gruntfuttock Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Tracker - 2008-03-31 12:42 PM Loss of new unit sales and/or a switch by converters to other chassis is the only way that Fiat will sit up and take notice. Exactly correct but that is not going to happen. New unit sales are not suffering because there is little publicity given to the issue. Also a very high proportion of new unit sales are on the basis of status rather than need. It is like any status symbol, you will always find buyers. Getting converters to switch to another chassis could be doen but too many converters have too much money invested in one chassis. By doing that they get better discounts and pass them onto end users. To redesign every vehicle would break almost every MotorHome manufacturer. But it is the manufacturers who must be the key players in this. They are, after all, the only customer that Fiat is answerable to, and are therefore the only body that can bring pressure on Fiat (Sorry Fiat/PSA). There is the problem, this is a poorly structured disjointed industry and the prospects of getting a large enough body of manufacturers to act would be almost impossible. Perhaps the press could assist in canvassing the manufacturers. Fact is that legally the only recourse that Motorhome owners have is with their dealer, they do not have any contract with anybody else. The Fiat warranty is provided but it will still say "Your legal rights are maintained" and your legal rights are with the dealer. Don't forget, your new £50000 Motorhome only represents about £14000 with Fiat. Andy Stothert has implied that I have no knowledge of dealing with major suppliers and complaints. Well he is wrong, we deal with corporations far larger than Fiat and if we have sufficient evidence that there is an issue with a product we arrange mutual inspections of the unit in a joint effort to rectify the issue. If a supplier does want to co-operate then we weild the big stick, we will stop selling their products until they do. My big assumption is that the Motorhome press has a sufficiently strong reputation with all aspects of the industry that they could put together a strong enough case for some action to be taken. If there is not that mutual respect then we can see this exact same thing happen when any of the other chassis manufacturers have an issue with their product. I support the raison d'etre for these forums and especially this one as it is hosted by the press and has contributions from members of the press, but it needs to show it's teeth. Why not publish an open invitation to Fiat to attend an inspection and their answer. Possibly the reason for not doing this is that income from advertisers is more important than readership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadjo Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 hi all I'm due to take delivery of a new Auto trail Cheyenne in may and yes it's on a fiat x250 6 speed chassis. I've been following this tread with a lot of interest and am now quick frankly worried. Hopfully this will be resolved but it dont look like it. It will be interesting how long it will be before I'm in the same situation as many others on here and I have been forced to reverse up that dreaded incline. Have spoken to Auto trail and dealer about this but all played down and claims of no complaints made as expected. At least I am aware of the problem but that will be little comfort when sat with broken gearbox and clutch :-( ah well I had nothing better to spend me money on *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Copied from the What Van website :- "It's not something that's been raised with us recently, but it's something we've seen in the past and it usually turns out to be clutch judder, possibly caused by a worn plate,” he says. “It's something that can particularly afflict chassis cabs that have had large, badly-specified, bodies mounted on them that turn out to be heavier than the clutch can cope with once they are fully laden.” If a Fiat Representative did say this then surely they have, by this, admitted that the MTPLM/GTW shown on the vehicle's plate is incorrect as the clutch will not be able to handle this weight and thus their specifications are faulty. Or are they suggesting that you all operate over the legal weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 So if its defective dont take it I know thats little joy to you but if its unfit then surely youhave the right I would ask them to take me to the biggest hill and try it out .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Armed with the knowledge that there MAY be a problem with your new van - as maybe not all vans are afflicted - maybe you should make it clear to the supplying dealer verbally and with a smile to start with - but quickly followed by a written confirmation that if your new investment is unable to reverse uphill in an acceptable manner (acceptable in this case meaning as well as any other motor home) you reserve the right to reject the goods as unfit for purpose and request a full refund? Do please let us know what the dealer says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 Mr Futtock is absolutely right in all he says in the last post. Except his almost touching belief that big business will 'do the right thing'. But we have been through all this before. We are well aware of our legal rights, and who the contract is with (the dealer) and who the key players are in all of this (the motorhome manufacturers) and in the end, because Fiat/PSA have such a large share of the market switching chassis will not be an option the manufacturers will consider without very persistent and concerted pressure. This forum discussion is part of that larger objective. As I said - we've been through all this before, BUT Mr Futtock just doesn't seem to understand that Fiat are stonewalling everyone all over Europe. We don't know for sure why, but that is the fact of the matter. They won't even offer any response for the press. The won't even tell me, a customer who has spent thousands of pounds on their product, whether they think my vehicle is defective or not, despite a very revealing test of it by one of their technicians when he had the clutch smoking. Since then they won't give me a decision of any kind. All they will say (five weeks later) is that they are still considering the matter. If he can get any more sense out of Fiat and Peugeot than the 63 owners who have so far failed then fine - he can take over and run this affair for us. I'm sorry if I'm sounding a little tetchy, but we aren't eejits, we realise what this may entail, and we are still open to suggestions. But what we don't want is somebody popping up half way through (it may not even be halfway yet) and treating us in a dismissive and patronising way. However, I'm extremely grateful to him for giving me another opportunity to keep this boiling and vent my frustration for Fiat on him. If it is a him that is. So, cheers Mr Futtock. PS. Who the hell are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 gruntfuttock as given a serious clue (unintended or not?) in one of is posts to who e is me ansums. and e is not on our sides my ansums thats for sure. so say something useful mr buttocks or bedger off. or cum down to cornwall and fite it out with an ex cornish talbot ownin wrestlin champion. fightingfitfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp002c784tp002c784tp Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 A few years ago when the previous model Ducato (the 15 ) came out and people were having trouble with the water on the engine from the leaking scuttle, I said there is no way I would buy a Fiat then they started having trouble with 5th gear and I said never will I own one of these. The fifth gear problem had a few theorys what was causing this breakdown one theory from our favourite Mag MMM was I think it was named Tired Motorhome syndrome this is a great favourite of our Magazine because it covers a multitude of sins it means because our pride and joys tend to lie around idle most of there life things deteriote and what they said I believe the oil in the gearbox drained down to the bottom and if the van stood around for a lengh of time the next time you drove it like most people you would try to get into fifth gear as soon as posible, and this gear been at the top of the box was starved of oil it broke. Fiats answer to this problem was that you should not attempt to engage fifth gear until the vehicle is doing 57 mph in some cases our vehicles would never engage fifth gear. In September I went hunting the York show for a new motorhome as I was one of the unlucky owners to lose his van in the floods last july, and I had my heart set on another Renault but alas I could not find one that suited us, So I started looking at other models, each of the dealers I asked about the water problem all said there is no problem this put me off even thinking about a new Fiat. We spotted a Lunar Roadstar 620 last years model but new but it was a FIAT, I thought long and hard about this vehicle the interior met all our needs and it has an end lounge which the boss has always yearned for, and our previous van was a Lunar and I still think they are well built, BUT it was a FIAT , but I thought it ( Fiat ) is now a much tried and tested vehicle and they now have there troubles ironed out so I bought it. I find its a delight to drive and would not part with it now, but if I won the lottery and had the means to buy brand new I would not buy the new FIAT Terry :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp002c784tp002c784tp Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 A few years ago when the previous model Ducato (the 15 ) came out and people were having trouble with the water on the engine from the leaking scuttle, I said there is no way I would buy a Fiat then they started having trouble with 5th gear and I said never will I own one of these. The fifth gear problem had a few theorys what was causing this breakdown one theory from our favourite Mag MMM was I think it was named Tired Motorhome syndrome this is a great favourite of our Magazine because it covers a multitude of sins it means because our pride and joys tend to lie around idle most of there life things deteriote and what they said I believe the oil in the gearbox drained down to the bottom and if the van stood around for a lengh of time the next time you drove it like most people you would try to get into fifth gear as soon as posible, and this gear been at the top of the box was starved of oil it broke. Fiats answer to this problem was that you should not attempt to engage fifth gear until the vehicle is doing 57 mph in some cases our vehicles would never engage fifth gear. In September I went hunting the York show for a new motorhome as I was one of the unlucky owners to lose his van in the floods last july, and I had my heart set on another Renault but alas I could not find one that suited us, So I started looking at other models, each of the dealers I asked about the water problem all said there is no problem this put me off even thinking about a new Fiat. We spotted a Lunar Roadstar 620 last years model but new but it was a FIAT, I thought long and hard about this vehicle the interior met all our needs and it has an end lounge which the boss has always yearned for, and our previous van was a Lunar and I still think they are well built, BUT it was a FIAT , but I thought it ( Fiat ) is now a much tried and tested vehicle and they now have there troubles ironed out so I bought it. I find its a delight to drive and would not part with it now, but if I won the lottery and had the means to buy brand new I would not buy the new FIAT Terry :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tp002c784tp002c784tp Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 A few years ago when the previous model Ducato (the 15 ) came out and people were having trouble with the water on the engine from the leaking scuttle, I said there is no way I would buy a Fiat then they started having trouble with 5th gear and I said never will I own one of these. The fifth gear problem had a few theorys what was causing this breakdown one theory from our favourite Mag MMM was I think it was named Tired Motorhome syndrome this is a great favourite of our Magazine because it covers a multitude of sins it means because our pride and joys tend to lie around idle most of there life things deteriote and what they said I believe the oil in the gearbox drained down to the bottom and if the van stood around for a lengh of time the next time you drove it like most people you would try to get into fifth gear as soon as posible, and this gear been at the top of the box was starved of oil it broke. Fiats answer to this problem was that you should not attempt to engage fifth gear until the vehicle is doing 57 mph in some cases our vehicles would never engage fifth gear. In September I went hunting the York show for a new motorhome as I was one of the unlucky owners to lose his van in the floods last july, and I had my heart set on another Renault but alas I could not find one that suited us, So I started looking at other models, each of the dealers I asked about the water problem all said there is no problem this put me off even thinking about a new Fiat. We spotted a Lunar Roadstar 620 last years model but new but it was a FIAT, I thought long and hard about this vehicle the interior met all our needs and it has an end lounge which the boss has always yearned for, and our previous van was a Lunar and I still think they are well built, BUT it was a FIAT , but I thought it ( Fiat ) is now a much tried and tested vehicle and they now have there troubles ironed out so I bought it. I find its a delight to drive and would not part with it now, but if I won the lottery and had the means to buy brand new I would not buy the new FIAT Terry :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The message to Fiat/Peugeot is quite simple, own up and stump up to correct this problem in a workmanlike manner and perhaps our crowd just might purchase a Fiat/Peugeot based motorhome again. One thing that is for sure, most converters will be looking seriously at alternatives to Fiat/Peugeot if they want to stay in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 We now have 66 owners of Fiat, Peugeot, and Citroen x250 models 'vans concerned about the manner in which these vehicles judder whilst reversing up hills. Several (4) have had gearbox failure as as result of this, and several others (again 4) have experienced clutch failure. Many more report smoking or burning clutches when reversing uphill and many will not now go anywhere which may involve reversing up a hill. The figure of 66 isn't in some ways that substantial, but if you stop to think about when was the last time YOU were compelled to reverse up a hill, and how rare that may be, this figure takes on an altogether different look. I'm going to try and persuade one of the Italians fighting Fiat about the exact same issue there to put a post on this forum, and if anyone here can translate one from me to put on theirs can they please email me. Can anyone viewing this who owns a Fiat or Peugeot new model motorhome, especially those fitted with the 6 speed gearbox please find a steep hill and try reversing the van up it. If you aren't happy with the juddering in the transmission email me. andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 RoyH - 2008-03-31 3:50 PM Copied from the What Van website :- "It's not something that's been raised with us recently, but it's something we've seen in the past and it usually turns out to be clutch judder, possibly caused by a worn plate,” he says. “It's something that can particularly afflict chassis cabs that have had large, badly-specified, bodies mounted on them that turn out to be heavier than the clutch can cope with once they are fully laden.” If a Fiat Representative did say this then surely they have, by this, admitted that the MTPLM/GTW shown on the vehicle's plate is incorrect as the clutch will not be able to handle this weight and thus their specifications are faulty. Or are they suggesting that you all operate over the legal weight. My take on this: If Fiat are selling chassis cabs that they are specifically manufacturing to be turned into motorhomes and these then complete motorhomes are unable to reverse without a problem then the problem is a DESIGN problem. They are not fit for purpose. They are selling goods that were designed for a specific task, but they are not able to meet that task, therefore they are defective. As to possible problems, on reading some of the earlier posts, I note that someone mentioned that Fiat have produced a lighter chassis cab/vehicle to give better payload etc. If that is definitely the case, could it also be that these lighter chassis are not up to the job being less rigid than their predecessors and are therefore flexing or twisting when under 'pressure' in reverse???? Just a thought. Any engineers out there who would know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 gruntfuttock - 2008-03-31 3:19 PM Andy Stothert has implied that I have no knowledge of dealing with major suppliers and complaints. Well he is wrong, we deal with corporations far larger than Fiat and if we have sufficient evidence that there is an issue with a product we arrange mutual inspections of the unit in a joint effort to rectify the issue. If a supplier does want to co-operate then we weild the big stick, we will stop selling their products until they do. I'd be very interested to know what industry/product this is in relation to. Without qualifying it, it is impossible to say how much weight should be given to this statement. You may purchase a product direct from the manufacturer, however motorhomes are a different beast. The first product, the chassis, is bought by the motorhome manufacturer, who then passes it on to the motorhome dealer once converted. Therefore there is not the direct link you seem to enjoy in your company and that is one of the problems. How many motorhome dealers could possibly stop selling motorhomes based on Fiat chassis and not go out of business? We, as consumers, can do something, just don't but them in the first place, however that doesn't help those that have and obviously do not have the clout that your company appears to have, if only they had! As others have said, it would help if you could make yourself known and where you are coming from, so that we can assess your comments more appropriately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Gruntfuttock, real name: TROLL! Location: under a bridge somewhere! Best way to deal with a TROLL: ignore the little blighters and they get bored and go to annoy someone else! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 gruntfuttock A word of dissatisfaction used in polite company THE GRUNTFUTTOCK SAGA Broadcast: 9th April 1967 (He/she must be old then?) Kenneth Horne as the straight man anchored the whole careering, seething, teaming, chaotic hullabaloo emitted from the likes of J Peasemold Gruntfuttock, Rambling Syd Rumpo, Daphne Whitethigh, Shamus Android, Binkie Huckaback and Dame Celia Molestrangler (played by Betty Marsden, Hugh Paddick, Bill Pertwee and Kenneth Williams). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 If you want to translate to another language then use this http://babelfish.altavista.com/. I have told Andy in an e mail. Clive, I must be old because I remember Round the Horne as well. Ahh.... the good old days. P S I am NOT GRUNTFUTTOCK. Nor am I Roy Hudd as someone thought some time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joiner Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I see that Lunar are trying to ditch some LHD 2.3, 6 speed chassis cabs on ebay. Is this an omen of things to come for the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Joiner give us the link then we can all have a look at it then 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 The problem with forums is that there are just so many........ The Italians have passed on this one, but as Roberto from Rome says there could be hundreds of other out there. And he's not sore about the football last night. If any of you can understand whatvit all means let us know. I can't even understand folk from south of Chorley. www.routard.com/forum_message/13561550/problemes_de_marche_arriere_sur_fiat_130_cv.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Hi all. Just to let you know,I've had enough,and am in the process of part exing my X250. Will let you know more when deal is all finalised. I am waiting for the Independant Engineer to get back to me, I asked if he would let his report be used by this forum? I will still follow this thread very closely, I might have done the wrong thing and got out too early,and could have saved a few grand. We will see. Mike H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Getting a Merc Mike?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-04-02 9:04 AM The problem with forums is that there are just so many........ The Italians have passed on this one, but as Roberto from Rome says there could be hundreds of other out there. And he's not sore about the football last night. If any of you can understand whatvit all means let us know. I can't even understand folk from south of Chorley. www.routard.com/forum_message/13561550/problemes_de_marche_arriere_sur_fiat_130_cv.htm Andy having real trouble finding this for you it does not appear to come up as a M/home forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSHORT Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Can I ask has anyone reported problems towing small cars behind the new Fiats etc bearing in mind the uncertainty of the clutch being the cause of juddering. Sorry Andy still haven't found a hill steep enough to test my lovely Murvi Morello. The only one near here is such if one is stuck at the bottom there is no way out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Perhaps we should consider the creation of a database of the make model and reg no of all these p/xed nearly new vans so that we can all avoid them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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