Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Mel B]

I shall keep my eye on the Swift compound nearby and if I spot any 'non Fiat' bases I'll let you all know ...... B-)

[colinfrier]

Hi

I have read many posts that talk about various reversing technique.Let's presume as is reasonable that the vast majority of drivers are experienced and old hands at driving such vehicles. It therefore occurs to me that small differences in driving produce the problem or not as the case may be there must be an inherent fault and if driving methods are the root cause then why did FIAT not give full instructions on how these vehicles should be reversed in the handbook.

Come on lets all get behind the campaign to get FIAT to own up to the problem and fix it and stop fannying about finding reasons to vindicate the makers from their liability you may be sorry one day.

Colin Frier

[Guest Tracker]

I will never be sorry I bought one because I ain't gonna buy one!

 

If enough of us take that approach Fiat will soon learn the errors of their ways because the converters will stop buying the base vehicles until they clear their stocks and Fiat will have lots of unsold Ducatos lined up in muddy fields or windswept airfields awaiting an eventual buyer.

 

Caveat Emptor!

[Shaun]

Er, Andy, you already did suggest a little while ago that I worked for Fiat, and you dismissed my reverse test as not having been done properly. Actually, you're still suggesting I haven't done it properly, so clearly I need territory which would thwart a mountain goat!

 

Actually, Andy, I feel your latest response is the most measured for a long time. I believe it's what your whole campaign should be concentrating on and not some of the stuff on here which has come across to me and others as excessive, with all manner of dark prophesies about crashing Ducato values and mass-avoidance of this chassis. Such claims are pure conjecture and whilst they might just have the desired effect - ie, to put off prospective buyers, so as to make Fiat see sense, they can also rankle with those who've bought into this chassis. Clearly they aren't going to support any attempt to talk down the market and thus their investment.

 

Anyhow, in response to some of your statements above:

 

No, I didn't reverse up a hill which also happened to have twists and turns - but one of the other chaps did and he still easily controlled the judder. He actually made a point of that aspect in his report.

 

For my test, when I let the clutch in on my van, I upped the revs slightly, simply because I imagined it would stall if I didn't, not because of any actual indication that it was about to. However, since my test, others have mentioned that when the clutch is let out fully, the revs should automatically increase to cope with the load, without having to use the accelerator. This I don't know, but would like to try that bit again. I know you won't agree with that suggestion, given your extensive testing.

 

You've asked whether I think "having to experiment with different driving styles to avoid something which you acknowledge to be there is a slightly odd thing to have to do? Surely what you're doing is attempting to mitigate the effects of the juddering. It shouldn't be there in the first place."

 

In answer to that I would say many of us feel that motorhomes, being big and heavy, a bit of judder is to be expected. Adapting our technique on the Fiat is similar to the answer to the propensity of new Transits to stall - owners have had to adapt. In an ideal world, vans shouldn't judder and clearly plenty of people have or have had vehicles which don't or didn't. But, no chassis is perfect and the Ducato has so many virtues that if it can be 'trained' to behave, I and others feel it's worth it.

 

However, I can appreciate, Andy, that you have suffered severe juddering, resulting in damage to your van - others too. You also need a vehicle which can cope with terrain involving steep hills - clearly steeper than the rather steep ones I've recently reversed up. But, I haven't had to reverse up a steep hill in over a decade. In fact, I actually can't remember when I've ever had to do this since I passed my test in 1977 - and certainly not in over three tonnes of vehicle.

 

So, if my van has a tendency to judder, but it can be contained quite easily by judicious use of clutch and throttle, in a test situation which I can't actually remember ever encountering before in normal driving conditions, then you will perhaps understand why myself and others are not as perturbed as you by this particular facet of the new Ducato. It could be argued that if any buyer has the specific need to go mountain climbing, the Fiat Ducato, etc, should not be on the shortlist. Fair dos. For those of us who envisage more mundane touring, then there perhaps there's not the same need to avoid this particular chassis.

 

Personally, I was more put off by the Transit's stalling characteristic - something, I felt would affect me much more often, as I'm regularly in stop/start traffic. Yet, those who have them, have insisted it's just a question of altering driving technique to accommodate the characteristic. So posing the same question to your goodself: Should they really have to do that?

 

Where I feel more in tune with your concerns is when you mention the need to reverse uphill, slowly and with the utmost control. In these situations, if riding the clutch is a necessity, then the chance of juddering might well be greater. I can certainly see how that could be a big issue for those who regularly have to do just that. My drive is steep and I had to adapt my technique, so as not to hit the garage door. I learned how not to burn the clutch, not to shoot backwards and not to make the van judder. But because it was all a bit of a faff, now, I simply go forward up the drive, then reverse (downhill) out of the drive.

 

At the end of the day, it's for each of us to decide how much we're affected by this issue. I've felt it necessary to redress the balance, because I regularly encounter other forum members who are pleased with their new Ducato and who can live with any judder their vehicle might exhibit, when balanced alongside its many merits. However, if there is a recall concerning this 'characteristic,' I suspect we will gladly join the queue to have it removed.

 

Shaun

[Guest Tracker]

For me whether or not the van will or will not reverse up a steep hill is far less of an issue than the potential for catastrophic, expensive and inconvenient mechanical failure out of warranty.

 

All due because of the potential for undue strain to have been applied to the transmission by a driver forced to carry out a difficult backwards steep uphill curved manoeuvre - similar to that which many people need to do to get their prized possession back into their own driveways?

 

I wonder how long I would have to wait for a new gearbox whilst on holiday in Spain for example?

 

Alarmist - maybe?

 

Cautious - yes!

 

Cynical - absolutely!

[AndyStothert]

Saun

You're missing the point - they should all be capable of being used anywhere on tarmac where they are allowed to be used.

Alright it may not affect you as you don't go anywhere hilly or remote - but what about the man who buys it from you - are you going to tell him/her that the Fiat Ducato is lovely vehicle to drive, but it can't do steep hills backwards?

Voices like yours can only encourage Fiat and Peugeot to think they can get away with continuing to produce a vehicle which has engineering shortcomings.

So get busy on motrohomefacts encouraging everybody to make this defect more widely known in the short term in the hope that it will be sorted out for the long term.

[Shaun]

It's Shaun, Andy, not Saun. That's twice, but I forgive you. Maybe you're just mad at me.

 

I don't agree that I'm missing the point; I'm just not agreeing with some of your points. I might well visit up and down terrain, as I have no intention of limiting my travels to the likes of Norfolk. However, I don't think my gearbox or clutch will break, as I've reversed up what I perceived to be a steep incline and controlled what little judder there was with relative ease. Others did the same - one of them with twist-turny bits also.

 

I'm not going to tell a prospective purchaser that my van can't do steep hills backwards, because I believe it can. If he/she doesn't trust my judgement, I can demonstrate up my local steep incline. I wouldn't be able to cross my heart and say that my van would be able to climb any hill anywhere in the world, but then which buyer comes around asking such questions or with such expectations?

 

Motorhomefacts continues to debate this issue, so it's very much out in the open. It lobbied tirelessly to have Fiat rectify the water ingress issue, and the pages of related posts, dwarfs this one by a large margin. I suspect that so soon after the 'complimentary water feature' which came with last year's Ducatos, there's just not the collective energy to start another war with Fiat so soon.

 

The vast majority of the commentary on MHF, in relation to the judder issue, is by those who have new Ducatos, or they're about to take delivery, or they're in the market for one. So, like yourself, and me, they are directly involved. However, what we're seeing on this forum here is much negative comment from people who don't have one and who don't want one. But, this can only be said by the same people so many times. There's no shock value any more in rubbishing the Ducato and painting a picture of doom and gloom for the secondhand market. Ducato owners on MHF who might have been your allies towards Fiat are put off by all of this and just won't get involved. They feel their motorhomes devalue enough as it is without people setting out to destroy the market for them.

 

It might be time for a different approach, Andy.

 

Shaun

[parkmoy]

But, this can only be said by the same people so many times. There's no shock value any more in rubbishing the Ducato and painting a picture of doom and gloom for the secondhand market. Ducato owners on MHF who might have been your allies towards Fiat are put off by all of this and just won't get involved. They feel their motorhomes devalue enough as it is without people setting out to destroy the market for them.

 

What a ridiculous comment! It's not the people who are now not interested in buying a Sevel based motorhome that are destroying the secondhand market for current owners, it's Fiat. What do you suggest?, We all ignore it, buy secondhand Ducatos when the time comes and if the gearbox/clutch breaks pay up and smile? That's alright then, at least we haven't destroyed the market for them.

 

I feel very sorry for any current owner. They are in a terrible position and any backing I can give them, I will. But not to the extent of ignoring the problem and possibly throwing my hard earned cash down the drain. I'm sure everyone, especially Andy, would be only too glad to be proved wrong

by Fiat et al.

 

If ,as you seem to think, this problem is non existent or at worst an easily overcome characteristic why doesn't Fiat come out and rebut Andy's allegations publicly?

[Owner of Miss Elsie]

This is my first post.

Have a Burstner Marano T580 on the Fiat chassis.

I had to reverse it up a hill of approximately 1 in 8 gradient yesterday afternoon. The total distance was 4 van lengths. The result was a cloud of white smoke from the clutch. One mile later the clutch pedal lost all resistance and I lost almost all power on a dangerous bend. The van has been recovered via Fiat Assistance and is languishing in a compound awaiting delivery to a Fiat Dealer on Monday.

Good luck to all of you who do not (or will not admit to a problem).

The vehicle should be 'Fit for purpose'

In my case it certainly is not.

My 'investment' for our retirement is looking a little sick!

 

Keep up the pressure everyone.

[rupert123]

Owner of Miss Elsie - 2008-04-06 2:01 PM

 

This is my first post.

Have a Burstner Marano T580 on the Fiat chassis.

I had to reverse it up a hill of approximately 1 in 8 gradient yesterday afternoon. The total distance was 4 van lengths. The result was a cloud of white smoke from the clutch. One mile later the clutch pedal lost all resistance and I lost almost all power on a dangerous bend. The van has been recovered via Fiat Assistance and is languishing in a compound awaiting delivery to a Fiat Dealer on Monday.

Good luck to all of you who do not (or will not admit to a problem).

The vehicle should be 'Fit for purpose'

In my case it certainly is not.

My 'investment' for our retirement is looking a little sick!

 

Keep up the pressure everyone.

 

This is an odd post and I would be interested in knowing the outcome. Why should any clutch burn out in such a short distance, why would it lose resistance on peddle even if it did and why would van lose power?

[Brian Kirby]

This last post rather neatly makes a point I was going to make.

This debate seems to be dividing between two entrenched camps: those who have experienced the juddering, and those who have not.

Those who experience it seem very deeply impressed by their experience, so I assume it is something out of the ordinary; certainly something they have never experienced before, and something that deeply worries them.  Having spent £40,000 or so for the pleasure of the experience, I can understand that!

Some of those who have not experienced this juddering are tending, intentionally or otherwise, to take a very dismissive attitude towards those who have.  There is a very apparent, implied, criticism of driving technique.  A sort of "ah, but if you just knew how to drive properly this wouldn't be happening to you", kind of response.  At the very least this is arrogant, and discounts the possibility that these rather smug non-judderers are just lucky, and haven't yet experienced what the judderers are experiencing.  A bit of "there but for the grace of God" might not come amiss, methinks!

Equally, the judderers are apparently so convinced the problem is rooted in the van, that they are reluctant to believe the non-judderers have not yet found the "right" hill, under the "right" circumstances, to provoke juddering.

Before this all degenerates into a slanging match - which sadly seems not too far off - can we just pause to take breath?  Is it so unthinkable that some vans are afflicted, while others are not?  Might it not be worthwhile comparing notes on a more generous and trusting basis?  Could the non-judderers not accept that the judderers are correct when they say their vans judder whatever techniques they try to apply?  Can they not trust that those who are affected drive at least as well as may reasonably be expected of any experienced, qualified, driver?  Could they not accept that, perhaps, their van does not judder because it just happens to be missing some unfortunate combination of assembly tolerances or components that causes the judder - over which all their presumed masterful driving techniques would have little to no influence if their van were so affected?

And could the judderers not accept that those whose vans do not judder do not do so for like reasons, and not merely because they have not yet tried reversing up quite the right hill?

You see, it just occurs to me that if these differences between individual vans can be accepted, that acceptance may turn out to be to the advantage of all. 

If not all vans judder, and especially if the majority don't, Fiat's dismissal of the judder as a characteristic of the vehicle surely doesn't hold water.  If the majority don't judder when reversed, does this not leave juddering as abnormal behaviour?

Put a slightly different way, if some judder, while others don't, is there not a difference?  Does this not place Fiat under an obligation to explain that difference, and to clarify whether the judder, or its absence, is the intended characteristic?  Should they not either fix the judderers, or alter the non-judderers make them judder as intended?  Yes, yes, I know that last bit is silly - but I've only added it to illustrate the unsustainability of Fiat's position.

So come on you non-judderers, help your juddering colleagues to get their problem resolved.  Don't just insult them by implying they the judder is their fault, because they can't drive.

[Mel B]

Sorry to hear of your Marano problem, I hope you get it sorted quickly and permanently so you can enjoy your new pride and joy.

 

Shaun (hope I spelt that right! :D ), can you please tell us what the gradient of the slope was that you and your friends reversed up please, that may help to shed some light on why you are content to accept your judder.

 

No vehicle, though, should judder, forwards or backwards. If it was a new car it wouldn't be acceptable so why should it be acceptable on a motorhome? The chassis, mechanicals etc are supposedly designed to take the weight that a motorhome body places on it, or the 'caravan components' of a panel van conversion, so none of them should judder at all.

 

I used to have a 2003 Fiat Ducato 2.3 JTD (outgoing model) Rapido 709F, only 5.53 metres (yes ... I still miss it! :-( ). But when we first got it it had a problem with the clutch going up the chocs, forwards or backwards, they were not large ones, just the standard Fiamma sized ones, we had smoke and smelly clutch every time we had to use them. We used to try to avoid using them and in the end they had some lovely holidays with us whilst they languished under the fixed bed! It was only after a lot of miles had been put on the vehicle that the clutch was more 'user friendly' and worn it that we could use them without stinking the campsites out, but it was never brilliant but not a major problem either ... the judder, however, on these new vehilcles, is much more significant as it restricts the normal use of the vehicle, ie reversing on the highway and is, in my opinion, a serious fault which needs urgent rectification.

 

Whether all Fiats are affected, I don't know, I haven't got the time nor the funds to do a full survey to find out, but I have no doubt that the people who are having problems with them are totally serious - no one likes to moan about their new 'pride and joy', they'd much rather show it off. Similarly, if you are content with yours and accept the judder, that is your perogative, me, with the small by comparison problem we encountered with our Fiat previously, well, I'd be rather more concerned.

 

 

[Mel B]

Grrr ... Brian blocked me out and got in first!

 

;-)

[Owner of Miss Elsie]

Perhaps I should clarify. The loss of power was not a loss of power from the engine, it was loss of power to the wheels. i.e the clutch was slipping.

You may well ask why this should happen after reversing such a short distance! Surely this is the basic question we should be asking Fiat.

[Owner of Miss Elsie]

Brian

I always read your replies with interest.

Perhaps we can all learn from your sense of reason.

David

[AndyStothert]

Can I just sum up a few facts:

 

To date I have had 79 owners of the new Fiat and Peugeot contact me and express their concern about their juddering vans.

5 of these have part exchanged their vehicles after what they considered an unsatisfactory response from Fiat about this issue.

Of those responses the vast majority were vehicles fitted with the 6 speed box. But not all.

6 have suffered clutch failure whilst reversing up a hill.

4 (including ours) have sustained gearbox damage. One of these couldn't be sure if he was reversing uphill immediately beforehand.

Several owners were told by thier local dealer (us included) that the vehicle required immediate remedial action to cure the juddering which Fiat would not sanction because there is no known cure.

Mike Hoodless offfered Fiat an independent report - they refused it.

Peter Davies took his into the dealers and they were so concerned they stripped it down without consulting Fiat. It is still juddering just the same and Fiat say it is 'normal'

Our is a very strange case as Fiat tested it for the second time 6 weeks ago, and were told by the dealer that it did not fall within the operating parameters set down by Fiat in their latest judder test. In other words it is defective. But Fiat now refuse to discuss their conclusions of the test.

Fiat refuse to make any official statements to anyone about this whole matter.

 

Judge for yourselves.

 

If anyone feels like putting this on the motorhomefacts forum unabridged feel free to do so.

 

 

[fred grant]

Brian Kirby - 2008-04-06 3:20 PMarify whether the judder, or its absence, is the intended characteristic?  Should they not either fix the judderers, or alter the non-judderers make them judder as intended?  Yes, yes, I know that last bit is silly - but I've only added it to illustrate the unsustainability of Fiat's position.

So come on you non-judderers, help your juddering colleagues to get their problem resolved.  Don't just insult them by implying they the judder is their fault, because they can't drive.

oh bri my biddy, you do talk dirty, but we do like you. flybynitefred

[cronkle]

Brian Kirby - 2008-04-06 3:20 PM

So come on you non-judderers, help your juddering colleagues to get their problem resolved.  Don't just insult them by implying they the judder is their fault, because they can't drive.

Brian, Then would it not make sense for some of those owners who say they have mastered the art of reversing their vehicle up hills to try to do the same in one of the vehicles that has been identified as having a problem?If they can't do it then it would show that the individual vehicle has a fault.If they can then it would at least demonstrate how these arguably sensitive vehicles would need to be driven so as not to do further damage whilst they are the subject of discussion with Fiat.

[Guest Tracker]

Perhaps everyone with a new Ducato / Boxer based van, judderer or not, and who is able to attend the Peterborough Show could arrange to meet at pre determined time and place to compare notes and meet one and other?

 

Will you be there Andy - if not someone else with a vested interest might like to 'chair' and record the meeting in order that someone takes notes and details so that the exercise does not go unrecorded?

 

Unfortunately Peterborough is not famed for it's hills for suitable test reverses - unless anyone knows of a steep hill in the area?

[colin]

I'm someone who has reversed a Citreon van up a steep slope several times with no juddering,BUT, it was a virtualy empty panel van, so it would seem weight is an issue and Fiat have confirmed this in their press statement to Whatvan, they state that it applies to bad designed bodies fitted to chassis cabs that are over weight!

Lets consider that point, the MTW of a 3.5t van is 6t, and that is what it should be capperble of, are they seriously suggesting manufacturers are designing vans that over 2.5t overweight? by the way all you motorhome manufacturers, Fiat by that statement are blaming you!

Then their other statement “It's not something that's been raised with us recently, but it's something we've seen in the past" REALLY! so nobody has complained about it recently, say this year!

I'll take a guess at what the problem is, dual mass flywheel, other manufacturers have had problems with these including Ford and MB and the simptens sound similair.

Why am I so interested? well I've yet to find a van to beat the Twin for my purposes, and I will be towing with it, so 5t all up will be normal, and from Fiat statement looks like clutch will not withstand that.

 

[rupert123]

Owner of Miss Elsie - 2008-04-06 6:07 PM

 

Perhaps I should clarify. The loss of power was not a loss of power from the engine, it was loss of power to the wheels. i.e the clutch was slipping.

You may well ask why this should happen after reversing such a short distance! Surely this is the basic question we should be asking Fiat.

 

What about loss of resistance on clutch peddle, this will not happen just from burning out plate?

[fred grant]

Tracker - 2008-04-06 7:49 PM

 

Perhaps everyone with a new Ducato / Boxer based van, judderer or not, and who is able to attend the Peterborough Show could arrange to meet at pre determined time and place to compare notes and meet one and other? QUOTE

 

too late my biddy, as already bin organised by the organisers by the looks of things me ansums. lets all support the enichative. it cood help andy the stoths case and thats the main thing i says.

 

see www.outandaboutlive/peterborough/motorhomereversingcompetition.com

 

sum big prizes i fancy. fred cant wait my luvvers.

 

forcitbakwordsfred

 

 

 

 

[michele]

You be taking your tractor then Fred or just Alice :D

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2008-04-06 7:49 PM Perhaps everyone with a new Ducato / Boxer based van, judderer or not, and who is able to attend the Peterborough Show could arrange to meet at pre determined time and place to compare notes and meet one and other? Will you be there Andy - if not someone else with a vested interest might like to 'chair' and record the meeting in order that someone takes notes and details so that the exercise does not go unrecorded? Unfortunately Peterborough is not famed for it's hills for suitable test reverses - unless anyone knows of a steep hill in the area?

True, but Malvern has some lovely hills!  Not sure what effect a collective "reverse in" might have on local traffic, though.  Still, roads blocked by ranks of motorhomes with burned out clutches/broken gearboxes might make the local news, or even the national news.  How about an X250 rally at the Western Motorhome Show at Malvern, with a ceremonial drive up the hill in reverse?  Laden vans, so a fair test.  Video cameras at the ready.  AA/RAC to observe in the interests of impartiality.  Fiat by invitation.  Motoring and motorhome press ditto (MMM + I suspect Diamond Dave, will be there anyhow).  Police, the Samaritans, Sally Army, or any others considered necessary in the interests of safety, moral support/ post traumatic stress councelling as desirable.  I'll pay if I can watch!  :-)

[AndyStothert]

Unfortunately I shan't be able to attend any of these Reverserama Spectaculars as I will probably be stuck half way down a mountain in the Pyrennees, or Alps.

Malvern is the place though. We may be going to Peterborough, but expect to be busy.

 

I haven't repeated the original message for a while but we may have new participants so if you have a new model Fiat or Peugeot based motorcaravan find a steep hill and try reversing it up.

If you aren't happy with any resulting judder in the transmission or Fiat's explanations for it, email me -

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

Is that moderate enough Brian? Not too demanding?