Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems

[Dave Newell]

For all those who have wondered if builders vans suffer this problem I can say the answer is most certainly yes! I spoke this morning with a chap who lives in our road (well a house on the side of our road to be exact :D ) and uses a Peugeot variant of the X250, its a medium wheelbase low roof van with the six speed box coupled to the 2.3 litre lump. I asked him if he experienced any problems with it " what, like the juddering when I try to reverse it" says he. Well yes, exactly that problem in fact says I, how bad is it? "Its bloody terrible, especially up hills and it gets a lot worse the more weight there is in the van, the boss is putting it into the garage next week for them to look at it, I'll let you know how it gets on".

 

D.

[Clive]

I made the same mistake!

 

I suspect that if the DMF flywheel were replaced by a solid one you would just swap one set of problems for another set of problems.

 

Its similar I guess to swapping the older Fiat lump with the dodgy / fussy outside the main box 5th gear arrangement for the current Fiat lump with a different problem that also results in bits of the gearbox falling apart.!

 

I believe the "cure" will encompas many items including clutch, gearbox ratio,s in reverse, gearbox sturdiness, engine suspension and pivot point and all things connected with the dynamics of the vehicle. How many of these will be able to be incorporated retrospectively into current problem vehicles remains to be seen, but I guess not many.

 

No doubt in the fullness of time Fiat will bring out a "new" vehicle with all THESE problems sorted, but no doubt with another new batch of problems hitherto unseen.

 

I am afraid its why personally I would never buy a Fiat based motorhome.

 

I have also looked carefully at how many of the sub assy mounting brackets, bonnet stays and small bits and bobs on a Fiat compare in a side by side comparison with the same bits on a VW or Merc. We did this together with others at one of the Warners shows where we had the vehicles lined up alongside each other with bonnets up. I am afraid that if you want minimum weight the Fiat wins hands down, but if you don,t want the bits to crack and fall off (as they do) then forget the Fiat.

 

In the end you get what you pay for.

 

C.

 

[Clive]

I suspect that if the DMF flywheel were replaced by a solid one you would just swap one set of problems for another set of problems.

 

Its similar I guess to swapping the older Fiat lump with the dodgy / fussy outside the main box 5th gear arrangement for the current Fiat lump with a different problem that also results in bits of the gearbox falling apart.!

 

I believe the "cure" will encompas many items including clutch, gearbox ratio,s in reverse, gearbox sturdiness, engine suspension and pivot point and all things connected with the dynamics of the vehicle. How many of these will be able to be incorporated retrospectively into current problem vehicles remains to be seen, but I guess not many.

 

No doubt in the fullness of time Fiat will bring out a "new" vehicle with all THESE problems sorted, but no doubt with another new batch of problems hitherto unseen.

 

I am afraid its why personally I would never buy a Fiat based motorhome.

 

I have also looked carefully at how many of the sub assy mounting brackets, bonnet stays and small bits and bobs on a Fiat compare in a side by side comparison with the same bits on a VW or Merc. We did this together with others at one of the Warners shows where we had the vehicles lined up alongside each other with bonnets up. I am afraid that if you want minimum weight the Fiat wins hands down, but if you don,t want the bits to crack and fall off (as they do) then forget the Fiat.

 

In the end you get what you pay for.

 

C.

 

[Clive]

I suspect that if the DMF flywheel were replaced by a solid one you would just swap one set of problems for another set of problems.

 

Its similar I guess to swapping the older Fiat lump with the dodgy / fussy outside the main box 5th gear arrangement for the current Fiat lump with a different problem that also results in bits of the gearbox falling apart.!

 

I believe the "cure" will encompas many items including clutch, gearbox ratio,s in reverse, gearbox sturdiness, engine suspension and pivot point and all things connected with the dynamics of the vehicle. How many of these will be able to be incorporated retrospectively into current problem vehicles remains to be seen, but I guess not many.

 

No doubt in the fullness of time Fiat will bring out a "new" vehicle with all THESE problems sorted, but no doubt with another new batch of problems hitherto unseen.

 

I am afraid its why personally I would never buy a Fiat based motorhome.

 

I have also looked carefully at how many of the sub assy mounting brackets, bonnet stays and small bits and bobs on a Fiat compare in a side by side comparison with the same bits on a VW or Merc. We did this together with others at one of the Warners shows where we had the vehicles lined up alongside each other with bonnets up. I am afraid that if you want minimum weight the Fiat wins hands down, but if you don,t want the bits to crack and fall off (as they do) then forget the Fiat.

 

In the end you get what you pay for.

 

C.

 

[Clive]

Dunno what happened there!

 

[libby]

Well Clive you're simply stressing that Fiat's 'aint so good!

 

LB

[AndyStothert]

I'd like to defend Fiat here, amongst all this barracking. After all I have one. For starters the 2.3 engine is peach of a thing.

 

What else is there?

The interior finish? Err, well no, the big drop-down glovebox dropped to bits within a fortnight, and all the plastic bits are proving to be completely non scratch resistant. The seats (£800 extra for the factory swivellers) had both been wrongly assembled, but I sorted that out myself whilst travelling.

The fittings? The sliding side door fails to unlock on the central locking every time, and despite two attempts to fix it this is still not right. The bolts on the back bumper rubbers are going rusty and the rubbers now have matching rust stains running down them. The fittings on the sliding door runner are going rusty, the sliding door itself has been fitted terribly, the metallic paint finish is rougher than Clive Mottgtbs brandy, and the lights are full of condensation.

The water feature under the bonnet has been anything but cured by a real botched job of a fix, the engine/gearbox thumps the floor when you start the engine, and the gear linkage is rattling on over-run in third gear. The gearchange from 4th to 5th is notchy and awkward too, though to be fair this, and the rattling, only started after the new gearbox was fitted.

Drat, I promised myself I wouldn't even think about the gearbox. Or that it broke one whilst juddering its way backwards up a hill.

Hell, now I've mentioned the 'J' word, and I've had such pleasant day on the canal, with no thoughts of travel threatened by broken clutches and gearboxes bothering me.

So there we are - don't knock them 'til you've tried one.

[AndyStothert]

I see nobody has come to witness box to defend Fiat. I still think it drives OK, but there we are, I'm stuck with it. I can't sell it because I'd be guilty of knowingly selling a defective vehicle, and I just couldn't do it. Unlike Fiat and Peugeot, who are still doing it. And the dealers.

 

Anyway, are any of you rallying with clubs at Peterbrough as I've heard a rumour that somebody is planning a huge leaflet drop there to further undermine the credibility of the Ducato and Boxer as a satisfactory base vehicle for such expensive and aspirational leisure vehicles.

The point is that if any of you want to distribute said leaflet amongst your group or club I'm sure I can put you in touch with the organiser. Obviously I can't have anything to do with it myself, but I can certainly point everyone in the right direction.

email me if you can help - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

 

[niton]

I took delivery of a new Pilote motorhome on a Fiat with a 160cv 3.0 litre engine. It is also left hand drive. To date we are very pleased with the purchase both the habitation side and Fiat, except water does drip onto the main fuse box when it rains!!

To date I have not been able or reverse it up a steep hill so as yet cannot comment on that aspect of the Fiat.

What I would like to know is the 'juddering' happening to Fiat's across all the engine sizes as I don't think anyone has reported the'juggering' on the 160cv 3.0 litre engine 'van.

I would be interested to hear from anyone with the 3.0 litre engine if they also experience 'juddering' while reversing up a steep hill.

Thanks,

Peter.

[Jana]

Hi Andy, just a quick thought about the leaflet drop.

 

Warners won't be happy, we were threatened with ejection from the York showground for it. When I questioned the security gentleman why, he started on his radio asking for assistance and to call the police too !

 

We were just putting A5 flyers for our club - not for profit - and were only putting them under a certain type of vehicle, only had about 50 to hand out and he stopped us after about 6 !

 

Love to have seen what the police would have done, should have called his bluff in retrospect.

[Dave Newell]

I think its actually illegal to put flyers on vehicles although handing them out to passers by is perfectly acceptable. Of course I could be mistaken on this but Warners will definitely not let you do it.

 

D.

[AndyStothert]

I personally have no intention of distributing leaflets at Peterborough. I thought I'd better make that clear.

On private property the police would have absolutely no power to do anything as long as you aren't trespassing.

As far as I can determine everybody who will be involved wil not be trespassing.

 

The owner of the 3 litre 160 model should be very afraid of the juddering as they are certainly amongst the worst afflicted. I can't put my hand on the relevant piece of paper (the desk is chaos) but I think out of the ninety odd 14 are 160 models. And from what I can gather from the owners they are quite severe judderers.

From talking to other owners it seems that our little campervan isn't the worst around, but it still managed to break the gearbox on a very steep hill , so I think the best advice now for owners is to avoid reversing up any steep hill if possible.

I'm now quite prepared to get out and explain to any oncoming driver what the problem is to prevent knackering the gearbox again. Daft I know, but necessary at the moment.

[Exustrek]

Our Dethleffs is the 3.0l 160 & it judders.

 

Bryan

[thamesist]

So Peugeot have acknowledged the problem. My dealer said today that they are looking for a fix (having tried to back ours up a 1in8). How this will affect warranty issues I've yet to establish

Keep at it!!

[thamesist]

So Peugeot have acknowledged the problem. My dealer said today that they are looking for a fix (having tried to back ours up a 1in8). How this will affect warranty issues I've yet to establish

Keep at it!!

 

Alan

[Jean Ray]

Hi Tomo,

 

I would just like to say that we have an Autotrail Cheyenne 660 SE. We bought it at the end of October after ordering it in May. Whilst it was on order, we too read all these write ups about the juddering etc. and we weren't sure whether we were doing the right thing either. But we decided that we wanted this vehicle because like yourselves, we had spent over 12 months looking for the right layout to suit our needs. When we looked at the Cheyenne 660 we had no doubt in our minds that that was the van for us. We are now into our 6th month, we have tried "the hill test" even with a motorcycle on the back and haven't got a judder!!!

 

Maybe we are lucky, but we have no regrets, we think the van is fantastic and we write this in the South of France finding no problems whatsoever on the way down.

 

All I can say is if I was in your shoes, I'd go for it!!! Best of luck and I hope you are as pleased with it as we are.

 

Jean & Ray

 

 

[Tomo3090]

Dear Jean & Ray, I love you!!

 

Received the May MMM yesterday and the only mention of the "judder was from Dave Hurrell who tested the comfortmatic gearbox and after specifically testing for it, reported no juddering in reverse up hill.

 

What did intrigue me was that they have done the report on their "long term" 6 month test of a Chausson Allegro 93 and despite going into detail about many itmes on the van, including the water ingress problem, no mention at all is made of any juddering at all. So either the vehicle, a Ducato 160 Multijet, didn't show any signs of it, (like Jean & Rays' Cheyenne), or someone decided it wasn't worth a line or two. Could anyone from Warners confirm which of these two it is please. I'll also e-mail them with this request and post it if they reply.

[Guest Tracker]

It is good to know that some vans don't judder.

 

I wonder if the chassis numbers of those that do and those that don't, if collated, might point Fiat to a faulty batch of one or more components?

 

Just a thought?

[Tomo3090]

I have received a reply from the author of the test and he has asked me not to print his reply, so I won't. But basically he did the test, drove 500 miles and didn't encounter any mechanical problems or hills so he couldn't reverse up one! He did reverse on a grassy slope and had no problem.

 

I don't have any reason to doubt what he has told me or his integrity so I don't see any signs of a conspiracy from the magazine, unless you count the "grassy knoll" he reversed up!

[AndyStothert]

We had the Chausson for a month - before we took delivery of our new van, and I can confirm at it did indeed judder whilst reversing uphill, as can the Deputy Editor of MMM. But we thought, at the time, that it was just a one-off, and thought no more about it really.

Then, after we'd got the new van, and had the new gearbox fitted (end of September) Fiat messed me about for so long saying all the right things (I shall know not to believe any bleeder from Customer Care in future) that by the time I'd got myself in a position to get this rolling the Chausson was long gone.

So it really wasn't something any of were looking for until after mid January, when I started shouting, then when I had numerical confirmation that it was widespread I let them all know. That would have been mid February. There was never any conspiracy to keep it quiet (in the magazines), just normal juddering in the lines of comunication. I'm not saying that I got the impression that Warners were ecstatic about what I was doing, but they have a different set of worries than the Editorial staff.

And Jonathan is a lad from the fens - hills scare him to death. He has since been extremely helpful getting this defect into the public eye. If you look at this months MMM there are two reference to the juddering, one of which even states that a gearbox was ruined in the process.

Hopefully it is significant for Peugeot owners that they may be on the verge of acknowledging the problem. In the last few days Peugeot HQ Technical staff have admitted openly to two owners after driving their vehicles that there is indeed a defect in their vehicles, and that the juddering is unacceptable.

 

[colin weston]

The fact that some vans dont judder should allow the difference between those with the problem and those without to be identified. As Tracker says it may be due to a batch of faulty components. It could also be due to the fact that many manufacturers dual source components to ensure security of supply. Perhaps one supplier is sending in components at one extreme of the tolerance band. If Fiat and Peugeot collect all the chassis numbers of those vans that judder they might be able to work out the contributory factor(s). I already had to give Peugeot Customer Care the information regarding the new coolant vent pipe that had to be fitted with the engine cover as they were having problems fitting the new cover. It is apparent that the larger the engine and hence the higher the engine torque, the worse the judder. presumably the smaller engines have the same clutch. What about the 3 litre engine?

[AndyStothert]

Colin,

This isn't intended as a rebuke but we've already been through all the different ideas about how when why and which to absolutely no conclusion. Perhaps we're just a dumb bunch, but there really doesn't seem to be a pattern unless you accept the Fiat theory.

What we do know (sort of) is that they (the worst judderers) are mostly 6 speed variants, but not all. That they range from the very newest, to the earliest and that Fiat reckon it is simply a characteristic of the vehicle. They have even demonsrated this to one unhappy owner by showing them that a random vehicle plucked from the ordinary van stock did exactly the same thing. This is the Fiat theory - they are all doing it so why worry?

Unless of course you suffer a clutch or gearbox failure. In which case Fiat will say absolutely nothing - not even to the owner of the vehicle.

Why there should be such variation in the severity may point to another Fiat deficiency - poor quality control of the parts which cause it.

Weight too may be a factor, until you examine the difference between our 2500kg camper (broken gearbox, and not that bad a judderer in normal use) and a tag axle monster weighing twice as much, but juddering just the same.

In short, none of them are a safe buy presently, though it seems that the 5 speed models are juddering less than the 6 speed ones.

BUT Peugeot have just openly admitted that one of the owners 5 speed models is defective, and that the juddering is unacceptable.

They haven't yet said what they intend to do about it, and we await their decision anxiously.......

Baffled? Yep, we all are, but also annoyed and frustratred by Fiat's lack of sensible response to its customers.

 

Meanwhile I'm off for the rest of the week furthering the knowledge of this debacle in the fens of eastern England, so can all you imaginative folk keep this in the forefront of forum activity.

Also, we're hoping Watchdog will be on the case as they have been in touch showing a keen interest in how things are going.

 

[libby]

Good for Watchdog, I did and I expect many others contacted them, they are usually very good in their responses.

[RoyH]

Just to keep it at the top.

[Screamin Eagle]

I think it has been ascertained that the problem is there on most variations of vehicle's. I have this problem on a new Ducato Van with the 2.3 ltr engine and 6 speed box & also a new Hymer with the 3 ltr engine and 6 speed box. Why only in reverse?