Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Rayjsj]

AndyStothert - 2008-04-15 9:46 PM

 

 

If it's soon then email me. But if not I will be posting the email address of the new Juddergate Chief Whinger shortly, as I've been sacked with a fortnight's notice from today.

 

 

 

 

Your'e not serious,are you Andy ?? Do you mean sacked by Warners/MMM ?

if there are no more ' So many roads' because of this debacle,then my subscription will not be renewed. I want a magazine that shows integrity.

NOT A Mouthpiece for Manufacturers.

Good Luck !

[Exustrek]

I think he means he's going on holiday or working away or something like that.

 

Bryan

[fred grant]

rumor as it my biddies it be a one way ticket!

 

ferrymanfred

 

[Bazza454]

AndyStothert - 2008-04-15 9:46 PM But if not I will be posting the email address of the new Juddergate Chief Whinger shortly, as I've been sacked with a fortnight's notice from today.

This is either a bloody great Lancashire wind-up or April 1st (and it ain't April 1st anymore).

Andy, if you've been sacked, then there is no hope anymore for "integrity" or "MMM".

If you are not allowed to state your own experiences and personal views, then there is no point in continuing working for a Company that doesn't appreciate free speech, and are more concerned about upsetting the Multi-Nationals. 

[Exustrek]

I think he means he's going on holiday or working away or something like that.

 

Bryan

[Tony Jones]

(half-finished version of next post - pressed SUBMIT too soon!)

[Tony Jones]

I assumed Andy was claiming (hoping???) to be "sacked" from his role in co-ordinating the Fiat complaints on here, as a private individual - nothing more than that.

Never occurred to me that MMM might not want him around.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CLARIFY?

If he HAS been fired by Warners because of this, I suspect it will cost them a lot of subscriptions. John Hunt, thou shouldst be living at this hour!

[AndyStothert]

No no, MMM haven't sacked me.

We're going off to Europe. I'm trying to sell the 'So Many European Roads' idea to them?

[Tony Jones]

Thank goodness for that!

Go for it Andy, I for one would love to see the series extended over the water! I hope management are up for it.

[bob b]

Two friends of mine run the new Fiat vans for business deliveries. I asked them if they have experienced any of the juddering problems whilst reversing. They both said not.

 

Of course, their deliveries are mostly in the London and the home counties area, and the vans are not normally carrying their full capacity. They both were not particularly interested in finding a steep hill and testing for the fault.

 

Their (not unreasonable) attitude is probably the attitude of most commercial owners of the vehicle and goes some way to explain the absence of comments from this section of users.

 

 

[madmick]

Calm down, calm down. if we'd sacked Andy where would he go for his free pitch and bottle of wine in Devon. Eh?

 

AND who else would build a smoking shelter just for Attilla. That would be a waste.

 

madmick & northend

[AndyStothert]

Perhaps I should explain about MMM. This is not employment, or like 'working' for a 'normal' magazine. It's all us motorhoming anoraks doing it, rather than journalists. We aren't perfect, perhaps aren't as slick, sometimes get it wrong, but we all have motorhomes and use them. The Editors are friends as opposed to the enemy - which is what most editors are. (except TGO of course - the other truly anorak mag which pays my bills). MMM does, of course, have an almost professional journalist working for them, in the genetically defective form of the Deputy Editor, but she spent all her childhood being bounced around the extremities of Britain in the back of a motorhome, so her take on life is slightly motorhomised.

So if you don't buy MMM why not?

As for the smoking shelter well, these two West country bumpkins have the fire brigade permanently on stand-by for their utility room activities.

 

Anyway enough grovelling in an attempt to get a pay rise (did I mention the pay is rubbish too, and we're all doing it for love?) for the focus here is on Fiat and Peugeot.

 

Yesterday I got an email from John Appleford who owns a Swift Sundance on a Fiat 130 powered (6 speed) chassis. Like nearly 100 other owners he isn't impressed with the juddering (and mechanically flawed) progress going backwards. He writes that he took it into Simonstones in Bristol an asked them to try it and see what they thought.

'Yeah, not just you', one of them says 'Its pickups and vans and everything'.

John pointed out that the juddering had a potential to damage gearboxes and clutches, and quick as a flash, the technician says 'Yeah, but yours isn't amongst the serial numbers affected. It's just the geometry of the engine mountings'.

John had problems keeping his face straight. We still await being supplied with the list of those 'serial numbers' which are affected, but suspect it won't be forthcoming.

Is there a serious point to relating this amusingly ridiculous Fiat Fiat fob-off? Well I think so, because it is obvious that Fiat aren't teating customers like thinking beings. Do they think we are all idiots.

Answers on postcard to Fiat, and clue to the correct solution is that it is a three letter word beginning with Y. No more clues will be given, but seeing as you are all idiots, it ends in S and had an E somewhere in it.

Tell all your motorhoming friends about this defect, especially if they are thinking of looking for a new motorhome soon.

 

[Basil]

Hi, just to relate a tale to anyone who believes that the resale of these vehicles won't be affected.

My neighbour, who incidently is a practicing motor engineer (I don't mean learning I mean earns his living (lol) ) was considering a 2007 Swift and not having had a motorhome before asked me to view it with him to see what I thought of the habitation side, a very nice looking van. I purposely had not mentioned anything about the reverse judder to him (as I had not had any experience myself) though had mentioned the water in the engine bay, however I suggested that when he tested it he found a hill to reverse up as I had heard there may be a possible problem with some in reverse and to see what he thought (objective as he was in the trade so to speak). When he returned from his test drive he was very grim faced as was the person who was trying to sell. His point of view was he spends enough time repairing other peoples vehicles and he isn't about to start working on his own at £30000!

Next day he asked me to view an 04 plate McLouis Tandy 620 Plus, on a 2.8 JTD Mk2 Ducato chassis that performed perfectly in reverse, forward and every other way. He has now bought it and is sitting proudly on his drive.

My point is once people know what to try these vehicles will not sell, sorry current owners you need to ensure that yours does not do it driving 'normally' as most normal drivers do without resorting to driving it in a special way to hide the fault because if you do it may come back to haunt you.

 

Bas

[Goldcoaster]

I belive that the current 3 litre Ducatos are running a modified version of the 3 litre Iveco engine which has been in use for some time.

In the rear wheel drive Ivecos the engine is fitted north/south, whereas in the Ducato/Boxers is east/west.

I have not heard of any Juddering problems with Ivecos (which are far more common here in Australia than Fiats) and wonder if they use an identical clutch/flywheel set up?

If they do, then the problem with Fiats lies elsewhere and not in the clutch itself.

The difference could be in the geometry of the front wheel drive and the resultant quite different engine mountings.

Also,there is no water ingress problem with the Ivecos as they are fitted with a proper bonnet

Regards,Bill

[snailblazer]

As an outside observer I would think it unlikely to be a clutch problem, after all the clutch works the same in both directions.

In days of yore when one had to make do and mend on cars well past their prime, juddering was often blamed on the clutch when in fact the cause was tired engine mounts. In this case the engine mounts are not tired.

In forward gears the reaction torque on the engine/transmission block causes the engine to tilt backwards and vice versa when in reverse. This gives two distinct situations for the engine mountings/dampers to contend with. The design could be adequate to cope with forward direction torque (which is most of the time) but less so for reverse. Depending on gear ratios, the torque in reverse could be greater.

What is amazing is that the manufacturers/converters/dealers are continuing to sell a product that is known to be defective.

[Rayjsj]

snailblazer - 2008-04-17 11:19 AM

 

What is amazing is that the manufacturers/converters/dealers are continuing to sell a product that is known to be defective.

 

 

 

 

I could'nt agree more,and what's worse is that there are unsuspecting souls still buying them ! :'(

[Mike P]

You may have a point Snailblazer; my AT Cheyenne 630 on the 130 Fiat has only a modest judder (but still not acceptable for a new state of the art vehicle). I had to take it through heavy rush-hour traffic jams in Carlisle the other day; in stop start traffic it behaved just like the 1959-61 Minis (there must be a few out there who remember them!), these were before BMC cottoned on to putting a stabiliser bar between the engine block and the bulkhead, and you had to chase he gear lever from anywhere from the dashboard to between the front seats the engine rock was so severe. I'm not saying my gear lever bounced about but the recoil bounce between drive & overrun was horrendous. I wonder if Fiat might apply the same solution as did BMC.

Mike P

 

[Mel B]

Copied from the 'Juddering' posting to save yet another one running.

 

This was posted by Colin Weston:

 

I bought my Peugeot based Autocruise Starburst, 2.2 litre 120 hp 6 speed, last June. GVW 3500 kg with Alco chassis. Overall I have been very pleased with it and the new Peugeot Boxer has some significant improvements over the previous Boxer model. It was almost by accident that I found out about the underbonnet water ingress problem and it was primarily by visiting this forum that I found out that I am too suffering the juddering problem.

I even experience a slight judder when I reverse into my drive which is only some 5 inches higher than the roadway. However, today I went to a 1 in 5 hill and reversed using my 50 years experience of driving many types of vehicles. In order to develop sufficient torque to hold the vehicle on the hill and allow release of the handbrake I needed some 1500 rpm. The vehicle reversed but only with a bad judder. I stopped after a few yards. I tried again with lower revs which only resulted in an engine stall. A further reverse using 1500 rpm gave a similar result to the first. As a retired mechanical engineer I would would like to venture the opinion that the clutch is not at fault. If the clutch was not up to the job would this not also show up when driving up a steep hill in first gear. I am inclined to think that the problem is more likely to be the engine mounting system. I will try and get some views from my retired automotive engineering colleagues and report back.

Like Andy Stothert, I also like visiting mountainous areas and the need to reverse on a mountain pass is always a possibility and no one wants to encounter any sort of failure in this type of location.

 

 

And this was from Colin:

 

Are you familier with dual mass flywheels? this is I feel a contributing factor, as a judder is experianced on other vehicles with this when the clutch/flywheel starts to fail

 

 

[Tomo3090]

As someone who is getting a new van next month on a FIAT chassis, I find myself in a quandry. Finding the "perfect layout" is all about compromise and we did the pros and cons table and came up with the Autotrail Cheyenne 660. The van is only available on 2 chassis FIAT and Mercedes. TheMerc is 5.5 grand dearer and seems to have some problems of it's own, (if other web sites and forums are to be believed). So because the only affordable option is the FIAT and that's the only option offered by Autotrail and unless we put off changing the van for another 12 months or more, (and even then who says FIAT will have found a "cure"). Then we have no alternative but to go down that route.

 

I tell myself I drove round France & Spain for 12 weeks last year and never had to reverse up a 1-5 incline or anything like it in my 2007 Peugeot, so why should I have to do it in my new van? If I find myself in a position like that then I will see if there is an alternative solution, i.e turning round or asking the other person to reverse down the hill to a passing point.

 

Am I deluding myself? Possibly.

 

Can I afford to cancel my order, forfeit my deposit and put off our "life plan/dreams until a date to be decided? In reality, no.

 

So in the real world we will get our new van, drive off into the sunset and hope that someone else has bought the duff one! I imagine this is the thought pattern of thousands of FIAT chassis van owners around Europe, if Andys' investigations are correct. And I'm NOT saying they aren't!

 

So I would just like to say good luck Andy and I hope you succeed in your battle. FIAT are... (well I can't say it on a public forum, but it rhymes with hunts) for ruining peoples dreams and lives, costing them hard earned cash and being dishonest and dishonourable.

 

And to the people who areluckey enough to have a van that is OK then because of the way the industry is structured then if this isn't successfully fought then you will have problems in a few years down the line. That's obvious even to an optimist like me

 

 

[colin]

Tomo, like yourself the best version of layout for us is on Fiat, in our case the Adria Twin, but as I would regulary be towing approx 1.5t with it giving a train weight of close to 5t I have a choise to either delay purchase or get second best, as Fiat have publicaly stated that van will judder with this load.

[AndyStothert]

Greetings,

I've had an email today from a chap who is buying an Autocruise van conversion from a dealer here up north, and he asked the dealer about the juddering, who honest as the day is long admitted that he had indeed experienced the juddering on several vehicles they had sold, but told him not to worrry, as they reckon it only affects coachbuilt vans.

A limited amount of honesty can go a long way in the motor trade.

[AndyStothert]

There has been an interesting development today which may or may not lead to anything. Like so much before it could just be another evasion tactic.

One of the defective Peugeots (Auto Sleeper 2.2 litre 6 speed box) is to be taken to the Peugeot Technical Centre and stripped down by them as Peugeot have conceded that the juddering is unacceptable. If may be that they will treat this vehicle as a one-off, and replace it or refund the purchase price, and not admit any of the others are defective, but now could be the time to apply a little more pressure on Peugeot if you own one.

One of the more recent recruits to contact me owns both a Hymer A class (160 3 litre engine) for leisure use and a LWB Ducato van (2.3 litre 6 speed) for work. He has double the trouble as the rest of us, with both juddering like mad. The van even judders when completely empty whilst reversing, and this tends to rule out any kind of weight issue as being responsible.

Does anyone live near Northern Commercials at Brighouse?

If so and you're willing to undertake a little subterfuge, can you email me.

[Rayjsj]

Bump to the Top, in reverse. :D

[colin weston]

Mel B Thanks for transferring my posting. I didn't mean to start a new thread!

Colin No, I'm not familiar with dual-mass flywheels. One thing a severe judder will do is to increase the stress on various components. A suddenly applied load will result in double the stress of a steadily applied load. Having said that there is usually a reasonable 'factor of safety' to cater with mis-use and abuse.

[Ranger]

Isn't it due to the fact that it is front wheel drive with everything driving athwart-ships (Or east-west) which ever way you like to say it???