Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Clive]

Is that Paul or Patsy??

 

 

[AndyStothert]

Other Forums which apparently are airing this problem are:

 

www.wohnmobilforum.de

 

www.acpasion.net/foro

 

www.routard.com/recherche.asap

 

 

Tracker's point about the nearly new second hand market is actually quite worrying in a way. Well, any way you look at it really.

If they are all defective (which is looking the most likely scenario) then buying a second hand Fiat Ducato or Peugeot Boxer will be like buying a time bomb.

If they aren't all duff, just a significant proportion, well how are any of us going to be able to tell the difference?

Either way if the defect isn't addressed the problem is just going to grow daily with evey new motorhome emerging from the converters factories and workshops.

 

The total notified is now 71, and this is surely just the tip of the motorhome industry iceberg.

 

I've spoken to Fiat again today, and they won't admit that today is Wednesday, but I suspect that Fiat UK are as frustrated with the parent company's failure to deal with this as the motorhome manufacturers are going to be if it carries on much longer.

But none of them are nearly as frustrated as us silly mugs who own them.

 

I've been accused recently (mainly on the motorhomefacts forum apparently) of being too strident in my demands for everybody who owns a new model Ducato or Boxer to find a steep hill and reverse it up. So could you please, in your own time, when it suits you, and I'm not insisting, go and try it backwards up a steep hill. The 5 speed versions aren't as bad the 6 speed ones, but this is just degree of defect we're talking here. Thank you so much.

If you find the juddering a less than pleasant experience then email me

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

[Guest Tracker]

Andy I wouldn't worry too much about the motorhomefacts forum if I were you!

 

THIS ONE is the only serious Motorhome forum - and with the added value of a sense of humour!

[Shaun]

If I were you, I wouldn't underestimate MHF. The readership is vast and there are some very knowledgeable contributors. Try sitting on it for a while and just watch the sheer number of posts accumulate each and every day, which cover a significant number of motorhome-related topics. You need these people on your side, and suggesting they don't matter is a very quick way to lose their support. A good number of them follow this site also and will have contributed to its poll and feedback regarding the judder problem.

 

Shaun

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2008-04-03 9:58 AM

 

Andy I wouldn't worry too much about the motorhomefacts forum if I were you!

 

THIS ONE is the only serious Motorhome forum - and with the added value of a sense of humour!

 

What a daft comment this one is, MHF are far more active than this forum. However no forum is going to have much success they are all followed by to few people. The only way to put pressure on is to get publicity in national press, including M/H mags. and TV. This is what Andy and others are trying to do. I have now changed my mind on this subject, followers will know I have been very sceptical about the problem, but no more, my reasons I will post when I have more facts.

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2008-04-03 9:58 AM

 

Andy I wouldn't worry too much about the motorhomefacts forum if I were you!

 

THIS ONE is the only serious Motorhome forum - and with the added value of a sense of humour!

 

 

[Hatikvah]

I have been following this thread for a while as my husband and I have ordered a new motorhome on the Fiat Chassis 2.3, we are new to motorhoming and are retiring in October. After buying MMM magazine and Practical Motorhome we based our decision on the fact that this chassis was highly praised. What I am going to say doesnt offer a lot of hope fpr people who have already handed over all their hard earned cash, but from past experiences ( having had double glazing taken out and successfully replaced and dealing with a badly constructed conservatory with a satisfactory result), the answer to anyone who has ordered is DO NOT HAND OVER ALL YOUR MONEY OWING UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED THAT THE VEHICLE HAS NO MAJOR DEFECT. We knew nothing of this problem when we ordered and I am very pleased I found this forum, I have already told my dealer that I know and of course he more or less blamed it on drivers tecqnique. Well I dont drive, but my husband has driven fire engines tls rescue units and 44 ton articulated vehicles for 35 yrs, like most fireman he has 2 jobs, he has never had an accident, so i am confident that he will know whether there is a fault or not. Let me say I will never accept a vehicle or anything else that has a major fault, and I am very strong and determined with any matter that affects my life savings or anything that i have handed over hard earned money for. Its ok fiat saying it is normal, well I for one will not accept that. Its the same with everything there may be thousands of washing machines of the make you have bought and you may be unlucky and get one of the bad ones, but We expect to either get it fixed satisfactorily or get a new one or a refund. Let me also state that from past experience with Trading standards, if there is a defect which you state is there from new your warranty does not start until whatever it is is in perfect working order whether it is a faulty part or a design fault. I have been in this position and ended up with it being replaced. So once again anybody having ordered one , dont hand over all your money until satisfied, for the others register the defect from new and your warranty continues until it is in proper working order, and as regards tolerences you say it is unaccaptable. Good luck we may all need it, but while I have the money I have the power.

[michele]

rupert123 - 2008-04-03 11:37 AM

 

Tracker - 2008-04-03 9:58 AM

 

Andy I wouldn't worry too much about the motorhomefacts forum if I were you!

 

THIS ONE is the only serious Motorhome forum - and with the added value of a sense of humour!

 

What a daft comment this one is, MHF are far more active than this forum. However no forum is going to have much success they are all followed by to few people. The only way to put pressure on is to get publicity in national press, including M/H mags. and TV. This is what Andy and others are trying to do. I have now changed my mind on this subject, followers will know I have been very sceptical about the problem, but no more, my reasons I will post when I have more facts.

 

I don't think it serves anyone or the thread to get into a he said she said debate its childish . If the M/Home forum contributors think that Andy is strident SO who cares whats wrong with strident .

This is childish behaviour rather than supporting each other which would be far more fitting all being M/homers and that . just my opinion

[Hatikvah]

here is a good link advising of your rightshttp://www.berr.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

Take note in the Facts Q1 What is an inherent fault, explains everything print off and show to your dealer.

[AndyStothert]

Michele is absolutely right - what matters here is putting pressure on Fiat and Peugeot from wherever we can dig it up from.

I've been thinking about the Motorhomefacts forum for a while and whilst I haven't got the time available for another 'strident' campaign on another forum I wondered if perhaps anyone using both would like to take on the challenge.

What matters is getting Fiat and Peugeot to bite the bullet and find a fix for these vans rather than any inter-forum competitiveness or petty territorial squabbles. I think its a bloke thing - this instinct to compete.

Only the thick in skin and brain need apply..............

email me if you fancy a go and I'll supply all the facts - something which hasn't yet got on the other forum.

 

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

rupert123 - 2008-04-03 2:07 PM

 

Tracker - 2008-04-03 9:58 AM

 

Andy I wouldn't worry too much about the motorhomefacts forum if I were you!

 

THIS ONE is the only serious Motorhome forum - and with the added value of a sense of humour!

 

 

Get a sense of humour Henry and learn to recognise a wind up when you see one!

[Mel B]

Richard, can I suggest that if it is meant in humour that you use a smilie to show it as such. It is not always easy to tell.:-S

 

Your posting actually could be construde, and was it seems, taken as being insulting, and I can actually see why. 8-)

 

Remember that not everyone on here knows your daft sense of humour. There are a lot of new members now who need to be educated on how silly you can be .... :D

[michele]

Nil carborundum illegitimi.

[Guest Tracker]

michele - 2008-04-03 8:54 PM

 

Nil carborundum illegitimi.

 

Don't worry Michele - they won't!

[rowley]

Andy, motorhomefacts is covering the judder. It has a sticky on the chassis problems. Your petition has been pushed several times as well.

[Guest Tracker]

In this month's 'Motor Caravanner' magazine which is the official monthly journal of the Motor Caravanners Club there is an interesting article on page 22 referring to Andy's problems with his van in particular and to Ducato's etc reversing problems in general.

 

Full marks to MCC for being the first Club to take up the cudgels on our behalf by printing an editorially approved article as opposed to a reader's letter.

 

I am not knocking reader's letters but editorially approved articles by an established named author, Jim Bancroft in this case, might perhaps carry more weight than the views of a reader?

 

Well done and thanks to MCC.

 

If you are not already a member they do have a very good rally programme!

[AndyStothert]

Today's rant concerns a conversation I had with Fiat Customer Care yesterday. Customer Care? I think not, but anyway, the Executive chap there is getting quite chatty with me now, and is prepared to discuss anything but my juddering van. 'Nice photos' he says, and he 's been looking at my website too, and asked where we're going in Europe this summer (he's been looking at the forum too, so behave yourselves) and stuff like that.

'My case has been closed' I tell him. And it has - Fiat have closed my complaint case.

'But you haven't told me yet what conclusions you came to about my vehicle from the test on February 21?'

Pause............

'No' he says. And that was about to be the end of it, but I pushed a bit harder.

'Well? What conclusions have you arrived at?'

'None, we're waiting for a written report from the dealer'

So I asked him if he'd asked for one?

'No' he replied. I was getting a touch baffled here, but what the hell.

 

'So is there a system or mechanism you have for written reports in these circumstances?' I asked.

'No, we do it over the phone'.

'But you've been told that the clutch smokes and that it judders over the phone haven't you?'

 

'Yes, but we want it in writing' he replied.

'So are you going to ask for a written report then?' says I, thinking that Fiat World in Slough must be a very strange place.

 

'Oh no, I'm not going to ask for one'

 

And honestly that was the conversation.

 

What on earth is going on at Fiat? Is it some kind of psychological warfare? They obviously haven't realised that it doesn't work on thick notherners.

[Brian Kirby]

I'm still not convinced this issue has yet fully grown its legs.  It is fairly clear the vans are causing problems across Europe, but I suspect two things are still limiting the level of complaint.

First: these are still relatively new vehicles, so not that many will yet have been delivered, although the peak delivery season should now be in full swing.  On this count alone, expect the numbers complaining to grow over the next few weeks and months.

Second: many folk don't use their vans, or don't use them much, until the weather warms up.  Once that happens (softly, softly, catchee monkey!), and the new vans get used in anger, expect more people to notice problems reversing.

If the present mumbling grows to a crescendo, and I'd fully expect that at least from Germany, the motorhome converters will really have a problem on their hands, because people will start saying "don't get a Sevel based van".  They will then begin to see a fall off in orders, and greater resistance to the Sevel brands.  They will pressure the Sevel consortium to modify the driving characteristics, or they will have to switch base platform in their own interests, to protect their reputations.

I have no idea where this will run to, but run I am sure it will.  I would expect 2009 to begin to see a switch to Ford and Renault particularly, since the prices are approximately similar to the Sevels, but maybe more of the higher range vehicles based on Sprinters/Crafters, some on Ivecos, possibly even a few on the new LDV base.  Once the cat is out of the bag I suspect commercial sales will also fall off, so Fiat et al have a lot of work to do over the next few months if they want to maintain their present market share.  The switch won't be that quick, you can't just double production from an existing factory, but if the competition senses a fair wind, expect new investment to follow, and production capacity to start rising.  These Sevel vans are now, quite widely, on probation and have to be radically improved to survive.  That no quick fix has been proffered rather suggests the consortium either has a suicide wish, or there will be a very rapid Mk 2 introduced, doubtless with "new" engines, to seek to repair the product's reputation.  What that may mean for those with the Mk 1 vans, who knows, but knowing what I now know, I don't think I'd buy one at present and would probably cancel in favour of a non-Sevel base if I'd ordered.  However that's just me!

[rupert123]

Brian Kirby - 2008-04-04 7:49 PM

I'm still not convinced this issue has yet fully grown its legs.  It is fairly clear the vans are causing problems across Europe, but I suspect two things are still limiting the level of complaint.

First: these are still relatively new vehicles, so not that many will yet have been delivered, although the peak delivery season should now be in full swing.  On this count alone, expect the numbers complaining to grow over the next few weeks and months.

Second: many folk don't use their vans, or don't use them much, until the weather warms up.  !

Brian I always read your posts, normally well thought out and informative, this one is not, I have changed sides on this but am not blinkered. The new Ducato has been out some 18 months now, just over twelve in UK, last year over 10,000 sold in UK, 130,000 in Europe, total sales must now be over 300,000. Major UK motorhome maker is Swift and all their vans are based on Fiat, can they change, in long term of course but short term no chance. Also on the major UK motorhome forum they are not as convinced, in fact lastest posts suggest most are happy with their Fiat based vehicles and think a change in driving style is the answer. Swift are well aware of this but no statement from them yet so they either do not consider it a worry or are keeping their talks with Fiat to them selves, it would be nice to hear from them as they are only UK maker who are in the position to put any pressure on.

[Tomo3090]

If the sevel producers do eventually admit there is a problem and a re-designed engine/gearbox/clutch does appear, then surely under consumer legislation they have to upgrade all the older ones because they have an admitted fault? As a previous poster has stated trading standards should be the next port of call after the dealers.

 

Has anyone taken the issue up with them to see what is the situation with any defective vans? If not I will contact them on Monday and report back.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

The "vans" I was referring to, Henry, were the motorhomes, which I should have written as 'vans - but dropped the apostrophe - rather than panel vans.  Sorry for the confusion. 

There are not yet that many Sevel based motorhomes on the roads, and in use, compared to the numbers that will be around by the end of this summer, that was my point.  2007 was the first production year for motorhomes based on the new vehicle bases, with quite heavy delays to the first vans coming through, due both to production difficulties and heavy demand.  Many buyers got theirs late in the season. 

There has to date, therefore, been only one season's experience of these vehicles, in relatively small numbers.  I therefore anticipate more unease, as more vans are driven more miles by more people, but we shall have to wait and see.

It seems beyond doubt that there is a problem, the adverse commentary is too widespread.  I agree that the majority do appear happy (but how can we really know this: they have not, to my knowledge, spoken)  but that, is not really the point.  The point, surely, is the apparently sizable minority who appear very unhappy, and who are saying so loud and long.

Could Swift change base vehicles if they so chose?  Well, they just have, to accommodate the new Sevel bases.  Developing new body fairings to mate with another base vehicle is not that complex, though mating with the electronics may be more of a problem.  However, that has not prevented the German manufacturer Tikro, who have relatively small production, offering you the same van layout on your choice of Sevel, Crafter or Sprinter (the latter two, I accept, being non-identical clones) to choice.  Swift (and others) wouldn't take such a decision lightly, because it would be costly, but they always fiddle with something or other each year.  I think, if I were in their shoes, I'd be working on (for example) a Renault based offer, and then allow the market to decide where it wants to go, rather than stick to Sevel in the hope the fuss will all just subside.  However, as I've said above, we shall just have to wait and see where it runs.  Watch this space.  It seems we live in interesting times!

[Shaun]

Brian, a couple of points in response to what you've said. You would no doubt acknowledge that it's a fact of life that those with the problem will make more noise than those who don't. It's, therefore, to be expected that on forums such as this, those with the judder will make their voices heard louder than those who don't. I have watched with interest as those who don't feel they have the problem, have had their findings dismissed along the lines of "you either work for Fiat or you haven't done the uphill reverse test properly."

 

Well, to redress the balance somewhat, in recent days I and a couple of others deliberately sought out a suitable hill, to test our 2007 Ducatos - in my case, two. I regularly walk up them and I'm quite out of breath when I reach the top. Let's say they're steep. Anyway, all of us did controlled tests and came to exactly the same conclusions.

 

Firstly, I should mention that on a modest incline in reverse, I experienced no judder whatsoever. Mine is a six-speed gearbox, said to be the most prone to juddering.

 

On the steeper slopes, the van, in my case, and 'vans, in their case, could induce the judder fairly easily. But, none of us thought it excessive, given that we were trying to haul over three tonnes of motorhome up an incline.

 

What was observed was that the judder would be induced if the engine was given some welly (I was at 2000 revs), the clutch was allowed to bite, then the handbrake was released. The clutch then had to be ridden to control speed.

 

OK, this clearly wasn't the best way to do it. So, the next time, I tried tickover speed and let the clutch in all the way. The van moved off, but I suspect it might have stalled, so I gave it a little more. I found the optimum combination for my van was 1000 revs with the clutch fully engaged. This allowed me to reverse at 5 mph with absolutely no judder, over quite some distance. The other testers all found much the same.

 

When we reported our findings, other forum users over the past couple of days, have responded to the effect that they also used the same method, with little or no judder.

 

You may recall that Johns Cross Motorhomes has maintained for some time that they reverse new Ducatos up inclines all the time, relying on low revs, clutch fully out and a low reverse speed. Yes, this seemed to be contrary to Fiat's advice to rev the nuts off them (thus inducing a burning clutch), but that dealership has found the opposite to apply. Myself and two other testers in the last couple of days have also found this to be the case.

 

No-one is disputing that some owners have far greater problems, but many of us believe that by no means all Ducatos (and stablemates) are affected. Going back to your pondering as to the numbers involved, Brian, it clearly will be difficult to tell unless everyone does an uphill reverse test and posts their findings in the same place. That won't happen because most people who don't perceive there to be a problem, won't bother posting. What I'm saying is that three out of three forum users, have recently performed the uphill reverse test and whilst acknowledging that it was easy enough to induce the judder, it was also easy enough to control it.

 

Shaun

 

 

[Rayjsj]

Just a thought on this problem, most manufacturers have more than one source for components, clutches for instance, could it be that it is a supplier rather than Sevel (Fiat etc.,)that has produced a 'Dud' ? that would explain why some are affected and some not. If that WAS the case why would they not 'Point the finger' at the culprit ? I refuse to accept the 'Poor driver skill' argument. These vehicles should stand up to vastly differant degrees of driver prowess without destroying the gearbox !!

If 'Low Mass clutches' are unsuitable for heavy vehicles ?? don't use them. :D

[AndyStothert]

Saun,

Please don't take this as being dismissive, nor am I accusing you of working for Fiat but don't you think that having to experiment with different driving styles to avoid something which you acknowledge to be there is a slightly odd thing to have to do? Surely what you're doing is attempting to mitigate the effects of the juddering. It shouldn't be there in the first place.

Having driven many (many) of these base vehicles and now having an almost intimate relationship with the clutch and the various ways of reducing the juddering I'm pretty sure your hill test wasn't on a sufficiently steep incline to leave you no choice but to use higher revs whilst releasing the clutch, and importantly, with bends in it requiring you to, in places continually slip the clutch to keep the speed down to below that of the reversing speed at tickover.

The true reversing speed of the 120/130 models is 4.8 mph per 1000 rpm, which at tickover is about 4 mph. This is (in my opinion) far too fast to be reversing in some situations (into tight parking spaces, steep driveways etc) and on very steep hills with bends in them. And on these very steep inclines if the clutch has to be slipped continually there isn't really any way of eliminating the judder if the incline is very steep. As you found out at tickover they simply stall on gradients steeper than 1 in 8.

Unlike other owners who have just took their vans to a steepish looking hill and tried reversing it up I've tried loads of them in a specific place where I know the exact gradients, and the road has a bend in it which requires slowing to walking pace to negotiate it safely. The results have been very consistent. All this was done before I went near the forums.

There are now 73 owners who know a fault when they experience it, and feel that it needs sorting out.

Fiat are privately admitting that there is indeed a defect and they say that they are currently working on a solution, but will need pushing all the way if owners of current vans are to be included in the solution to this problem - rather than just quietly make the changes to production vehicles and try to ignore the previous customers. This is big bad complicated world we live in and sometimes things aren't quite so simple as they appear. Much of what Fiat have to say and the evasive way that complaining customers are being treated (when push comes to shove, and the customer insists on action) is much more revealing than anything I or you can say about this.

Meanwhile I think your adoption of differing techniques to lessen the juddering is something we all have to learn and use in the short term.

Or stay away from steep places of course - something I'm personally not prepared to do on long term basis (but maybe for now) as these are the very places a lot of us buy a motorhome to visit. Should Fiat not be able to solve this probelm in the long term I will reluctantly be forced to buy another van. Reluctant because, otherwise this van is a pleasure to use, and also because it will cost me thousands to do so. And it ain't my fault - it's Fiats - so why should I and all the others, have to pick up the bill?

 

[rupert123]

Fair enough Brian, but the 'white van man' vehicles will still have same problem, while most will probably not care a lot are privately owned and they surely will. Swift however will certainly have forward buying contracts and would not be able to change easily, their is no comparison between Swift and the small makers that abound both here and in Europe. Certainly by the time they could change this will be sorted out. I am of the opinion Fiat will sort it out and if expensive will not say anything until forced to. The only way forward is to keep pressure on.