Rayjsj Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Tomo3090 - 2008-05-14 5:26 PM "Rectify the anomaly that is happening in a small percentage of the SEVEL vans when some drivers perform a reversing manouvere at the extreme end of the vehicles operating range. " The Extreme end of the vehicles operating range ????? Reversing a normally loaded Motorhome up a hill, without cooking the clutch by over revving/slipping it. AND not shaking itself or it's gearbox to bits, SHOULDN'T be out of any normal vehicles operating range......if it is ?then the fault IS with the vehicle. I still won't be buying an X250 propelled Motorhome new or secondhand until we find out what the problem is/was. Blaming drivers competance is the last refuge of a Scoundrel ( a misquote !! ) come on Fiat YOU HAVE A PROBLEM ! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Bump ! to the top. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 " an anomaly that is happening in a small percentage of the SEVEL vans when some drivers perform a reversing manouvere at the extreme end of the vehicles operating range." This phrase was actually one used on a letter to a mate of mine who wrote to and received a reply from FIAT in Italy. Unfortunately he is away touring at the moment so I can't reproduce the full letter, but the phrase naturally stuck in my mind. He was not best pleased at this and fired off a reply in more colourful terms as to what they could do with their van chassis if his failed on him while he was away, but so far so good! I believe they have changed the stance somewhat since though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Nearly at btm of page 24, don't bump it to often over week end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 " an anomaly that is happening in a small percentage of the SEVEL vans when some drivers perform a reversing manouvere at the extreme end of the vehicles operating range." This phrase was actually one used on a letter to a mate of mine who wrote to and received a reply from FIAT in Italy. Unfortunately he is away touring at the moment so I can't reproduce the full letter, but the phrase naturally stuck in my mind. He was not best pleased at this and fired off a reply in more colourful terms as to what they could do with their van chassis if his failed on him while he was away, but so far so good! I believe they have changed the stance somewhat since though. That will be good news to many, perhaps they have at last tracked down the Fault, and fixed it ! The alternative doesn't bear thinking about, with Sevel underpinnings on 80% (a guess) of all M/H's sold, buying secondhand and out of warranty would be as dangerous as swimming amongst a shoal of Great White Sharks. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Rayjsj - 2008-05-17 3:06 PM That will be good news to many, perhaps they have at last tracked down the Fault, and fixed it ! The alternative doesn't bear thinking about, with Sevel underpinnings on 80% (a guess) of all M/H's sold, buying secondhand and out of warranty would be as dangerous as swimming amongst a shoal of Great White Sharks. :D This was my thought at first, but I now don't think so, unless Fiat come up with a fix that they retrofit to existing vans I think for years to come we may be getting regulier posts from people with this problem. At first they blamed it on overloaded vans, but as soon as you analise their press release it becomes obvious they have a funamental problem, after all a 3.5tonne van has a max GTW of 6tonne, I have not heard of anyone who has a problem being anywhere near this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisD Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Hi All. We have a 2007 peugeot boxer 2.2, Compass Avantgarde 140, bought from new. Yes it judders badly in reverse and we have had the ' vehicle characteristics' bit from the main dealers. Won't accept that anymore. Does anyone know the recall list for this vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Calling all 'Judderers' MMM magazine (June issue) is requesting feedback from all those suffering the problem. See page 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 They are indeed, but did you see the report on the Hi Top vans with the Sevel engines? Well according to the test report there has been some water ingress problems with the engine that have now been fixed and, I quote, " a reported judder when in reverse" end quote. Nothing else, no mention of whether the tester did any reversing, no mention of what FIATs' reaction is, nothing, just a "reported judder!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Tomo3090 I havn't got that far yet, the magazine only arrived this morning. However, you would think that anyone testing a van now must be aware of the problem and would see whether or not it is present on that particular test vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exustrek Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Tomo3090 - 2008-05-19 6:52 PM Nothing else, no mention of whether the tester did any reversing, no mention of what FIATs' reaction is, nothing, just a "reported judder!" True, however, 40,000 readers will read these glowing X250 reports of genuine problems & genuine poor Fiat customer relations, from genuine fellow motorhomers with nothing to profit from telling it the way it is, this form of advice / warning is generally accepted to be highly regarded. The tips, experiences & advice i get from other motorhomers both here & elsewhere carry more weight than a glossy AD, report, or showroom staff patter, i believe most others will think the same. I can however see the advantage of journo reports or converters voicing their concerns, this might carry more weight with Fiat, but i doubt it. Over on MHF Swift themsleves have been waiting nearly two months!!! for a response from Fiat about the judder issue so they can report back to it's customers, it's embarrassing. If Swift can get no joy, then what chance anyone else? It's a start, i hope to see much more exposure for this issue, it deserves some attention from Fiat who need to be shamed into fulfilling their moral obligation to provide some peace of mind for it's customers who are having to live with Fiat's blunders & their dissmissive attitude towards their customer's protestations. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 colin weston - 2008-05-19 7:59 PM However, you would think that anyone testing a van now must be aware of the problem and would see whether or not it is present on that particular test vehicle. Colin, I think you are right, maybye reversing up a hill isn't part of any testers remit. ?? To be fair i think that MMM are brave to print the three Readers letters that they have on page 21 this month, AND inviting others to follow suit. As had been said before there is a LOT of money at stake here, Fiat WILL eventually have to climb down and put things right, the alternative will mean them being left with thousands of unsold units. And Secondhand ones being unsaleable. I think It's a bit like 'The Emperor's new Clothes' everyone knows that he's naked, but most are afraid to say (print) anything. Bravo MMM. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Despite a pricetag of just £25,995, the Peugeot Boxer-based Elddis Autoquest 120 saw off strong challenges from the UK and Europe’s biggest manufacturers to take the Best Coachbuilt up to £36,000 category as well as the overall title. The judges, who included Which Motorcaravan managing editor Mark Sutcliffe, MMM road test editor Dave Hurrell and regular road tester Mike Le Caplain, praised the Autoquest’s 'astonishing value for money' and refined driving characteristics. No juddering then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Rayjsj - 2008-05-19 8:23 PM Colin, I think you are right, maybye reversing up a hill isn't part of any testers remit. ?? To be fair i think that MMM are brave to print the three Readers letters that they have on page 21 this month, AND inviting others to follow suit. As had been said before there is a LOT of money at stake here, Fiat WILL eventually have to climb down and put things right, the alternative will mean them being left with thousands of unsold units. And Secondhand ones being unsaleable. I think It's a bit like 'The Emperor's new Clothes' everyone knows that he's naked, but most are afraid to say (print) anything. Bravo MMM. :D True, but I don't think the pain will get to Fiat quite so fast as you are surmising. Speculative, I know, but the chassis are generally built to order. Computer aided production now makes that a fairly simple process. The first of the pain, will, it seems to me, be felt by the converters who have ordered the chassis. If the public won't buy Fiat based motorhomes, orders will diminish, and the converters will get stuck with the ones they have ordered from Fiat. That just means reduced sales on the Fiat chassis, with the existing stock of chassis sitting around until they eventually do get sold. The dealers shouldn't feel the pinch too much, assuming the public just switches to vans on alternative chassis, of which there now more that a few years back. So, I think it will be the converters who suffer initially, with numbers of unsold chassis (for which they will have had to pay Fiat) filling their yards. The problem of second-hand vans will just come back to the public, through reduced trade-in values on the current crop of judderers. I don't think the pain will get to Fiat until the converters - always assuming they do suffer reduced sales on the new Fiat chassis - scale back their orders to Fiat. Maybe for the 2009 year, maybe 2010, if it happens at all. However, if the public continues buying Fiat based vans in reasonable numbers, I doubt anything much will change at Fiat. They will need a real fright before they introduce major changes. Just expect a Mk 2 version of the chassis sometime in the next couple of years, which will miraculously turn out not to judder, maybe it won't even leak!Moral? If you think the judder may be a problem for you, or if you want to be sure of a good trade-in price in future, don't buy a van based on a Sevel chassis at present, even if that means compromising on favoured makes or layouts. Too much uncertainty. Leastways, that's my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 For 07 plate I think only Fiat knew their was a potential problem By 57 plate I recon convertors and large dealers knew of problem any 08 plate vehicles have been sold in full knowledge of the problem Fiat, well they have treated owners with contempt in past and no dought will continue to do so. I have little sympaphy for convertors who continue to use this base vehicle As for the dealers, when I hear of people trading in at a loss and buying anothough van, that realy piss's me off, at that rate they are making extra profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 The Dealers who are selling Sevel based M/h's and saying either 'nothing' about the 'Judder' or some other 'it'll go away' excuse, will be the first ones to offer a lower trade in value when that time comes. The sooner this thing gets sorted the better ! What is happening on the Continent ?? they must be getting similar problems ? I can't see the French putting up with 'The Status Quo', They will start burning M/h's on Fiats front Door . Maybye thats what they need. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 colin - 2008-05-20 9:44 PM For 07 plate I think only Fiat knew their was a potential problem By 57 plate I recon convertors and large dealers knew of problem any 08 plate vehicles have been sold in full knowledge of the problem quote col, is you suggesting that fiat never reversed one of there own vehicles before launch. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 No, just saying early on Fiat might have known, but convertors/dealers wouldn't have. I'll also say now, that it is my belief that it is more than soft engine mount and wrong gearing, as it would take very little to sort that out, which makes my point finger at DMF and clutch, if its a redesign of these it might even mean new flywheel housing and/or gearbox casting and in worse case new engine block, that would be a reason Fiat don't apear to have fixed it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 penberthy, our local (too friendly sumtimes) mechanic, says thro im a few million liras me ansums and e sort it out in a few weeks. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 yes they do judder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Bump ! to the top. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamesist Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 OK everyone. I've been quite for a month giving Fiat Peugeot a chance to get something sorted. I have been in contact with Peugeot customer service who eventually contacted me after threats from my dealer. Peugeot are admitting that there is a problem BUT ..they do not know the exact cause as yet. Work in progress. Therefore it is useless speculating on possible causes here. Peugeot also have said that each case will be assessed on its merits (as expected) and it is up to individual owner to make their cases. I do not think this is acceptable. How many owners are out there that have accepted the 'vehicle characteristics' poly and will be surprised when their gearboxes disintegrate? Those on the email list will know that I am a advocate of 'direct action' - meaning a little day out at Fiat Peugeot UK with as many owners as possible. If anyone else feels the same, perhaps it could just get a more positive response? Alan Seldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 Anyone read Honest John in The Telegraph on Saturday? Three mentions of juddering clutch effect put down to degrading DMF flywheels, the third having failed at 12000 miles. HJ recons heat from clutch slipping accelerates failure of the DMF. So much for Fiat's advice on keeping the revs up! Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 Anyone read Honest John in The Telegraph on Saturday? Three mentions of juddering clutch effect put down to degrading DMF flywheels, the third having failed at 12000 miles. HJ recons heat from clutch slipping accelerates failure of the DMF. So much for Fiat's advice on keeping the revs up! Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 Tried to post this a few minutes ago but it didn't appear so here we go again. Did anyone read Honest John in The Telegraph on Saturday? Three mentions of clutch judder due to degrading DM flywheels, the third having failed at 12000 miles. HJ recons failure is accelerated by heat due to clutch slipping. So much for Fiat's advice to keep he revs up! Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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