want to resist their customers complaints and attempt to brush this all under the corporate carpet. They may very well be financial.

He may also be a touch naive concerning the antics of major companies when faced with an almightily expensive to cure cock-up. They tend to lie through their teeth to save their own backsides.

So don't you think we should give him the benefit of the doubt eh?

 

Perhaps, though, he could tell us who he is?

[rupert123]

Andy T - 2008-03-30 10:39 AM

 

 

 

And rupert123. Yes, I can cope with the judder on moderate slopes but at the expense of a smelly clutch (as approved by FIAT; ie more revs) as mine is a five speed and the least affected. But I don't want to replace the clutch; in fifty years of motoring I've never worn one out before.

And the six speeders have had more than one broken gearbox; read the posts! Andy Stothert's still judders as badly as ever; read the posts! FIAT say they all do it, but as a characteristic. Read the posts! And no, there's no reason why a well designed clutch should judder, commercial vehicle or otherwise! Or do you think a 12cu meter rigid eight wheeler full of tarmac never reversed up a slope?

And as for a response of sixty odd to a campaign on an internet blog being 0.5%, true, and that's enormous in statistical terms. Any ad agency would be proud of it!

 

 

Andy Talbot.

 

I am tired of saying this but once again please read posts properly. I have never at any time mentioned a clutch judder, just a juddering or if you like a vibration. Are you saying this judder that some people have is caused by the clutch? Please explain how a judder/vibration would cause a gearbox failure. I agree a well designed clutch will not judder but again who said it was the clutch, not me. Any vehicle will vibrate if asked to do something it is not designed for, the only question is are these few motorhomes being asked to do just that or is their a mechanical problem with them. What does seem certain is that most do not have a problem, quite a few have said as much on here but are ignored. I seem to remember a post some time ago of a commercial guy who ran around 40 new Ducato,s and not one has had any problems.

[AndyStothert]

God this is getting hard work, but yes, the gearbox damage can be explained quite easily by a severe judder in the transmission.

But is it relevant? The fact that it failed whilst reversing up a steep hill and juddering very badly at the time, is surely enough. and with only 3000 miles on the clock. The result is that as the judder which caused this is still present I'm now having to make damned sure I don't get in that situation again. So we aren't going to all the places we really should be because we are frightened of breaking the box again, or cooking the clutch again.

Henry if you really are serious about looking for a van, and you're not just messing about, then email me and I'll give you my phone number so that I can explain everything and even how the gearbox broke as a result of the juddering.

Can I say fairer than that?

[icdsun]

I am tired of saying this but once again please read posts properly. ....Any vehicle will vibrate if asked to do something it is not designed for, the only question is are these few motorhomes being asked to do just that or is their a mechanical problem with them.

 

Rupert123

 

Can I add a little something to your above suggestion

 

I am one of the sufferers of this problem, I appreciate I am asking a lot, my drive is nearly 5 inches above the tarmac road with a traverse of a 1.6 metre footpath with the appropriate slope, my 6 month old vehicle 2.3 6speed judders when it is required to reverse onto my drive, I have tried various methods of reversing including the 1300RPM as Fiat suggest and cannot seem to get my MH to reverse without a juddering going through the vehicle. I personally dont give a damn whether it is the gearbox,clutch or any other components I just want it fixed, or for Fiat to change it to one of the abnormal/faulty models that do not have this characteristic.

 

I did not notice it on the spec sheets or that it had this extra fitted as standard in any of the brochures.

 

If you are indeed buying a MH on a Fiat base I sincerely hope that you get one of the abnormal ones that do not have this characteristic, but don't shoot the messenger just because it does not affect you personally.

 

Chris

 

 

[Exustrek]

The thing i find most strange about this thread is that those who believe that they do not have a problem with their own X250 feel the need to jump to the defense of Fiat & to dismiss as pure folly the comments of those who do have a real problem, what is that all about?

 

It is usually widely accepted that the best advice / recommendation you are likely to get about motorhomes is from fellow motorhomers, who, unlike a manufacturer or a dealer have nothing to lose or gain from telling it the way it is.

 

If you are an X250 owner & you feel you do not have a problem with your vehicle, then i’m genuinely pleased for you. As fellow motorhomers i would have hoped that you would show the same courtesy & wish us well in getting our vehicles sorted out.

 

If you’re a prospective X250 buyer & you’re convinced that this all just a figment of our imaginations, great, go buy one. I just don’t understand why you feel the need to defend Fiat or your choice of van in this way.

 

If i were in either position i would consider myself lucky not to have a problem & just get on with enjoying my vehicle, or consider myself lucky to be well informed of a potential problem for a potential purchase & get on with the business of putting all my faith & life savings into my own choice of vehicle, safe in the knowledge that the manufacturer would be beyond reproach & would sort out any problems with a brand new vehicle should they arise, without question.

 

Happy camping…………… Bryan

 

[Clive]

Its easy Bryan,

Those who have spent their hard won cash on a new Fiat based MH can see this thread day by day reducing the sell on or part exchange value of their investment, hence they don,t like it.

I bet that once this issue has been sorted that an awfull lot of Fiat based MHs come on the market?

C.

 

[Guest Tracker]

Clive - 2008-03-31 12:18 PM

 

Its easy Bryan,

Those who have spent their hard won cash on a new Fiat based MH can see this thread day by day reducing the sell on or part exchange value of their investment, hence they don,t like it.

I bet that once this issue has been sorted that an awfull lot of Fiat based MHs come on the market?

C.

 

Without doubt - but how many will need new a gearbox or clutch when they reach the ripe old age of three years and one month and are out of warranty?

 

And how will Fiat / Peugeot / Citroen respond do you think if they still will not even accept that there even might be, let alone is, an issue?

 

Sorry folks, but my next van will not be X250 based!

 

I'm not saying my decision is either right or wrong 'cos I don't know for sure - but why take the chance?

 

Others must also make their own decisions based on their own feelings and the experience of others.

 

Loss of new unit sales and/or a switch by converters to other chassis is the only way that Fiat will sit up and take notice.

 

[libby]

Plus any doubters should read the Italians problem, they are already saying its costing them big money and Fiat will not assist.

 

Its widely stated in Italy that Fiat admit and know the problem and will not do anything.

 

One person was offered a Fiat workshop to do his own repair, that's about the best they can offer, but the customer still pays!

 

LB