Gas Advice

[panagah]

I have been looking in to fitting a gaslow system. Using one 11kg bottle and keeping a back up propane of 6kg just in case I am caught short. This is mainly due to a lot of our trips to France and europe and the difference in the gas bottles.

However I note with the gaslow system you still need adapters depending on which country you are in to fill up. It therefore looks expensive for someone that does not actually use a massive ammount of gas.

 

Is it therefore not possible to buy some sort of connector that conects on to the regulator and then adapts to a standard continental bottle? Or is this not an option.

 

Gaslow fitting looks quite straight forward has anyone undertaken this work themselves? If so were there any pitfalls? I see there is some regulator difference between my 03 van and regulators fitted after 04. Other than this I can not see any major issues, but would prefer to save money on an adaptor option.

[Brian Kirby]

As you don't use much gas, Gaslow seems an expensive remedy.  You haven't said how many bottles, of what size/s, your gas locker will take.

However, if it will take two 13Kg Calor bottles, you may find it cheaper to just buy another 13Kg bottle in France (Butagaz, or similar).  Assuming you have a 30mb gas regulator fixed to the wall of your gas locker, all you would need to get before arriving in France is a standard UK Butane "tail", which will connect to a French propane bottle.  Then buy, and connect, the French bottle.  2 x 13Kg bottles, one Calor propane and one French propane, should keep you going for weeks. 

If your locker will take only one 13Kg and one 7Kg, I'd still buy a bottle in France, but would take a 7Kg Calor and buy a 13Kg in France.  Reason?  Bottled gas is, generally, quite a lot cheaper in France than UK, so best value comes from a large French bottle.  Also, the 7Kg size is not generally available in France - you get stuck with the French branded bottles, such as "Twiny" which are generally a) smaller capacity and b) relatively more costly.

We find one 13Kg bottle lasts us around 80-90 days in summer, mainly on hook-up.

[johnsandywhite]

:'( Just an addition to this. LPG is now MORE expensive in France than in the UK. :-S

[panagah]

Brian Kirby - 2008-01-17 5:56 PM

As you don't use much gas, Gaslow seems an expensive remedy.  You haven't said how many bottles, of what size/s, your gas locker will take.

However, if it will take two 13Kg Calor bottles, you may find it cheaper to just buy another 13Kg bottle in France (Butagaz, or similar).  Assuming you have a 30mb gas regulator fixed to the wall of your gas locker, all you would need to get before arriving in France is a standard UK Butane "tail", which will connect to a French propane bottle.  Then buy, and connect, the French bottle.  2 x 13Kg bottles, one Calor propane and one French propane, should keep you going for weeks. 

If your locker will take only one 13Kg and one 7Kg, I'd still buy a bottle in France, but would take a 7Kg Calor and buy a 13Kg in France.  Reason?  Bottled gas is, generally, quite a lot cheaper in France than UK, so best value comes from a large French bottle.  Also, the 7Kg size is not generally available in France - you get stuck with the French branded bottles, such as "Twiny" which are generally a) smaller capacity and b) relatively more costly.

We find one 13Kg bottle lasts us around 80-90 days in summer, mainly on hook-up.

Thanks for that Brian,That was really my thinking. So these converters, can they be brought in the UK? I can take to 13kg bottles. so I thought take one with me next time and buy one there and commence using it. This winter in France we did go through about 13kgs but that was in winter and would not be much of a problem when in France to replace it. However do you know if the french bottles are the same as say the German bottles or what I would buy in Italy or Croatia? in other words is it just the Brits that are different? Might save some money to come down and see you to have me cruise fitted!!Paul

[Brian Kirby]

johnsandywhite - 2008-01-17 6:21 PM :'( Just an addition to this. LPG is now MORE expensive in France than in the UK. :-S

Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG)?  Autogas, butane, propane?  Are you saying that all LPG is now more costly in France, or just certain brands/types? 

The main price difference, hitherto, has been in the rates of taxation applicable on opposite sides of the Channel. 

Have the French recently increased tax on LPG cylinders, or have you just exchanged a cylinder in France, and found it cost more than the last one you exchanged in UK? 

If the latter is the case, it might be worth checking the current UK price, since I think it has all risen sharply over the past few weeks.

[MandyAndy]

We had the conversion done when we first picked up our van, it sounded a simpler solution to dragging tanks in and out , we had an external filler point put in so the job is very easy.

 

I also made Andy from getting advise from here on which fitments we need when abroad go out and buy everyone we may ever need.

 

Have to say never needed one of them and they are still in their packets after 7 trips to France, Luxembourg, Belgium and Switzerland, we have a 11kg and a 6kg tank and not once been close to empty, 3 of the trips where done in the winter 2 with snow on the ground and there are 4 of us. We cook on gas and heat on gas and we seldom shower other than in the van.

 

We are both still glad we did it for the ease of it and the convenience, but think we went over board on the accessories we thought we may need.

 

Hope this helps

Mandy

[Derek Uzzell]

panagah:

 

I believe most of the things you are asking about were covered in the following thread:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10225&posts=17

 

Gas-bottle connection types differ widely throughout Europe - there is no "standard continental bottle" (and there probably never will be). The traditional threaded connection used in France differs from that used in Germany, Italy, Sweden, etc. It happens to be the same as that of a UK Calor 4.5kg butane cylinder, but bears no resemblance to our traditional propane connection. As far as I'm aware, the UK-norm propane connection is unique to this country.

 

If (as seems likely) your motorhome's present gas system involves a 37mbar propane regulator attaching directly to the gas-bottle and using the UK-standard left-hand threaded male screw-in POL connection, then (as I've said in the past) the simplest and cheapest ploy when changing from a UK gas-bottle to a 'foreign' one is almost certainly just to replace the UK regulator when you obtain the foreign bottle.

 

An adapter to convert a UK POL connection to a French female connection certainly used to be marketed in France. It was advertised for about 28 euros in accessory catalogues like "Masters Accessoires" and "Top Accessoires" and you might be able to obtain it via their websites. I doubt you'd find it stocked on French motorhome/caravan dealers' shelves (I've never spotted one) and I don't think it is available in the UK.

 

Also advertised in French accessory catalogues (and I have seen this at French motorhome dealerships) is a set of three adapters (around 90 euros in price) designed to convert a standard FRENCH female connection to a variety of non-French gas-bottle connections including the UK POL propane connection and the German-norm propane screw-on connection. Replacing your existing UK regulator with a standard French 37mbar propane regulator (sold in most French hardware shops and motorhome dealerships, though you might need to purchase a supplementary 'nipple' to fit the regulator to your gas hose) would allow you to connect to large French propane bottles (though you'd need further adapters if you wanted to use the smaller ones), while adding to the French regulator the appropriate adapter from the conversion-set would permit you to swap easily to a UK, German, etc. propane bottle.

 

(Regarding 'cruise', I think you may be confusing Brian Kirby with Dave Newell.)

 

 

Brian Kirby:

 

I'm guessing that johnsandywhite is using LPG as a synonym for 'autogas' (or GPL as the French call it). I was under the impression that autogas had been more expensive in France than in the UK for quite some time, but, although I use UK and French autogas in my refillable gas-bottle, I don't use much so I've never bothered to make a price comparison.

[johnsandywhite]

B-) Autogas. In case they use a re0fillable.

Our new neighbours have an LPG converted RV. They were surprised when they filled up how much more It cost than in the UK. I usually look at the prices on passing through France as I used to have an LPG converted RV. The MOST expensive is of course on the Autoroutes.

[Brian Kirby]

Yes but, whereas all Autogas is LPG, not all LPG is autogas. 

The gas in refillable cylinders is also LPG, so it seems your statement was not, in fact, correct (i.e. that LPG is now more expensive in France than in UK).  So far as I am aware, it remains the case that LPG in refillable cylinders is considerably cheaper in France, albeit probably more costly per litre than Autogas.

[Don Madge]

Brian,

 

What our friend meant was it is more expensive to refill your refillable bottle/tank on the continent (except Luxembourg maybe) than in the UK. This has been the case for some time now.

 

I think I've got it right.

 

Don

PS. Still siting on my backside here instead of relaxing in the warmth of Turkey.

[Randonneur]

15kg butane refill bottle today was 26 euros. (Primagaz)

[Guest Tracker]

Stating the obvious, gas consumption depends on many variables.

 

What time of year, where you go, how long for, whether you space heat by gas, how much oven cooking you do, whether you stay on site in the van a lot, whether you drive and tour most days using the cab heater and eating out, whether you heat water for a shower every day, and whether you use mains hook ups to name a few.

 

We don't use electric, don't use the oven, do like the van warmish in the evenings, only when very cold have heat on all night, do tour a lot and a 6kg bottle lasts us about 10 to 12 days in UK winter and about 20 to 25 days in summer.

 

We carry a 6kg, an 11kg and I can take a 2.9kg Camping Gaz (with pigtail and adapter) as an emergency supply. We can also carry a fold up single burner stove with spare cannisters!

 

On that basis I would expect almost 20kg of gas to last me at least 30 days in winter and probably at least twice that in summer.

 

Use the 6kg bottle first as it is easier to store empty in the van to make room for the 907 in the gas locker!

 

 

[johnsandywhite]

Don Madge - 2008-01-18 11:52 AM

 

Brian,

 

What our friend meant was it is more expensive to refill your refillable bottle/tank on the continent (except Luxembourg maybe) than in the UK. This has been the case for some time now.

 

I think I've got it right.

 

Don

PS. Still siting on my backside here instead of relaxing in the warmth of Turkey.

 

B-) Thanks Don. ;-)

[panagah]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-01-18 8:37 AM

 

panagah:

 

I believe most of the things you are asking about were covered in the following thread:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10225&posts=17

 

Gas-bottle connection types differ widely throughout Europe - there is no "standard continental bottle" (and there probably never will be). The traditional threaded connection used in France differs from that used in Germany, Italy, Sweden, etc. It happens to be the same as that of a UK Calor 4.5kg butane cylinder, but bears no resemblance to our traditional propane connection. As far as I'm aware, the UK-norm propane connection is unique to this country.

 

If (as seems likely) your motorhome's present gas system involves a 37mbar propane regulator attaching directly to the gas-bottle and using the UK-standard left-hand threaded male screw-in POL connection, then (as I've said in the past) the simplest and cheapest ploy when changing from a UK gas-bottle to a 'foreign' one is almost certainly just to replace the UK regulator when you obtain the foreign bottle.

 

An adapter to convert a UK POL connection to a French female connection certainly used to be marketed in France. It was advertised for about 28 euros in accessory catalogues like "Masters Accessoires" and "Top Accessoires" and you might be able to obtain it via their websites. I doubt you'd find it stocked on French motorhome/caravan dealers' shelves (I've never spotted one) and I don't think it is available in the UK.

 

Also advertised in French accessory catalogues (and I have seen this at French motorhome dealerships) is a set of three adapters (around 90 euros in price) designed to convert a standard FRENCH female connection to a variety of non-French gas-bottle connections including the UK POL propane connection and the German-norm propane screw-on connection. Replacing your existing UK regulator with a standard French 37mbar propane regulator (sold in most French hardware shops and motorhome dealerships, though you might need to purchase a supplementary 'nipple' to fit the regulator to your gas hose) would allow you to connect to large French propane bottles (though you'd need further adapters if you wanted to use the smaller ones), while adding to the French regulator the appropriate adapter from the conversion-set would permit you to swap easily to a UK, German, etc. propane bottle.

 

(Regarding 'cruise', I think you may be confusing Brian Kirby with Dave Newell.)

 

 

Brian Kirby:

 

I'm guessing that johnsandywhite is using LPG as a synonym for 'autogas' (or GPL as the French call it). I was under the impression that autogas had been more expensive in France than in the UK for quite some time, but, although I use UK and French autogas in my refillable gas-bottle, I don't use much so I've never bothered to make a price comparison.

:$ :$ :$

 

Thanks for that Brian, comprehensive as usual and yes I did mean Dave Newall :$

[Brian Kirby]

Don Madge - 2008-01-18 11:52 AM Brian, What our friend meant was it is more expensive to refill your refillable bottle/tank on the continent (except Luxembourg maybe) than in the UK. This has been the case for some time now. I think I've got it right. Don PS. Still siting on my backside here instead of relaxing in the warmth of Turkey.

Hello Don.

Yes I'd guessed that was the case as well, but it wasn't what they'd said, and the statement as posted could have misled others into thinking the likes of Calor (UK), are now cheaper than the likes of Butagaz (France).

However, all is now clear, so thanks to everyone. 

PS.  Sorry about yer bum.  :-)

[eljay]

I have two large Gaslow cylinders fitted to my 'van and can give you a price comparison for Autogas. In November, I filled up in the UK when virtually empty at a non-filling station gas supplier at 43 pence per litre. Back in France, I recently had to refill and paid 0.78 euros per litre (78 cents / litre).

 

I fitted a gaslow system to a previous 'van and found it a fairly simple procedure, although I have to admit to a certain amount of concern as I started up the drill for the first time with the hole saw attached. Don't forget to check inside the vehicle for bulkheads and other possible obstructions. Measure several times to make sure you have the positioning correct.

 

Hope this helps in your thinking.

 

Regards,

 

J

[Tomo3090]

We have 2 7kg Gaslow bottles on our Compass Avantgarde and spent 12 weeks in the UK, France & Spain from early May to late August last year. We had no problems at all in France, topping up off the autoroutes was quite cheap. We topped up in Spain and it was cheaper still.

 

We didn't need to carry any spare bottles of any type because it was so easy to find supplies and top up.

 

We spent a total of 20 Euros in gas for the 12 weeks we were away from home, and that included topping up before we came back to the UK.

 

We used gas for heating, (UK only!), cooking everyday, the fridge, (when not hooked up), and heating the hot water when not on sites, (most of the trip).

 

Hope this helps and have a good trip!

[Brian Kirby]

This is a bit rough and ready, but may be food for thought.

An exchange 13Kg Butagaz propane cylinder is currently quoted on their website at a little over €27.  This contains 13Kg of gas, equal to about 26 litres, so the gas is, roughly, €1.00 (say £0.75) per litre.

Autogas is being quoted at around €0.75 (say £0.60) per litre in France, cheaper elsewhere.  However, taking the price in France, that is roughly €0.25 (say £0.15) per litre cheaper than the per litre rate for the exchange cylinder.

A 2 x 11Kg Gaslow installation seems to work out, at today’s prices per Gaslow’s website, roughly £300.  To pay for the Gaslow installation, therefore, it seems to me you need to consume around 2,000 litres of gas.  We seem to use around 40 litres of gas per year.  At that rate of consumption, it would take us 50 years to break even - or am I missing something?  Could be the maths, of course, wouldn’t be the first time that has let me down.  However, optimistically, please check and discuss.  :-)

[Don Madge]

Brian,

 

You must remember many people like us have a refillable for convenience. Due to age and disability neither of us can lift a 13kg gas bottle. The refillable has made life a lot easier over the last four and a half years.

 

Don

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Agreed, Don, and their convenience under those circumstances is beyond dispute.  No criticism of refillables per se, or of those who choose them, for whatever reason, is intended.  (Almost a legal disclaimer, that :-)) 

However, much of the justification for refillable installations, including advantages claimed by their manufacturers, is economic.  It is only the assumptions underlying the claimed economic advantages that I'm questioning.

I accept that none of us can realistically claim owning a motorhome brings economic advantage, but for many the cost is near the maximum they can afford.  It may, therefore, be of advantage to those who can still (only just though!) manage to hoik a 28Kg cylinder into their van, to know that despite the cost advantage per litre of (non UK) gas in favour of (non UK) Autogas, when the cost of a refillable installation is taken into account, they are unlikely to save money - at least not within their lifetimes.

[panagah]

I suppose I will have to go with Brian's advice (again). When I looked in to the reasons for getting gaslow it was mainly for convienience. However with 2 13 kg bottles in the locker I am sure that I can insure that I would have enough gas for a three week winter away (with some nights on EHU). On a cost point of view I looked and priced up what I would need to have one gaslow mounted next to a standard can. Total cost was about £200, based on this and with me averaging 9 weeks use per year including weekends away that would take more years to see any saving than I would probably be keeping my current MH for.

However when my full timing dream becomes a reality I think it will become a reality.

[Basil]

panagah - 2008-01-20 11:23 PM

 

On a cost point of view I looked and priced up what I would need to have one gaslow mounted next to a standard can. Total cost was about £200, based on this and with me averaging 9 weeks use per year including weekends away that would take more years to see any saving than I would probably be keeping my current MH for.

 

Not sure where you got your £200 price from as Waudbys are charging £84.95 for the 11Kg number 1 cylinder and £50 for the filling kit which equals £134.95 by my reckoning, you mabe need a Butane pigtail if you don't already have one but that is only another £16.95, the actual installation can be done by anyone who changes their own Calor type cylinder and can drill a hole there is no difference and it takes all of an hour. You can then swap it ll onto any new van you bought so the length of time you have your current van is irrelevent unless you decide to give up altogether.

I also think it is not quite right to look at European prices of gas and Autogas either, the reason you install a Gaslow system particularly for continental use is convenience and always having the ability to fill up with more gas. Based on Uk Calor prices our system that we have had for over three years is already in profit.

I can see what Brian is saying re value when someone is as frugal with gas as he is but we use on average around 0.9Kg/ day i.e an 11Kg cylinder lasts us about 10 days. The saving we have made over Calor refills has paid for our system.

 

Bas

[panagah]

Basil - 2008-01-21 11:39 AM

 

panagah - 2008-01-20 11:23 PM

 

On a cost point of view I looked and priced up what I would need to have one gaslow mounted next to a standard can. Total cost was about £200, based on this and with me averaging 9 weeks use per year including weekends away that would take more years to see any saving than I would probably be keeping my current MH for.

 

Not sure where you got your £200 price from as Waudbys are charging £84.95 for the 11Kg number 1 cylinder and £50 for the filling kit which equals £134.95 by my reckoning, you mabe need a Butane pigtail if you don't already have one but that is only another £16.95, the actual installation can be done by anyone who changes their own Calor type cylinder and can drill a hole there is no difference and it takes all of an hour. You can then swap it ll onto any new van you bought so the length of time you have your current van is irrelevent unless you decide to give up altogether.

I also think it is not quite right to look at European prices of gas and Autogas either, the reason you install a Gaslow system particularly for continental use is convenience and always having the ability to fill up with more gas. Based on Uk Calor prices our system that we have had for over three years is already in profit.

I can see what Brian is saying re value when someone is as frugal with gas as he is but we use on average around 0.9Kg/ day i.e an 11Kg cylinder lasts us about 10 days. The saving we have made over Calor refills has paid for our system.

 

Bas

 

 

Thanks for that Basil.

Having looked again the cheapest I can get the parts is £154. That includes the filler kit and something else I need as My van is a 2003 with a regulator that screws straight in to the bottle. I also included some fandango gauges to indicate the gas level so I could check out if I had enough gas prior to pullingon to a site. I do think that my wife may well be of the same school of frugal gas use as Brian when I attempted to get her to fund it for me.

[Brian Kirby]

Basil - 2008-01-21 11:39 AM ............. I can see what Brian is saying re value when someone is as frugal with gas as he is but we use on average around 0.9Kg/ day i.e an 11Kg cylinder lasts us about 10 days. The saving we have made over Calor refills has paid for our system. Bas

Basil

I'm not trying to be clever in asking this, but are you sure there is no leakage on your system? 

We do not set out to be particularly frugal with the gas. 

We cook with it all the time, but we do use campsites and their facilities plus hook-up most of the time.  We use the Truma blown air heating if it is chilly, and occasionally for water heating.  We do not use the van in winter, but generally between early April and late October.  We tend to travel for 8-12 weeks at a time, favouring southern Europe so far.  I reckon, on the above basis, that one 13Kg cylinder of gas will last us one and a half trips, say 14-16 weeks, depending a bit on weather.

However, getting through 11Kg in 10 days seems a huge amount of gas to me, unless you are quoting winter use.  Even if using gas for water heating, I can't quite see how one would get through that much.

[Derek Uzzell]

panagah:

 

You asked originally about UK-to-foreign gas-bottle adapters. I recently came across the following:

 

http://paellastore.com/Lpg_accessories.htm

 

One adapter claims to convert a UK propane connector-type to a French or German type. Another gadget would permit filling of a UK propane bottle with autogas.

 

(PS. I know nothing about the company offering these accessories.)