Brian Kirby Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Very tasteful Andy. Very tasteful! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Judder,Judder! Bump to the Top. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Spoke to trading standards today. They state that your contract as a purchaser is with the dealer not the manufacturer or the engine/chassis supplier. If you have a problem that the dealer refuses to deal with you should report it to the local trading standards officers along with the name & address of the dealer and your exact problem in writing outlining what it is, what's causing it and what, if any action has been taken to rectify the problem. The dealer saying that FIAT/Peugeot or whoever doesn't recognise the defect has no legal status under consumer law. The purchase must be fit for purpose and be safe. This doesn't matter whether the vehicle is new or used. If you buy from a private person then you need to speak to trading standards yourself as the law is slightly different, but still there none the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Tomo3090 - 2008-04-07 9:01 PM Spoke to trading standards today. They state that your contract as a purchaser is with the dealer not the manufacturer or the engine/chassis supplier. If you have a problem that the dealer refuses to deal with you should report it to the local trading standards officers along with the name & address of the dealer and your exact problem in writing outlining what it is, what's causing it and what, if any action has been taken to rectify the problem. The dealer saying that FIAT/Peugeot or whoever doesn't recognise the defect has no legal status under consumer law. The purchase must be fit for purpose and be safe. This doesn't matter whether the vehicle is new or used. And as I said above Fiat are blaming motorhome manufacturers anyway, so it seems best to get money back from dealer, as for those that have returned van to dealer and brought another, the dealer must be laughing their heads off, two lots of profit for selling a duf van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Warrington - centre of the known world? It's Dunsop Bridge, and so much nicer too. Everybody who knows not to what I refer just ignore that. We all have a contract with our dealers/or suppliers, and there is no getting away from that. But the procedures for rejecting the vehicle (which is where this leads if they can't fix it) are long winded and fraught with problems. It can take up to three years to sort out if the dealer (backed by Fiat or the manufacturer) resists the rejection and for all that time your motorhome can't be used. Sat on the driveway - not being able to use it, and nothing can be more frustrating. One of the forum users is in this exact positon and they are finding it very hard to swallow. Fiat et al know this, and this is why Trading Standards (etc) are useless to us. After considering everything, a cure (or a promise of a cure) is a lot more agreeable solution for most, as we can carry on travelling (carefully) until hopefully Fiat and Peugeot resolve this. If they don't well we're back to the chaos of a second hand market full of potential financial time bombs. I'm sorry if this prospect upsets some folk, but with so many affected (and this is probably still a tiny minority of them out there) we really have no other course of action than to try and hurt Fiat where it counts - in the market place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Why not then all go to one trading standards office, say the nearest to Fiat UK headquaters, 72 complains or whatever the latest number is should make someone sit up and take notice, well maybe as in my experience TS can be a hit and miss affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Tracker - 2008-04-06 7:49 PM Perhaps everyone with a new Ducato / Boxer based van, judderer or not, and who is able to attend the Peterborough Show could arrange to meet at pre determined time and place to compare notes and meet one and other? Will you be there Andy - if not someone else with a vested interest might like to 'chair' and record the meeting in order that someone takes notes and details so that the exercise does not go unrecorded? Unfortunately Peterborough is not famed for it's hills for suitable test reverses - unless anyone knows of a steep hill in the area?There's a couple of steep hills on the A605 from Thrapston to Peterborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 colin - 2008-04-07 9:50 PM Why not then all go to one trading standards office, say the nearest to Fiat UK headquaters, 72 complains or whatever the latest number is should make someone sit up and take notice, well maybe as in my experience TS can be a hit and miss affair. Tried this with scuttlegate and they will not entertain it. Different regions etc etc. Our experience of Trading Standards was bit of a disaster better with a free consultation with a lawyer most don't charge for first 30 mins. Oh if you are member of caravan club you can get free legal advice from them. Just need to look on website for telephone number. They do ask for your membership number to verify you are member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 If someone had the money they could always bring a class action case against Fiat. Backed up by the dealers and all the other complainants. Or they could all chip in and do it collectively. All it requires is the will, and the cash of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 peter - 2008-04-07 10:23 PM Tracker - 2008-04-06 7:49 PM Perhaps everyone with a new Ducato / Boxer based van, judderer or not, and who is able to attend the Peterborough Show could arrange to meet at pre determined time and place to compare notes and meet one and other? Will you be there Andy - if not someone else with a vested interest might like to 'chair' and record the meeting in order that someone takes notes and details so that the exercise does not go unrecorded? Unfortunately Peterborough is not famed for it's hills for suitable test reverses - unless anyone knows of a steep hill in the area?There's a couple of steep hills on the A605 from Thrapston to Peterborough. Yes Peter there are, but the A605 is a very busy A1 to A14/M6 short cut route with a lot of fast moving trucks and cars and not the sort of place to mess about reversing uphill if you don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Peter, difficult to see that idea, as good as it is, getting off the ground. Not everyone has had the problem, or so the impression is, the dealers seem to be sticking to the story that "they know nothing" and the manufacturers are still buying the chassis engine combination in their thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 How hard have you pushed the TV/newspapers to run this story? 80 buyers (close to 100 in newspaperspeak) have bought expensive leisure veicles, that share a comon problem that casts some doubt on their roadworthiness. Many have been bought by recent retirees as their main means of travel and accommodation during their early retirement years. Unreliability of the vehicles is now a major restraint on their intended use, and neither the supplying dealerships, the manufacturers of the conversions nor the manufacturers of the base vehicles, will take responsibility for the fault, all merely playing "pass the parcel". I think this needs national coverage and that may come from a programme like Watchdog, or a major national paper that will not be influenced by loss of advertising revenue. Few motorhome manufacturers advertise in the nationals, and Fiat does not figure large in the "broadsheets". Anyone got any motoring journalist friends/contacts who may themseves have useful contacts?In simple terms, Fiat builds and sells the chassis to converters knowing they will be converted. They have to give the converters a lot of "priveleged" information on the base vehicle and its electronics to facilitate the conversion. To that extent, at least, they "bless" the conversion. Their recently reported pronouncements about excessive weight as a contributory factor are, in this context, fatuous. If the vehicle is plated at 3.5 tonnes max, it should perform satisfactorily in all respects up to that weight.Further thought. As current legislation does not appear effective in forcing one of the parties involved to take ownership of the problem, have you considered your MPs, or even seeking out an interested MP who might take up the matter on your joint behalves? It is exactly these kinds of intractible situations that MP are supposed to be for. I doubt there is/can be an overnight remedy, but the increased pressure from someone in authority should at least shake Fiat's tree a bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Lib Dem MP Lembit Opik has used a motorhome to tour his constituency and is/was also the 'parlimentary adviser' (whatever that is) to the Caravan Club. Not that we can expect any support from the Caravan Club methinks? Maybe 80 letters (or emails if you can find his email address) to Mr Opik might get noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 Re the two clubs we have been active with both of them and both are harassing Fiat and Peugeot for a statement. But so far they have had about as much success as anyone else at eliciting any information whatsoever. I have contacted or spoken to all the magazines which have involvement in motorcaravanning and the results have been generally good. Most now realise that this is a matter which needs wider public awareness. The only one which I haven't had any success with yet is Which Motorcaravan, so if there any of you out there who are regular readers perhaps you could try to influence the editor. We (Mike Jago and I with no external pressure before you all start hollering) are holding back on the MMM feature for a month to let Fiat and Peugeot consider their options, as this will reach a huge number of motorcaravanners, and leave them in no doubt about the issues involved and the consequences for the motorcaravan industry if there is no solution put in place. And if you have one of these Fiat or Peugeots and haven't yet tried reversing it up a steep hill then do so soon. If you aren't happy with the juddering or Fiat's lack of suitable explanation for it email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 How about Old jezza and the boys good old BBC . I gets to thinking that they would have some fun recking and burning the clutches out just for the fun of it . I think someone like Brian who can write good English with a little begging letter on their web page you can e mail them should do the trick . They like sodding about in vans and caravans and that ... That would really put the cat amongst the pidgeons Oh Cock . :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Getting a bit near the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 It's been a quiet day in Judderland with just four more dissatisfied owners making themselves apparent. Two are Swift Boleros with Fiat (Iveco) 2.3 litre engines and 6 speed boxes, of which one has already needed a new clutch. One is an Autocruise Starspirit (is this a Marquis Special?) with 2.2 litre Peugeot (Ford derived) engine and 6 speed box, whilst the remaining unlucky owner has a Murvi Morello with Fiat (Iveco) 3 litre engine and 6 speed box. The total is fast approaching 100, and we will be heard. It may take a while, and we may have to cause mayhem in the British Motorhome industry to get Fiat and Peugeot to listen, but this will not go away. Two owners have decided to reject their vehicles, and we all wish them luck. I've had two eamails today from very disappointed motorhomers who have cancelled their orders for new Fiat based motorhomes, and will be keeping hold of their old ones until something is resolved. It seems like the knowledge of this defect is getting around. Tell everyone you know, and maybe it will help us get our juddering vans fixed, or at least ensure Fiat and Peugoet make some sort of commitment to fix them when they have the means to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Andys post states time posted 5.54 but on the front page it is 7.53 Whats going on here To say that once I posted this it changed gremlins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Do these vehicles have dual mass flywheels (whatever they may be)? I seem to think that some remark earlier said that they had. I see a remark by Honest John in last Saturday's Telegraph that the new Mondeo has this and failures are at epidemic levels. I don't know anything else about this. Just a thought to throw in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 There has been a worrying development in the Juddering matter this last couple of days. Briefly David Minchin's Burstner Marano on Fiat 2.3 litre 6 speed chassis wrecked the clutch a few days ago whilst reversing (and juddering) up a hill. The clutch has been replaced by Fiat, at a cost of £1000, and they expected David to pay for it, as they claimed that there were no manufacturing defects, and that it was worn out because of the manner of use. The vehicle is less than 12 months old, and has done 5400 miles. David (obviously ) remonstrated but Fiat were initially still insisting that a clutch worn out by misuse is not a warranty issue. Anyway after the motorhome dealer and Burstner got involved Fiat decided they would stand the cost of the clutch as a goodwill gesture. The point is that if you haven't previously complained about the judder in the transmission it seems that Fiat are going to be unwilling to pick up teh cost clutch replacements even this early. What chance when they are two years old? Even though they may be hardly used. Go and reverse your X250 fiat or Peugeot up a steep hill and see what you think of the transmission judder. If you aren't happy with it make na official complaint to Fiat or Peugeot. And don't be fobbed off - this is a potentially veyr expensive defect. If you're thinking of buying a new motorcaravan just ask yourself if you want these worries every time you visit hilly areas. Like Cornwall and Devon even, besides the more obvious places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I received the recall letter to-day for my Peugeot and rang my local dealer to get booked in for the mods, they will need the vehicle for 3 days as they are doing a full transmission stripdown / steering sortout and of course the full monty on the water ingress , I did have the water problem sorted when I 1st got the vehicle but this time they want to do the complete fix whens it booked in for ? the 21st May the day we return from our 1st trip to France this year, so its fingers crossed that nothing fails before then .http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/images/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 When you say a full transmission strip down what is this in response to? Is it the differential bolt tightening recall or something else? For those unaware of the recall on certain chassis for a check of the bolts on the differential housing this is nothing to do with the juddering, and I think only affects a number of 5 speed 100 models. God I need a holiday - I'm becoming an anorak and expert in something I haven't normally the faintest interest in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I Was only going by what the guy from the service dept said he said it would be a lond job because of stripping the gearbox and diffs because of the juddering in reverse mine is the 2.2 5 speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi My Peugeot 100Hdi is also booked in for a recall for the steering rack and water ingress"safety check". Bearing in mind the above post I have just spoken to the service dept. at my local Peugeot dealer in Warrington and they have told me that the transmission recall only affects certain vans, and mine isn't one of them. This may explain why my van hasn't had a reverse juddering problem but others have. And could this be the answer to the FIAT problem. It does only affect certain transmission systems on certain vans even though they are the same make and model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I contacted Andy as requested after testing mine on a steep hill on the IOM near to home just in case it fell to bits, however it did not the judder in reverse was no worse than my previous camper (fiat based ) or my Peugot van Tomos point is interesting as his peugot does not appear to have the problem either. May be they are fitting different gearboxes on some models as in one of the reports in MMM the writer stated that the peugot based camper with the 2.2 100 hp engine did 2500rpm at 70mph where as mine does 3100rpm at 70 mph so I obviously have a lower final drive gear ratio, which obviously improves the reversing caracteristics. May be tomos is the same gearbox as mine. Of course there is no way of knowing this until you have puchased and driven the vehicle.I have had the current recalls carried out, but have cured the water ingress problem myself. Andy is doing a great job on this reversing problem and with all the effort he is putting in it is a real credit to him, I really do hope he gets the results he deserves. My hobby horse is the water ingress problem I have never seen such appalling design and Fiats answer does not cure the problem it only covers it up. Good luck to you all with this Regards geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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