michele Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 can you imagine French & english all together that would be nice they wouldnt know what hit them they can't just get away with fobbing off people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 O.K. just trying to get my head round this, Andy's van wreaked reverse in july last year, I recall him posting that he didn't share his view that there was an endemic fault with sevel vans till some time after(can't find that post),I know I'm the cat that will be killed by curiousity,but if I heard that story then I would try it out, hasn't there been a great deal of these vans tested by Warners writers since, have they been asked to try reversing up steep hills? or has there been a general issue of rose tinted glass's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I'm not sure I fully understand Colins posting, but I think he's trying to say that my original posting (that I thought there was an endemic fault with the X250) was met with some doubts. It was bound to be, as we all want something good in our lives, not bad. As for the reporting of such matters in magazines - who saw this defect coming? It is so fundamental that we would expect the manufacturer to have tested them in reverse up a steep hill. In other words when we're testing a vehicle we aren't looking for major cock-ups by the vehicle manufacturer. A lesson for the future perhaps? As for the way the magazines have reacted to this it does take a few months for things to filter through and there will be much more activity from our band of unhappy owners showing up in the magazines during the next few months. If anyone can think of any way of getting more motorcravanners looking at this forum (by planting the seeds in other forums etc) then feel free to do it. Because of the size of the problem we all suspect Fiat will not acknowledge it until the market (falling sales) forces it upon them So, if you're getting bored by all this I'm sorry, but we will continue to chip away at them until we either get our vehicles fixed or they end up in the scrapyard. IF YOU HAVE A FIAT (or Peugeot) X250 motorhome go and find a steep hill (about 1:5 should do it) and reverse it up. If you aren't happy with the way it does it then complain to Fiat. This defect can, and will, cause clutch and gearbox failures. If you own one and want to help out in this ongoing (but shouldn't have been necessary) battle with Fiat email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 If you missed this on the other thread. Just a gentle reminder to judder sufferers, if you haven't yet been intouch with VOSA. Could you please phone Paul Traviner Tel: 0117 954 3300 and express your concerns about the safety aspects, when having to reverse up a steep incline using high revs to combat the juddering, that it becomes unsafe. He will send you a form to complete and return. We've got to keep up the pressure from every angle we can think of. Thanks. Mike.H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Move to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 UP TO TOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Top Again. Support Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Today's victims of Fiat's Uncurable Juddering are forum users Arizona who bought a Hobby 770 last May with a Fiat 160 3 litre base vehicle. A Dream Machine? Well not for long, as within 4000 miles and just a few months use, it had chewed its way through two clutches. Any kind of reversing on even a slight gradient produced the now 'characteristic' juddering and molten clutch. The Fiat dealer was very helpful, and volunteered to keep replacing the clutches as need be, but told them that until Fiat came up with a solution to this that's all they could do. Result? The Arizona folk now have a Geist Matterhorn, with a Mercedes underneath which as the name suggests, will climb hills, even in reverse. But, as usual, this experience has cost them a great deal of cash, and where is that Hobby 770 now? Do you think these defective nearly new motorhomes will have been removed from the market? Are you looking for a second-hand low mileage Fiat based motorhome? Just ask yourself why is it there? Tomorrow a sad tale of Swift's Bolero............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Tomorrow it's the turn of Bessacarr on the Fiat Major Design Problems thread............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill R Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I may have voted in error!. I have the old type Boxer (55 plate) with the 2.2 diesel engine. no problems with reversing at all. Only problem with the chassis is that the gearlever freezes up in the winter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonYates Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Though the technical problems with clutch/gearbox on the latest Fiats are obviously the responsibility of Fiat to get sorted I feel that the motorhome press must share some of the blame for so many people getting into this mess. Many people rely very heavily on the motorhome Press (I’ll try and keep the criticism general) for helping them decide which motorhome to purchase as they do not have the technical capability to make a thorough assessment, all they want to do is get on and enjoy this fascinating pastime. Having tested many of the offending Fiats, many of which were over extended periods, and given such glowing reports, with no hint of juuuuudddddddeeeerrrrr. I really do think that the press has a moral responsibility to help out the unfortunate people who have been mis-guided into accepting all of the printed word. Were problems found during testing and comments suppressed by the suppliers, was pressure brought to bear with the threat of removing advertising revenue. We shall probably never know. I consider that with many specialist magazines whether it be cars, caravans or motorhomes etc they have an unhealthy cosy relationship with the industry suppliers. With the many generous hospitality arrangements etc etc. Under these circumstances it must be very difficult to remain impartial. Some magazines almost seem to be an extension of the suppliers marketing campaigns. If it subsequently emerges that the press have been economical with the truth then it will loose all of it’s credibility with the motorhome community. If the press feels that it is unable to deliver a worts and all appraisal of products because it is frightened of the suppliers then it must print some disclaimer in it’s articles so that the public can make up their own mind, however there must be some middle ground that will prevent this sort of major cock-up happening again that does not antagonise the supplier industry but most importantly gives a fair representation to the public. I think the time has come for MMM to get off the fence and start actively campaigning on the issue, also those members of this Forum who have the ear of the MMM ‘suits’ should start actively lobbying on behalf of the growing number of dissatisfied Fiat customers. It may have been stated before, the forum alone will have next to zero impact on Fiat, however general condemnation in the press may start to concentrate their minds. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hindsight is an exact science wereas foresight is often a lottery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Hi Don A bit harsh me thinks. My take on all this is that those who write the articles for the magazines about various 'vans should ALWAYS take them out on the road for a good run out. This is whether testing a second hand one or a new one. Simply saying they are nice vans with this and that accessory, layout etc, is not in my mind a proper test. They do NOT all drive the same, even the same base vehicle with a different 'van on top will have different driving characteristics. We can all look at the pictures but what we cannot do is drive them. The only way to give a full and honest appraisal of any van is to drive it, even if only for a short distance, at least it gives some idea of it's characteristics and manouvreability. If, during this drive, they can also check what it's like on hills, both going forwards and backwards, then even better. The best reports are from those who have done a proper run out, especially the "live in" tests and "long term loan 'van" tests. It may be me, but I feel that these have been thin on the ground of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Anybody want to buy a canoe??? http://www.micromaniacsclub.co.uk Bet your canoe goes faster with no judder up hill Mel :D I happen to agree with the young man we relied on MMM when we came into this game I think you are inclined when you know nothing about nothing to believe the big boys. I think the above is nicely put IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 no judder at moment tried reversing up hill . no problems my drive is on a slope .. no problem there. hope it stay es like this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonYates Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Hi Michele It's a long time since i've been called 'young man'. you've made an old man very happy!!!! Yes if magazines set themselves up as 'Industry Experts' then they have to face up to the responsibility towards its readers. I look forward to reading MMM's first article on the subject. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hindsight is an exact science wereas foresight is often a lottery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 With ref to my post of 29th feb, I partly agree with Don, prior to Andy having problems then the reversing judder may not have been evident, I don't think it fair to blame a tester for not reversing up a hill, BUT, once word got around about Andy's gearbox, and I'm guessing Warners staff knew before it was posted on this forum, then reversing uphill should be part of road test and commented about in report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I have a Peugot Boxer 100Hdi engine and have reached 8600 miles with no sign of a judder. Is it more evident on the FIAT engines than the others? Did anyone test drive their van before they bought it, did it judder then and if so what did the salesman say to convince you it was your driving and not the van? Could I suggest we all go down to a dealers and ask for a test drive and see what happens, if everyone walks out in disgust without buying you can bet FIAT will be aware of the fault within the hour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 This could be part of the problem, as I had a test drive when they first came out but I made no attempt to reverse it up any gradient let alone a 1 in 5. So I agree I will make a point of arranging a further test drive and make a point of finding a hill to reverse it up first! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 could arrange a rally at dealers .lol http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter/forum_images/smiley14.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Problem is it's a manufacturer of the base chassis problem not one caused by the dealers or motorhome manufacturers, I am sure that they are trying to pin down Fiat and co as well. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Basil. The dealers as you say may well want the problem sorted out but they could hold the key. They know how many units they have sold/on order and most people will have voiced their opinion to them about this and any other problems(water etc.etc.) The dealer generally kids on that he as never had the complaint before-your the first and it's a "one-off" But when it becomes a possible "epedemic" they owe it to their customers to come clean. Yes I know i'm too much of a gentleman,but the dealer is more aware than any other responsible body. IF they are doing anything(other than wish) then to go public to have a lot of m/h and possible m/h on their side. That would be good for the future of the industry!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Good point! Still think the VOSA route via their website to be the best option though, if they start to get multiple complaints they should take note. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 surely the manufacturers and dealers hav to take sum responsibity for this me ansums. they build on and sell the things so could possibly stand charged of sellin goods not fit for purpose or of mechantible quality - or watchdog type werds to that affect. if the manufacturers changed to fords then we woodnot av so many exsaperated members on this forum. but will any one take responsibilty my biddies?? do pigs fly? does alice tread litely? will penpillick hill ever be flat? needleanfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Fred, dear, They (Fiat) have us buy the short and curlies at the moment. They have 70% of the market and some designs and layouts are only available on a Fiat. So, if you want a motorhome of a particular type and it's only available on the one which wrecks it gearbox every time you reverse up a really steep hill, what do you do? (Actually I'm fibbing - ours has reversed up two very steep hills and only wrecked one gearbox, the second one did the clutch) Move to Norfolk? It'd be no bloody good if you had to reverse all the way up out of Chapel Porth, or Port Gaverne. Where was I? Oh yes, the dealers are loving it - folk are taking 'em back and P/X them for another when they get the judders. The manufacturers (especially if they build on nothing but Fiat) have a responsibility, but as yet they haven't accepted any. Right, where's that Scotch............ Oh and I nearly forgot. If you have an X250 Fiat go and reverse it up a really steep hill. If its a 5 speed model it will judder quite lot. If its a 6 speed one check that your local Fiat dealer has a spare gearbox in stock first, and cement your teeth in very firmly before the attempt. Ladies should purchase a sports bra if thye have the 6 speed model. If you want more info about what to do about your juddering Fiat (and let's not forget Peugeot) email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Not a lot of help from VOSA The Judder issue does not come under the safety defect Code. "In the instance under review, the concern is clearly making itself known to you and as such, we are unable to ask the manufacturer to take action under the terms of the Code." "However, Fiat are aware of customer complaints, and have issued a Service News Bulletin advising that should juddering occur during take off with the engine speed below 1200rpm, it should not be considered as a fault. Even if the vehicle can take off and start without accelerating, it is always advisable to release the clutch gradually whilst maintaining the engine speed above 1300rpm." "If after following the above advice the concern remains apparent. I would suggest that in the first instance; you again approach your dealer, and or your legal adviser as appropriate." So if the dealer cannot do anything, not much help. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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