AndyStothert Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 Geoff & co with Peugeots Yep, the 5 speed models are definitely less inclined to judder, and indeed all the vans sustaining damage to the gearbox and clutch so far are the 6 speed models. But there are some unhappy owners of 5 speed models and our man Bromley picked an empty 5 speed short wheel base van out of a hire yard and tested it on a 1 in 5 hill. The result - it juddered like crazy. Alarmingly actually. There is a limited recall by Peugeot (on 5 speed models) for the checking of the differential casing for loose bolts as a result of badly machined casings, but this particular recall unforunately is nothing to do with the 6 speed models or the juddering. A pity that, as we're disappearing to the Pyrennees at the end of this month and I suspect there are some hills there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi All, I've posted details of this to Andy but here are details of my experience for the wider audience. Collected new AT Cheyenne 630LB from Discover at Burtree in early March. No hills there to speak of so could not test thoroughly but voiced my concerns re reversing problem. "Never heard of that" was the reply, so I gave them the Forum web address! Modest shudder reversing up my drive (about 1 in 12 with 180 degree sweep). Took it out to a local hill (1 in 3 to 1 in 5). Some shudder but controllable (or should that be containable). In use it developed an interesting random fault, ie fuel light flashes, gauge drops to zero and engine cuts out, will only restart if ignition switched off & then back on again (good fun at 60mph on the motorway). Took it to local Fiat agency (County Motors Carlisle) it appears there were four Fiat Campaign fixes due on this vehicle. One was the wet engine job, but one of the others was Campaign 5247; fuel injector flash, which I was told involved reprogramming the injectors. The outcome was that it hasn't repeated its little trick so far, but also the engine is much smoother and the reverse shudder much less, although I'm still concerned for the longer term. When I voiced this to the service reception guy and mentioned the forum activity he smiled & replied "You'll probably know what the Fiat response is then" Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-04-10 7:44 PM God I need a holiday - I'm becoming an anorak and expert in something I haven't normally the faintest interest in. Andy ... congratulations, you now qualify to write for the 'interchange' section of MMM!!!!! :-D ;-) By the way, how's Marion? I just read that she was poorly on one of your trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 12, 2008 Author Share Posted April 12, 2008 My good lady is fine thankyou very much. Still needlessly burning a fiver a day, but otherwise fine. But to business: There have been quite a few enquiries about the gearbox failures on these vans and I can confirm that two others were exactly the same as ours in that the drivers noticed the damage immediately after reversing up a steep hill. The damage consists of the synchromesh cone on the upward change into second gear being wrecked, and at first this seemed a baffling consequence of the juddering in reverse. However Fiat themselves came up with the explanation (not knowing why I was asking about the internal layout of the box) in that they say reverse gear lies between 1st and 2nd, so all that juddering and vibration has resulted in reverse gear coming into contact with the nearest bit of metal - which happens to be the synchro cone on the upward change side of 2nd gear. Consensus amongst those that know (or have a clue) at Fiat is that the juddering is causing the coming together of these parts , rather than an inherent problem with the box. After ours had the new gearbox fitted it was still juddering just as badly, so I pointed out to Fiat that the root cause of the gearbox failure was still there so what would happen if it damaged another one. They said they would replace it if this happened, and would keep doing so, but were less sure about if this would be the case if it occurred out of warranty. The clutch is an even bigger worry as the warranty doesn't seeem to actually cover the clutch (unless you can prove there is a specific manufacturing fault) and this is the item taking most of the stress when the juddering occurs. In the end though, who cares what is causing the damage - Fiat and Peugeot just need to sort it out. Go find a hill and reverse your X250 Fiat or Peugeot up it. Try not to break it though. If it judders, make an official complaint - this may save you the cost of clutch if it subsequently fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 13, 2008 Author Share Posted April 13, 2008 Thanks to the Motor Caravanners Club I now have a copy of the latest revised Peugeot warranty conditions for the Boxer and it shows the following new exclusion: 'Exclusion of vibration and noise related to the normal operation of the vehicle: the operation of a vehicle even when new generates noise and vibration related to the current state of automobile technology and to the design choices made by the manufacturer'. That last part, in effect, means anything Peugoet wish it to mean. It goes on - 'There are no specific lists of so called normal vibrations or noises for each vehicle and it is the Authorised repairer who - using their experience and the manufacturers instructions if appropriate will assess whether or not they are normal. In the event of doubt concerning a diagnosis a comparitive test on a vehicle of identical specifications must be used to help in explaining the decsion to the customer'. So there we have it - if they are all vibrating then it isn't a design cock-up but a 'design choice' by the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-04-13 9:26 AM So there we have it - if they are all vibrating then it isn't a design cock-up but a 'design choice' by the manufacturer. i as it on good authority that our local high street anibal somners is doin very well thankyou, an don neef any divine intervention from andys or forum members my biddys. farreachinfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-04-13 9:26 AM So there we have it - if they are all vibrating then it isn't a design cock-up but a 'design choice' by the manufacturer. i as it on good authority that our local high street anibal somners is doin very well thankyou, an don neef any divine intervention from andys or forum members my biddys. farreachinfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 Well we now know from that garrentee exclusion, Fiat etc. have not managed to cure the design fault, so now all the motorhome manufacturers must know this, will they keep converting a unsuitable vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-04-13 9:26 AM Thanks to the Motor Caravanners Club I now have a copy of the latest revised Peugeot warranty conditions for the Boxer and it shows the following new exclusion: 'Exclusion of vibration and noise related to the normal operation of the vehicle: the operation of a vehicle even when new generates noise and vibration related to the current state of automobile technology and to the design choices made by the manufacturer'. That last part, in effect, means anything Peugoet wish it to mean. It goes on - 'There are no specific lists of so called normal vibrations or noises for each vehicle and it is the Authorised repairer who - using their experience and the manufacturers instructions if appropriate will assess whether or not they are normal. In the event of doubt concerning a diagnosis a comparitive test on a vehicle of identical specifications must be used to help in explaining the decsion to the customer'. So there we have it - if they are all vibrating then it isn't a design cock-up but a 'design choice' by the manufacturer. So, the question now is, has clutch judder now been re-classified as a vibration? Since clutch judder has long been a recognised description for the condition we all know and dread, I think it at least arguable that a vibration is not the same as a judder. I would argue that a judder is a specific type of transmission fault characterised by low frequency shaking of the whole drivetrain, whereas a vibration would be a mainly a noise, possibly sensible as well as audible, at a much higher frequency than is characteristic of a judder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 13, 2008 Author Share Posted April 13, 2008 Yes, Brian, I think Fred's answer makes more sense to my degenerate mind, but I 'm sure you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niton Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I have taken delivery of a new Pilote P690FG (LHD) with the 3.0 litre engine about a month ago. To date I have not experienced any problems although I have been unable or needed to reverse up a steep hill. Around Warwickshire there are not any. When we collected our new 'van the Sales Director of the main importer in Darlaston was showing me under the bonnet. I noticed the water was coming in and dripping onto the fuse box. He told me not to worry about it as it had a cover. When pushed I was told to take it up with the Fiat Dealer under the Warranty. If I wish to complain to Fiat can you let me have the best contact details to use. Thanks, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 That gives you some idea of the directors attitude to customer care! What an idiot. Your contract for the vehicle is with them, tell him you want them to sort it not FIAT. Or go into the showrooms and discuss the attitude problem with other potential customers, preferably while he is there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Hi Niton, I am not surprised at the dealers atitude I visited the dealer recently where I purchased my camper, As I had a warrenty issue regarding the rear bumper ( still not received a new one yet). I had a discussion with one of the saleman and pointed out that nearly all the Fiat and Peugot based campers in the showroom did not have the scuttle sealed to the windscreen and some of them had the blanking grommets missing from each end of the scuttle as did mine when I picked it up Feb 2007. The attitude was that Fiat did not PDi the chassis before they are delivered to the converter, the converter did not think it was there problem and the dealer did not think it was there job to do this either, so the upshot of this is that the Fiat part of your camper has probably not been checked over and the dealer leaves it to the Fiat agent to sort out when you complain. I have posted on the forum about my solution to the Fiat engine irrigation system my engine bay is now DRY I am happy to send details to any one that wants to know how to solve the problem. As I have stated before the Fiat fix is just a bodge and does not cure the problem, water and electrics do not mix and water dripping on fuse boxes, injectors and other electrical components is just not acceptable.I can see great problems with under bonnet corrosion if this is not addressed. If you want to contact Fiat go onto the Fiat website and click contact us you can then get them to phone you back straight away I have used this and it works wellG good luck Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Before starting on the juddering issue I finally got round to looking under the bonnet for water (I've been confused and distracted by thoughts of broken gearboxes and the like) and what do I find? Bearing in mind that it has been in for the scuttle etc recall. Yes, water everywhere, but definitely no engine cover and certainly not a modified scuttle. Fiat have had yet another phone call from me, and though l now wish I'd never bought the thing, until the juddering is sorted out I'm stuck with it. I just can't bring myself to sell something which I know to be duff. Today's Juddering Moment concerns a 2. 3 litre 6 speed coachbuilt vehicle by one of the largest motorhome manufacturers, sold through one of the largest dealers which had the dreaded judders and the owners felt it was 'unfit for purpose' and thus rejected it. After discussions with the dealer and manufacturer the customers accepted a new vehicle (which they have yet to use in anger). But what happened to the rejected vehicle you may ask? Well the ex-ownesr say it went straight back on sale in the dealers (without any remedial work as there isn't any available) and it has ben sold-on. I'm not sure if I should broadcast the registration number or not? On reflection perhaps not, but has anyone any idea how to track down the present owner without doing so? To be frank this is getting too big, too complex and far too sleazy for one very confused and disorganised eejit such as I to keep track of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Before starting on the juddering issue I finally got round to looking under the bonnet for water (I've been confused and distracted by thoughts of broken gearboxes and the like) and what do I find? Bearing in mind that it has been in for the scuttle etc recall. Yes, water everywhere, but definitely no engine cover and certainly not a modified scuttle. Fiat have had yet another phone call from me, and though l now wish I'd never bought the thing, until the juddering is sorted out I'm stuck with it. I just can't bring myself to sell something which I know to be duff. Today's Juddering Moment concerns a 2. 3 litre 6 speed coachbuilt vehicle by one of the largest motorhome manufacturers, sold through one of the largest dealers which had the dreaded judders and the owners felt it was 'unfit for purpose' and thus rejected it. After discussions with the dealer and manufacturer the customers accepted a new vehicle (which they have yet to use in anger). But what happened to the rejected vehicle you may ask? Well the ex-ownesr say it went straight back on sale in the dealers (without any remedial work as there isn't any available) and it has been sold-on. I'm not sure if I should broadcast the registration number or not? On reflection perhaps not, but has anyone any idea how to track down the present owner without doing so? To be frank this is getting too big, too complex and far too sleazy for one very confused and disorganised eejit such as I to keep track of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Before starting on the juddering issue I finally got round to looking under the bonnet for water (I've been confused and distracted by thoughts of broken gearboxes and the like) and what do I find? Bearing in mind that it has been in for the scuttle etc recall. Yes, water everywhere, but definitely no engine cover and certainly not a modified scuttle. Fiat have had yet another phone call from me, and though l now wish I'd never bought the thing, until the juddering is sorted out I'm stuck with it. I just can't bring myself to sell something which I know to be duff. Today's Juddering Moment concerns a 2. 3 litre 6 speed coachbuilt vehicle by one of the largest motorhome manufacturers, sold through one of the largest dealers which had the dreaded judders and the owners felt it was 'unfit for purpose' and thus rejected it. After discussions with the dealer and manufacturer the customers accepted a new vehicle (which they have yet to use in anger). But what happened to the rejected vehicle you may ask? Well the ex-ownesr say it went straight back on sale in the dealers (without any remedial work as there isn't any available) and it has been sold-on. I'm not sure if I should broadcast the registration number or not? On reflection perhaps not, but has anyone any idea how to track down the present owner without doing so? To be frank this is getting too big, too complex and far too sleazy for one very confused and disorganised eejit such as I to keep track of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Even my computer is confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exustrek Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 After discussions with the dealer and manufacturer the customers accepted a new vehicle (which they have yet to use in anger). But what happened to the rejected vehicle you may ask? Well the ex-ownesr say it went straight back on sale in the dealers (without any remedial work as there isn't any available) and it has been sold-on................. Absolutely disgusting, these people should be ashamed, they seem to operate in a parallel universe where morals & a sense of fair play are sneered at. I'm amazed that the motorhome world treats what should be it's biggest assett (their customers) with such contempt. It takes a special kind of person to be able to prey on it's unsuspecting customers in this manner. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 ah, but as us all knows my biddys, theres nothing wrong with the rejected vehicle, so whats wrong with reselling it, buyafordfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 I heard a rumour a couple of weeks ago from our fellow judderers in Italy that Fiat are presently working on a re-design of the gearbox and clutch on the Ducato and Boxer. The Italians say that this will be ready to go into the production line vehicles in late January 2009. What they can't find out, and this is vital, is whether the modified clutch and box will fit existing vehicles. This rumour has been offered up to Fiat UK by one of the clubs (who have both been chasing Fiat for answers) and the man at Fiat refused to confirm or deny that the rumour has any authenticity. This means in effect that we need to keep at them until at least then, but not only for us mugs who already have them, but to try and prevent Fiat and Peugeot contaminating the market with any more of these problematic and potentially financially disastrous vehicles (for the owners). If you feel that you can organise a series of leaflet drops (just sticking them behind windscreen wipers) around the summer shows drop me an email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvynT Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm new at the motohome gate, but at some point, I will trade up from my elderly, (aged) Transit in the future. At this point in time it will not be to a Fiat/Peugot of any description. If others are put off by this catalogue of failures on a chassis specifically designed for motorhoming, well Fiat know where to look when the order book is empty. Maybe we need a failure survey, like the Top gear/JD power survey. (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 What's happened to the 1:20pm posting? Index page shows one, but it's not here. Someone being libellous again?? Just popping in and looking at this thread now and again, it sounds to me as if you guys are going to have to get legal soon. Just a thought, I wonder if this would work? Supposing a few of you who've bought fiats from the same dealer, preferably a big firm with loads of muscle, send the dealer a solicitor's letter holding them responsible for the whole mess and threatening court action against them, and pointing out that this will set a precedent for other claims. Then follow up with a less formal contact, offering to drop the case if THEY will take legal action against Fiat - which again would set a precedent. In our precedent-based legal system, it only takes one ... Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Oh ... my post didn't appear either! Clearly there's a "time-delay" intercept in operation on this thread since it's so controversial - in the same way that many "live" TV shows are actually delayed, so things can be "bleeped" if needed! No criticism here - if I was the Mod I'd do the same, given the legal risks! Tony EDIT: Now it's all appeared! The censor must be back from lunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas IOM Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Hi Andy, Fiat have reportedly already solved the juddering/reverse problem, with the newly available 2.3 or 3.0 Ltr Ducato's, sporting the Comfort/Matic Automatic gearbox. These versions are said not to judder in reverse when tested up an hill by Which Motorcaravan ?. Get the spanners out Andy and see what the mechanical differences are between the automatic and the non automatic versions of Ducato are. Gear ratio's, clutch plate size, etc. Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm not about to believe anything I read in which Motorcaravan Magazine thankyou (even if my name is on it), but my mate Hurrell from MMM says he thinks (but isn't absolutely sure) that the auto box is OK. Unfortunately it is only available on the 3litre model, so the swine won't go in mine. I had a very, very novel, and really quite amusing Fiat fob-off to one of the juddering owners prepared for tonight's 'blog' (see us oldies can be trendy) but it'll keep until tomorrow. If you haven't reversed your new model Ducato or Boxer up a steep hill (or an slight incline on a soft grassy field now I come to think of it) go and give it a try. If you aren't happy with the juddering complain to Fiat and anyone else you can think of - dealer, manufacturer, mates, wife, or mates's wife even. If it's soon then email me. But if not I will be posting the email address of the new Juddergate Chief Whinger shortly, as I've been sacked with a fortnight's notice from today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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