Fiat Reversing problem

[JohnsCrossMotorHomes]

Brian Kirby - 2008-02-09 5:20 PM

 

Tell him to try reversing a fully laden motorhome up the ramp onto his own forecourt.  John's Cross is on a hill!  :-)

 

We do it all the time and all our new ones are Swift!

 

(lol) (lol)

[AndyStothert]

You are obviously unaware of the advice being given by Fiat.

They suggest increasing the revs to, err,......well whatever it takes, but definitely above 1300rpm.

I refer to Fiat Service News Circular reference 10/42.06 dated 24.11.06 which states this (1300rpm plus) is the definitive answer to the juddering.

I have sapre copy if you didn't receive one.

And ...attempting to set off backwards up a 1:5 without throttle results in going absolutely nowhere.

And....ours ate the contents of its gearbox during the said attempt at reversing backwards up the 1:5.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

JohnsCrossMotorHomes - 2008-02-09 8:52 PM

Brian Kirby - 2008-02-09 5:20 PM Tell him to try reversing a fully laden motorhome up the ramp onto his own forecourt.  John's Cross is on a hill!  :-)

We do it all the time and all our new ones are Swift! (lol) (lol)

This, I must see for myself.  Can I ask for a demo next time I'm in?

[Brian Peters]

if you think the Fiats bad, try reversing a Smart car up a hill, false teeth have got no chance. :-D

[Clive]

I can simply state that having had to reverse back up a mountain to a wider bit to let a HUGE coach full of tourists pass that a good reverse gear in more than a like, its a most definate MUST HAVE

 

 

[RoyH]

I see it's gone to page 2 so here it it is back on page 1

[Dave Newell]

I had the opportunity to test a 100 PS 2.2 litre Swift Sundance this afternoon on the ramp opposite my workshop. This is not a hugely steep hill, probably about 1 in 5 for a guess. First thing I noticed is a slight juddering vibration when reversing on the level, not what I would call full blown clutch judder but more of an unpleasant vibration when slipping the clutch. On the hill this got worse but not to the point where I thought major mechanical disaster was on the cards. I stopped on the steepest part of the hill and then restarted the reversing manouver using all of the methods described previously.

 

First of all normal reversing with revs at about 1500-1800 and slipping the clutch to move off smoothly:- no real problem doing this but the juddery vibration was very present. Next I tried John's Cross method of not touching the throttle and gently letting the clutch out:- worked OK but the juddery vibration was still very present.

 

Finally I tried Fiat's recomended approach, well I nearly did but 3000 RPM just sounded so terrible that I chickened out and let it go at about 2500 RPM:- the clutch bites so sharply that it is very difficult to slip it and let it in gradually meaning that the van took off up the hill like a cat with its @rse on fire.

 

In all attempts to reverse, including on the flat there was a very present vibration, I'd hardly call it a judder but this was a 100PS motor with five speed box.

 

As and when I get a chance to try a six speeder I'll let you know.

 

D.

[colin]

Well don't hang about NEC next week and I'm getting itchy fingers around the chequebook :D

[Derek Uzzell]

A few days ago I was speaking on the telephone to a motorcaravan dealer acquaintance who sells several different brands of motorhome based on the latest Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot chassis. I inquired if he was aware of the 'juddering-while-reversing-uphill' phenomenon that was being complained about widely on internet forums. He was startled to hear this statement, saying that he would have reversed dozens of vehicles built on current SEVEL platforms (big ones, small ones, 2.2/2.3/3.0 litre motors) up the steepish slope that leads to his firm's workshop and couldn't recall anything unusual about the exercise. He then asked one of his mechanics, who owns a new Adria, whether his motorhome juddered going backwards uphill. I didn't hear the exact reply, but I was told "He says it does a bit, but it doesn't worry him." The dealer added that no customer of his had mentioned that reversing their vehicles produced unusual mechanical symptoms, leading him to conclude that either the 'problem' wasn't particularly noticeable or drivers were choosing to adapt their driving technique to cope with (or suppress) it.

 

Out of curiosity I tried the 'no accelerator' ploy suggested by John Cross Motorhomes using my own Transit Mk 6-based Hobby. This provoked an unpleasant buzzing vibration that would, if I hadn't been experimenting, have immediately made me adopt a different technique. Hardly surprising really, as the vehicle's motor was being forced to operate under serious load at tick-over speed - not something the manufacturer would expect a driver with an iota of mechanical sympathy to contemplate doing. Essentially, the JCM technique is a party trick and common sense (and a minimal grasp of the Laws of Physics) should make it obvious that it won't need a very steep incline before the power that the motor can produce at tick-over will be insufficient to allow it to ascend the slope however delicately one feeds in the clutch.

 

It's a pity that the Fiat Service News Circular referred to earlier hasn't been quoted in full. The Circular's November 2006 date of issue isn't that long after the latest-model Boxer/Ducato/Relay vehicles began to be marketed, so it's not unreasonable to deduce that the juddering characteristic has been present from Square One and that buyers of the vehicles had found it sufficiently irritating to complain about it.

 

If Fiat is advising that, when reversing up a hill, the motor should be kept above 1300rpm to avoid inducing unwelcome vibrations, then I, personally, wouldn't be outraged by that advice as 1300rpm isn't that fast an engine speed. However, I find it hard to believe that Fiat would be suggesting that really high engine speeds (like 3000rpm) should be used as standard practice when backing up hills. There will be occasions when lots of throttle (and lots of engine revs) will be essential to start on, or maintain progress on, a steep slope, and there will inevitably be slopes so steep that a vehicle is mechanically unable to climb them (forwards or backwards) however astronomical the number of revs selected before letting in the clutch - but everybody knows that. Perhaps a forum member with access to the Fiat Circular could quote it here, then it might be better decided whether Fiat's advice is reasonable or not?

 

It would seem from everything that has been said so far that a negative mechanical characteristic has been introduced into current Boxer/Ducato/Relay vehicles. As all models seem to share this minus-point to a greater or lesser degree, the cause probably lies in the manner in which the motor and transmission are mounted. Simplistically speaking, the mounting arrangement that damps out vibrations when the vehicle's wheels are rotating forwards, fails to do so when the wheels are rotating in the opposite directions. If this is indeed the case, then it may be such a basic design flaw that it will be very hard to correct.

[eddie123]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-02-14 10:44 AM

 

Simplistically speaking, the mounting arrangement that damps out vibrations when the vehicle's wheels are rotating forwards, fails to do so when the wheels are rotating in the opposite directions. If this is indeed the case, then it may be such a basic design flaw that it will be very hard to correct.

 

Derek, this the point I made in an earlier thread and you have hit the nail on the head. Forget reverse ratio because it is better than first, forget all the stuff about flywheels and clutches; these components don't know whether they are going backwards or forwards.

 

However in reverse the torque reaction through the wheels to the chassis, suspension and all the mounting systems is totally different; here lies the problem and I believe the potential cure (and it won't be cheap).

 

regards

Ed

[Dave Newell]

In case its of any interest i've just tried a Peugeot 130 on the same hill and found that the JCM method of not touching the throttle produced a much more pronounced judder than normal or Fiat methods.

 

One thing I have noticed though is that the pedal travel distance between the clutch just starting to bite and being fully engaged is quite short, certainly shorter than the previous generation. This makes it quite difficult to slip the clutch and feed it in gradually.

 

D.

[colin]

Proboly difficult to tell, but do you think short pedal travel will just be a technic to master, I know with the suzi I had trouble with clutch travel and stalling for several weeks, but now I don't realy notice it.

[davenewellhome]

I'm sure the short clutch pedal travel will be something that owners will get used to and adjust their driving style accordingly. Having been in the motor trade and related industries for 30 years I'm lucky in being able to jump from one vehicle into another and just drive it, whether that be a land rover, mini or LHD 8 metre motorhome. My own daily transport (2000 escort estate 1.6 petrol) has a worn out clutch. The pedal has to go to the floor before you can select a gear (I'm just waiting for a replacement engine and new clutch for it) but I have no doubt I could get another 30,000 miles out of it if needed.

 

D.

[eddie123]

My local Fiat dealer confirmed that the juddering problem in reverse is more of an issue withe the later Fiats and is a "characteristic" of the model. I have spoken to Fiat Customer Care who appear to know nothing about the problem. I have now received a Case Number form Fiat and have forwarded it to Andy.

By the way for the technically minded amongst us, the other factor which will have some impact on the engineering/juddering, is that when going forward up an incline the line of action through the vehicles centre of gravity will shift towards the rear of the vehicle i.e lightening the load on the front wheels and loading up the rear; when going up an incline in reverse the opposite happens i.e the front wheels load up and the rear wheels lighten.

[eddie123]

Good News (apparently!!!)

I have just been contacted by a lady in Fiat Customer Care (13:30 today) and it would appear that there is now a fix for the juddering in reverse problem, as she put it the Fiat technicians in Italy have come up with a solution. The fix can be accessed by Fiat Dealers on their trade website. I have emailed Andy to keep him informed. It is strange however because Andy was speaking to the boss of Customer Care in Slough at 11:00 this morning and he knew nothing of this at that time. I hope I have not been mis-informed. Andy has not yet replied to my email.

[AndyStothert]

Good afternoon everybody,

I'm just attempting to calm down a little after speaking to Justin Westledge at Fiat (tel 01753 519598, give him ring if you're having a bad day, he's a very smooth chap) and he tells me there is no universal fix as far as he knows, because it hasn't been proved that my vehicle is operating outside of the technical parameters set out by the the Fiat engineers. That it eats gearboxes when reversing up hills is a different matter. He refuses to say whether any vehicles have been found to be working outside of the Fiat imposed parameters.

He says that my vehicle must (once more) be examined by the dealers to see if it is within the guidelines. Last time they looked at it they said 'yeah, it's juddering something horrible, but there's nowt we can do about it'.

Obviously Fiat don't want to discuss anything now for fear of it getting in the magazines and forums, and have withdrawn the information provided in the last letter I received which admitted there was a techniocal issue they were still trying to solve.

It may be that there is no acceptable solution, and they are now refusing point-blank to discuss the techical issues. This with a customer.

We shall see what happens next, but the next step is to consult VOSA with the list, so it's now crunch time.

ANYONE WITH A NEW MODEL FIAT DUCATO CAN YOU PLEASE REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL AND IF JUDDERS then contact me

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

(not that its actually working at this moment in time)

 

 

[Mike H]

Hi.

Just spoken to Andy, he is not receiving emails properly at the moment. He will reply as soon as. Told him about your phone call, Eddie123.

from Fiat. He is going to ask his Fiat agent if he has anything on the Fiat trade website. Lets hope there is some good news or if they (Fiat) are just stalling for time.

Mike H.

[eddie123]

As you were. I asked my local Fiat Dealer to search for the fix I was informed of this afternonn and it turns out to be one issued in 2006 ref using revs and clutch etc. You can't trust anyone!! Sorry for any false hopes raised

[Mike H]

This is what the "Service News" from Fiat to Dealers Says:

Dated 26/11/2006.

Ducato (250) All versions.

1000 0 000 AA Engine. Shuddering during take off on a hill in reverse - Network Information.

 

Following several reports of the engine shuddering during take off on a hill. It should be pointed out that:

- If the shuddering occurs during take off with the engine speed below 1200 rpm, it should not be considered as a fault.

- Even if the vehicle can take off and start without accelerating, it is always advisable to release the clutch pedal gradually maintaining the speed above 1300 rpm.

 

Mike H.

[Brian Kirby]

Mike

Do you happen to know which engine this refers to?  I appreciate it says the 1000 0 000 AA engine, but do you know which actual variant that is in terms of litres/PS/HP?

[Mike H]

Brian.

It says "Ducato" all versions. So I take to mean all variants.

The 1000 0 000 AA. I don't think this refers to a particular engine.

I'll PM you a copy.

Mike.

[Dave Newell]

Well as luck would have it I've just had the opportunity to try a 160 PS 3 litre six speed box. Under exactly the same conditions as the previous two vehicles I've tried I can report that it was no different. There is a definite and unpleasant vibration when reversing, as if one of the engine mountings had "bottomed out" and was giving metal to metal contact and thereby transferring engine vibration to the shell but I would certainly not call it judder. Again I tried all three methods of reversing and found no difference although I can report that the engine is quite capable of starting a reversing manouvre on my test hill with no throttle application at all.

 

D.

[AndyStothert]

Stardate 17.2.08

 

Daily Fiat Blog number 52

 

I've just typed out a very smart arsed well thought out thread about how after 40 years of driving, including numerous advanced driving courses with the constabulary (my former employers) Fiat have now told me I haven't a clue how to drive any more.

But, I've never been on a computer course and in the flurry of Scotch induced keyboard thumping it all disappeared to a radio station in Canada.

God only knows what they'll think it's all about.

Obviously I know as little about computer manipulaton as Fiat do about reversing up hills.

Am I making a point, besides attempting to talk a few more dissatisfied Fiat owners to contact me (andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk) and perhaps pursuade a few of you not to buy a Fiat based motorhome until they resolve matters?

Well yes: after things going desperately wrong with our Fiat the Customer Care team have been absolutely useless. Polite yes, but absolutely useless.

And after 8 months of juddering up hills backwards, one gearbox ruined, and the certainty that another steep hill will do exactly the same thing again, Fiat Customer Care tell me that it is a characteristic of the vehicle?

And the answer? I have to prove that that it is is a design defect.

Now that is what you call Customer Care.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Well. Andy, you could always ask them if the vehicle was designed to exhibit this characteristic when being reversed uphill.

If it was, it is as designed and they should have no qualms about that aspect of its performance being publicised. 

If it wasn't, then it doesn't perform within its designed parameters, so presumably the characteristic is a defect?  No? 

If they say neither, then Fiat have just invented a new definition of "design", which should be conveyed to the Oxford dictionary team as quickly as possible, for a special insert along the lines of:

Design "Fiat": a term used by this Italian manufacturer of motor vehicles to describe a performance intention that may or may not be achieved, depending upon the outcome of various unspecified events.  Has no commonly accepted usage.  Specific to this manufacturer only.

[rupert123]

Andy, have you considered that their are no more than a few dissatisfied customers. I sympathise with anyone who has a problem but as Fiat must sell tens of thousands of these vans every year and complaints are numbered in tens then I agree they should sort out the few complaints but it is hardly a major issue for most of us. I have been in the car business for years and have yet to see any new car without its share of recalls and problems. I have looked at buying a new motorhome in next couple of months and find, for me, the Fiat base one is best to drive, did it not also win the best base vehicle award this year? I will not hesitate to buy one as the problem seems to be with so few vehicles, hope you get yours sorted out though.