Downsizing?

[ike]

Help please. We're thinking of buying a smaller van (currently own a Hymer 7metres long which we love but it can be it bit of a problem manoevering in tight spaces). Has anyone else made the move from say a 7 metre to a 6m? I know it's all down to personal preference , usage etc but I'm just trying to get a feel for how others have managed. We do a couple of 4-6 weeks stints in Spain/France each year and also use it for week breaks, weekends in UK. We also have two big dogs. In the dim and distant past we have had smaller vans and have managed but only doing shortish uk trips. Others experience would be very useful in helping us to come to a decision.

Thanks

ike

[Hymer C 9.]

Hi, Ike, have you had a look at the Hymer 584 comes in just a fraction under 6 meters, but gives you most of the comfort of the 7 meter one, maybe worth a look. Carol.

[Don Madge]

Hi Ike,

 

I think there is a trend these days towards the panel van conversions. Recently I visited the Timberland factory and was amazed to see the number of late plated A Class and large coachbuilts that had been traded in for the smaller vans. It's not everybobodys cup of tea though, it can be a very expensive mistake if you get it wrong.

 

Four years ago due to ill health (unable to pass the dreaded 70+ medical) we had to downsize from our A class Laika Ecovip 400i (4200 kg M.A.M.).

 

We had had the Laika for two years and had fitted it out for winter touring.

Extras we had fitted were two sixty litre LPG tanks for domestic use, a

sixty watt solar panel and a Sporty Trailers aluminium back box. As standard the Laika had a 135 litre fridge/freezer, 115 litre fresh water tank, 140 litre waste water tank and a marine toilet of 52 litre capacity. We had just got the van sorted to our satisfaction when we had to part with it.

 

We usually wintered away for four or five months (Jan - May) then an Autumn trip (late Aug - mid Nov) usually seven/eight months continental touring in a year. We had spent Jan - April 2002 in Turkey and returned home via Rhodes Patras and Venice. The Laika was easy to drive, very spacious to live in and the only drawbacks we found during this extensive trip were difficulties in parking and the impossibility to take it down extremely narrow difficult roads to visit isolated ancient sites.

 

The search then started for a replacement motorhome, two single beds with a reasonable payload. It was a lot harder than we thought it would be. It could not be above 3500kg M.A.M. and we fancied a low profile coachbuilt but on most the payloads were inadequate for our needs. Some payloads were only 250 - 300 kg and we were still looking at fairly large motorhomes.

 

We then started to look at LWB high top vans and after much thought and

deliberation we settled for the Timberland Freedom 11 on the LWB Fiat Ducato with a payload of approx 500 kg. We were very apprehensive about laying out over £38,000 and having all our plans go pear shaped. We spent a great deal of time and thought before placing an order for the van.

 

Other vans we considered were the Autosleeper Dueto but this dropped out of contention when we discovered that they were now built on the MWB instead of the LWB chassis. We also considered the Murvi but as they are built in Devon and we live in Yorkshire we decided it was too far to travel if any problems arose and it's layout meant we could not have a back box. Another contender was IH Campers at Ferrybridge. They had very good product and offered to build to our specification but Timberland got the nod as they had the two single bed layout we wanted on the production line when we visited the works

 

 

The Timberland has all the same facilities that we had on the Laika. The

toilet/shower area is smaller but still as good as many coachbuilts. The

cooking facilities are actually better with a small full domestic cooker.

The fresh/waste water tanks are smaller but we don't find this a problem. In addition we carry four eight litre water containers for tea/coffee making.

We also prefer to fill the sixty litre fresh water tank with these - no long

hoses which are often inconvenient any way.

 

Our hobby of chasing the winter sun often means travelling through cold

weather before finding the sun. Before the Laika having enough LPG for

cooking, heating and the fridge was always a major problem.

 

We chose to have the optional Eberspacher diesel heater fitted at Timberland and later had a MTH Autogas 13kg refillable gas bottle with an external filler installed. This solved all the heating and LPG problems. Our sixty watt solar panel was fixed on the roof, this keeps the two leisure batteries and the engine battery topped up when not on the move.

 

Storage is down from the Laika but we still found room for all the

essentials. It wasn't easy but we got there in the end. Sporty Trailers

manufactured us a back box which hangs on the rear door which takes care of the loungers and camping equipment.

 

The main thing we had to come to terms with was the downsizing of the

fridge/freezer from 135 litres to 60 litres (I'm allowed one cold beer at a

time now) it just means you have to shop more frequently. This is not a

problem these days even in Turkey/Greece /Morocco. Large supermarkets are fairly frequent and even small village shops are much better stocked than they used to be and local markets are good.

 

General storage had to be juggled until it was right. The main thing being

not to take anything not strictly essential (no ballgown or tuxedo). One of

our main concerns was the fact that we might be falling over one another all the time. With a bit of thought and cooperation it never happened. Seating is comfortable and we can both lounge with feet up. Sleeping is also comfortable with still room to visit the loo and make tea.

 

If you are thinking of downsizing do your homework first. Sort out your

major priorities and look at all the options. If you get It wrong it can be

a very expensive mistake. It was forced upon us but now we feel it's done us a favour. It's almost halved our fuel bill, reduced our ferry crossings and

we have parked and visited places we would not have thought possible in the past. So our freedom has increased.

 

A five month tour of Turkey, Italy, Sardinia, Corsica and Austria went

quickly without a hitch and all we could say about it was - this is even

better than it used to be!!!

 

I hope this in some way helps.

 

Regards

 

Don

 

[fred grant]

our don is a bin there dun that sort of man ike so is advice is well worth is weight in gold (or aluminium at least).

 

us is not downsizin till alice looses a bit of gerth. that may be sum while so us will not be lookin at any wooden sheds or likewise for quite sum timr my biddies.

 

firkinfinfred

 

 

[Mel B]

Never mind helping them Don, you've sorely tempted me!!! Even though our Rimor is great, I never have got over changing from my lovely little baby Rapido! :'(

[Brian Kirby]

The two of you will be easily accommodated in a 6 metre van, but two plus two dogs - of almost any size - seems to me to be pushing it.

What you probably need to settle is whether it is the length of the van that is causing the problem, or the width, or a combination of both.  Getting a shorter van will not be difficult, but anything other than an A class bed, that uses the space above the driving seats and so liberates additional floor space, seems to me unlikely to provide sleeping space for the pooches. 

To me, therefore, you seem to be looking for a 6 metre (or close) A class van.  This narrows the scope, but not hopelessly.  However, if width is part of the problem and you want to get substantially below the almost obligatory 2.3 metres, I think you may struggle. 

There are now many narrower vans around, and even the odd A class (Knaus, Dethleffs), but the A class beds, where present, need careful evaluation because of the difficulty of getting a reasonable sized double into the narrower body.  For the narrow coachbuilts, all of which have fixed beds of some kind, space generally becomes a premium and the kind of half dinette fitted to most won't easily accommodate the dogs.  You may be able to find one where the rear "garage" could become a kennel, but I don't think the van would then be able to carry the other necessities for your trips, rather defeating the object. 

Therefore, to me, your search seems to narrow to a 6 metre x standard 2.3 metre A class van, preferably with no other bed than the drop down bed.  Say something like a Hymer B508?

[RonB]

I think Brian is right in suggesting that the width could also be your problem.

 

We downsized from a 8.2m coachbuild to a 6.8m A Class, both at stated 2.29m 'width', but find that the A Class is much more restricting. The main problem being that A Class wing mirrors stick out far more from the body making them at least a foot wider in reality. Why the majority of manufacturers of A Classes stick to telling porkies about the true width beats me. We have never found a problem with length.

 

We have other problems with A Classes and are in the process of going back to a coachbuilt, about the same length, but narrower.

[auntygranty]

We downsized a year ago from a Hymer 584 (about 19ft 6ins) To a Autosleeper Nuevo Es ( about 17 ft 10 ins) but quite narrower at 7 ft 2 ins with out mirrors. The mirrors fitted were too wide for the body ( fitted by Autosleeper to cover wider body I guess, I changed them for standard Peugeot Van mirrors at some expense I might add, saved quite a bit on width with adaquate rear views. Ok the Nuevo will never be a Hymer match for quality but the country lanes are now a joy. Parking in Supermarket carparks much easier. Had to get rid of a lot of kit as the Nuevo has a lot less in the way of lockers but the pay load is good. Bonus is better cooker with electric hotplate also 240 volt water and space heating. Plenty of room for dogs. I have done a lot of mods and spent a bit on those extras we all need and we're reasonably happy-- do miss the hymer beds however.

[Brock]

You have me thinking of downsizing now! Flicking through some old MMMs at Andy Stothert articles and those by the Jagos show just how much fun you can have in a 'tin can'.

 

From what I know, most coachbuilts are similar in width to A-classes.

 

If it is manoeuvring the van that is the problem. consider a motorhoming course with one of the clubs or a session of so with a local PSV driver trainer school. My confidence came from learning on a Caravan Club course how to manoeuvre a caravan.

 

I have a golden rule. I will not take the van down 'white roads' (as on maps - no satnav) unless I can see milk tankers, buses or the like venture down the road. I don't feel I'm missing out by following this rule.

 

All that said, you cannot get a 7m van in a 6m space no matter how good you are at driving.

[Shaun]

I'm about to take delivery of an Adria Twin, under a year old. It has to cope with two adults (and, I'm a six-footer) and two tall teenagers. Oh, and did I mention the Bichon Frise and the bullmastiff? Seriously, I've spent a full six months studying magazines and forums, to spend 30 grand on something which is built for two.

 

The main requirement was for the fixed bed - big and comfortable - with ample room underneath for both dogs. I hope to reject the argument that there won't then be room for personal effects, on the simple basis that we have no choice, which means we only take what will fit and within payload.

 

If this all sounds a bit drastic, it all boils down to what we're moving from - a tent. I camped a lot as a kid, tried it last summer as a 50 year old and hated most of it. All that lying on the floor and no noise insulation from inconsiderate, boozed-up, happy campers. I came home from that trip (having enjoyed certain aspects) determined to invest in a motorhome.

 

But, to justify the sort of money we're into, the 'van has to make trips to B&Q to carry sheets of plasterboard. I might need to occasionally pick up my kids from school. I might want to wander to the supermarket whilst the main car is unavailable. When we do go away in the 'van, I don't want to be stuck on a site for the duration, scared to venture anywhere due to the size of vehicle. I don't want to meet scary oncoming HGVs down country lanes, with only inches to spare.

 

Sure, we went to see some big motorhomes and loved the interior space - but hated the idea of such a monstrosity on the drive all year round. I hate driving at the best of times, so the thought of something that wide filled me with horror. Rightly or wrongly, I will also feel better protected in a panel van, and will also, rightly or wrongly, assume that it will be less prone to leaks - certainly as it gets older.

 

As for the sleeping arrangments, the idea is to take a tent for the kids, to supplement the Twin. If it's too cold to camp, then we'll just have to squash in somehow. The kids are getting to that age where they want to be with their mates anyway, so it would have been a false economy to buy a big C-class with overcab, then have to get rid of it once the kids were no longer interested. I don't want the hassle and financial loss of keep swapping, so we hope our choice will last for some time.

 

Downsizing? - I never upsized.

 

Shaun

 

[tonyishuk]

Rapido 709F or similar small Rapido ?

 

Rgds

[Mel B]

Having had a Rapido 709F for nearly 4 years (May 2003 to Feb 2007), it was 5.53m long and we really got to know it well and loved it to bits, having moved up to it from a Swift 590RS which was .... well, that's another story! For the first couple of years the Rapido was great, we only went away for a week at a time in the UK, then 2 weeks, usually abroad with better weather so living 'in' the van wasn't an issue. We had 2 little dogs initially again so that was fine, plus the odd pet rat or two (plus cage of course). Then we got another dog so that when our eldest dog popped it's clogs the other wouldn't be on his own, we then had 3 dogs, 2 smallish and one long-legged nut-case! Cross greyhound staffie, about the size of a slim labrador but with great big chuncky muscles and able to move about at lightening speed. We managed in the 709 for nearly another 2 years but finding homes for the dog beds and being able to move around in it without standing on a dog's paw became a chore.

 

As we were also starting to use the van for longer holidays and also go away in this country in the winter time it was not ideal. Having only a half dinette so that the passenger seat had to be constantly swivelled (not easy on the out-going Fiat as it caught on the built in door arm rest). We could use the fixed bed to lounge about on but space was certainly at a premium. We had also bought an inflatable canoe which we had to store under the bed and with all the other paraphanalia we'd collected we were running out of space. It came to a head when over the Christmas break 2006/07 we were on holiday at Southport and Blackpool. The weather was okay for most of the time but towards the end of the holiday, with the weather turning, we were going stir crazy. We made the decision there and then to start looking for another 'van and had a bit of a shuftie whilst we were travelling back home.

 

To cut a very long story short, in February 2007 we bought our current van, a Rimor at 7.14m!!! Much longer than we had intended, only wanting to go up to 6m. We had seriously considered getting an A class to keep the length down and have the advantage of a nice sprawling lounge, but were apprehensive about the width and how warm it would be sleeping in the drop-down bed next to all that single glazing, plus a few other concerns. We saw the Rimor and it had everything we wanted - twin dinette, massive fridge/freezer, proper cooker (4 rings!), loads of workspace, storage, separate shower, etc, etc. Longer than we wanted but the width was less restrictive for going down narrower roads and by heck have we been down some narrow ones! Once you go over a certain length the motorhome won't fit into the length of a normal parking bay anyway so length becomes a bit less important, after all you can usually find somewhere to hang your bottom over, but width then becomes the obstacle if you've got a wide van like and A class.

 

I'm waffling, I know ...

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that we found that the 709 was great for shortish holidays in the UK, and a bit longer holidays in Europe, but I think you really need something a bit bigger for a month or more. There are lots of Rapidos that are around the 6m length, and the quality of them is excellent; they are not usually the cheapest of vans, but at least you know the fixtures and fittings will not break at the slightest touch.

 

I still miss our little Rapido (sad b*gger ain't I!), but putting my sensible head on (yes, I DO have one, kept safely tucked away for special occasions) the Rimor is much more suited to the way we use a motorhome now and will probably serve us well for a good few years.

 

Think about how you will use the van, don't get too bogged down with the size as your main factor, it's more important to make sure you know exactly what you need, what you'd like and what you definitely don't want, then you stand a very good chance of being able to find something to match most if not all of your 'needs', a lot of your 'likes' and hopefully you wont get something you 'don't want'.

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

[Brian Kirby]

Just a final thought.  Our first van was a 6 metre low profile permanent bed coachbuilt (Burstner) that we reluctantly changed after 2 years because it's 2.3 metre width (plus long arm mirrors) wasn't comfortable down the minor roads we prefer to travel!  In this van we did one 10 week trip to Spain, one 11 week to Italy and one 7 week to France before deciding to sell it.  We had no problem with available interior space/accommodation on these trips.

The replacement is a Hobby Van which is 6.07 metres long, but only 2.07 metres wide.  This does the minor roads much more comfortably and is also a permanent bed low profile coach built.  It arrived in August last and to date we have done one 7 week trip around southern France.  As with the Burstner, the accommodation works fine for us our for well over a month at a stretch.  Our target duration is three months and I see no reason why 7 satisfactory weeks should not become 12.

However, we have neither dogs, rats, nor inflatable canoes, and have now decided to travel minus the hardly used bikes.

[RonB]

Brock

 

The point I was trying to make about mirrors is that on an A Class these are fitted to the widest pat of the body, whereas on a coachbuilt they are fitted to the narrowest part, the cab, which is invariably set in from the caravan body. This makes a lot of difference in use.

[Ranger]

Don't worry about the mirrors on the cab doors on narrower part of 'van, the arms are long enough to see back passed the body. I would suggest a strip of reflective tape on the front of them so folk don't walk into them, or bikes ride into them. Fold them in when on sight or you could stand up and crack your head when checking front tyre pressures.

[RonB]

David

 

I think that you have missed the point on coachbuilt mirrors. The thread is about sizes of vans, length and width. Nobody suggested that viewing was difficult on a coachbuilt due to its cab mounted windows. In fact it's a positive advantage - width wise.

[ike]

Thanks to all for your responses especially to those who have gone down the "downsizing" route for their experiences and to those who have suggested possible vehicles for our consideration. We have looked at the adria twin and also the Bravia which are possibilities. As has been said it could be easy to make an expensive mistake by choosing the wrong vehicle. We will continue with our research and of course any further suggestions are welcome.

Cheers ike

[Guest JudgeMental]

 

Myself and Mrs mental slept in a new EuraMobil "Quixta" for 4 hrs after our early morning crossing (as I had been up all the previous night) We were at the Belgian dealer having a warranty repair carried out on our van.

 

The quixta is a Fiat based van conversion along the lines of timberland and the like. In our opinion it was a step to far in compactness. The bed was across the back and was good - very comfortable. but space was just to tight and I could not imagine long holidays in such a tight space. many years ago it might of been a welcome step up from our beloved VW :-D