A-frame legalities

[Autoroller]

I am sometimes “flamed” on this when I reply with my point of view in other forums, but can I just detail, here, what I understand in relation to the legalities of towed cars behind a-frames?

 

Advantages/disadvantages/safety/operation/construction/practicalities/cost is a whole new book/s but I'm happy to add my penny's worth on those subjects too, if asked!

 

I know this subject has been discussed exhaustively and some do not want to see it again, ever, probably because they are towing cars with unbraked a-frames, or without red reflective triangles, or over their train weight limit etc. etc.

 

I offer this to prospective new a-framers (the more the better) for info only and that is why it is posted as an attempt to gather it all together in one place. I make no apology for posting it, take it or leave it. I welcome replies/comment/debate on the content (but not on my right to post), good or bad.

 

D f T have stated they regard a-frames are legal provided they meet the lighting and braking regulations applicable to trailers, which is what the car is treated as, when towed. Temporary and universal "dolly" a-frames can only be used to move a car to a place of safety or repair.

 

Therefore, they have given us a framework in which the concept is legal for car specific properly engineered and permanent modifications to turn cars into trailers but it is up to very tower to ensure that, in practice, their particular combination meets the trailer regulations each and every time they take to the road. This also applies to all other towers of caravans etc but as their trailers are not dual purpose like ours, it is much easier for them e.g. red triangles/towing vehicle registration are permanently affixed, auto reverse brakes, one axle etc.

 

Certain combinations meet these regulations and are therefore UK legal; others do not. It is incumbent on all of us that we do not give the authorities an excuse to legislate against towing cars on a-frames. In this country/commonwealth/USA most things are legal unless legislated against; in Napoleonic based law (most of the rest of the EU) the opposite applies i.e. every situation has to be specifically legislated for or its probably illegal!

 

Trailer regulations state that a trailer of less than 750KG GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT (GVW) or Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) (i.e. the specific maximum weight authorised of a trailer including its load), can be unbraked. Do NOT use the often quoted unladen (“kerb”) weight and do not forget to add the weight of the a-frame itself to the car’s MAM. Only “car” I know of under this MAM is the French Axiam.

 

However, if brakes ARE fitted to a trailer they must be continuously or semi-continuously operable (cable over-run, hydraulic, pneumatic). As all cars have brakes fitted it must be obvious (to Police, VOSA, anyone) that a-frames used to tow cars as trailers must be of the braked variety, irrespective of the MAM of the car. A braked a-frame pulls on the car’s brake pedal via a cable operated by over-run when the M/H brakes (similar to a caravan). The requirement of a 50% braking efficiency for a trailer has been shown by Car-a-Tow to be easily achievable with the overun system employed, even without using the car's servo. In any event, D f T have stated, no facilities exist to check this requirement! I know that when my set-up is properly adjusted I can feel the car assisting the braking effect of the combination considerably.

 

Some braked a-frame overun systems allow you to carefully reverse without pulling the car brakes on (you do not have momentum taking effect); others do not. NOTE the regulations DO NOT call for "auto reverse" brakes as fitted to caravans but the capability to reverse without manual intervention. They do not specify in what situation, how far or whether round corners. On surfaces with good friction (eg tarmac/concrete) I can reverse as far as I need to in a straightish line without the car's brakes engaging or the car's front wheels castoring (ie the rolling resistance is less than sideways resistance).

 

There is a debate whether the decceleration sensing electrically operated American “Brake Buddy” system meets the “semi-continuous” requirement. I personally do not see why it does not and it would allow people using un-braked a-frames to easily upgrade to a braked outfit but it is expensive.

 

Trailer regulations also state that red reflective triangles must be fitted to the rear and that the registration plate displayed is the same as the towing vehicle. I attach my triangles magnetically and also (not legally required) an “ON TOW” sign. The existing car lighting works from the MH without the need of a board (through cable) although some cars do need a board. The rear number plate is changed on the car each towed trip.

 

The train weight limit of your towing vehicle must not be exceeded. This is found on a plate in your cab engine bay or on the driver’s/passenger’s door pillar (sometimes altered/uprated here by the convertor and if so, this is the definitive one). It is the largest figure and if you take away the MAM of your MH from this figure then that is the MAM of the trailer (car) you can tow, e.g. in my case 4800KG minus 3400KG equals 1400KG so my Daihatsu Charade (kerbweight 740KG grossweight 1200KG) comes under but also check the towbar limit. Train weight is exactly that i.e. two (or possibly more, see the continentals!) weights rolled and towed in train, you are NOT "carrying" this figure, you are TOWING or rolling it i.e. it is NOT deadweight and should not be calculated as such! Trainweight does not affect the individual capacities of either the car or M/H, you may load both up to their individual VIN plated MAM's.

 

In other words, everything you have on other trailers/caravans should be replicated and is no more or less legal than they are when they take to the road with their fixed a-frames. There is no requirement for certificates of conformity, written “proof”, or anything else more than that is required or provided by caravan/trailer suppliers and manufacturers.

 

Other EU states should accept British combinations for temporary importation as long as our regulations are met. I have towed 1000's of miles for over 3 years in UK, France, Belgium, Holland and Germany with no problems at all from officialdom but with intense interest and enthusiasm from the public. Check with your insurer that they are ok with you pulling a car; I have it in writing from my insurer that I am covered. Go for it, so we become a body of people, practising an inherently safe and legal pastime, big enough not to be messed with >:-)!

 

 

[colin]

This has been discused several times before and your points have been listed by others, so for your first post you have decided to inflick this upon us once again!

As with most 'A framers' you have missed an important point, you should also inform the insurer of the towed vehicle as this will in most cases been modified.

[Autoroller]

I was told I was likely to be bullied on this forum by the old and the bold but water off a ducks back (lol). I SAID why I was "inflicking" (sic) this but you are obviously a trailer manufacturer lobbyist (perhaps a paid up member of the NTTA?) who maybe doesn't read too well? However you have made a very good point about insurance for the modified car and yes I have told my (other) insurer about that too but many thanks for the reminder to the newbies I am trying to help.

 

Regards.

[Mel B]

Stop it the pair of you! Please do not let this degenerate into the 'same old, same old' sniping and nit-picking. *-)

 

If you only want to squabble then go do it somewhere else and leave the teddies alone, I'm getting fed up of stitching their arms and legs back on! :-S

[colin]

Autoroller - 2008-03-03 9:05 PM

 

I SAID why I was "inflicking" (sic) this but you are obviously a trailer manufacturer lobbyist (perhaps a paid up member of the NTTA?) who maybe doesn't read too well?

Regards.

And I said your points had all been made before, and no I have no axe to grind A frame v Trailer, which would have been obvious if you read other threads.

[Autoroller]

"I know this subject has been discussed exhaustively and some do not want to see it again, ever, probably because they are towing cars with unbraked a-frames, or without red reflective triangles, or over their train weight limit etc. etc.

 

I offer this to prospective new a-framers (the more the better) for info only and that is why it is posted as an attempt to gather it all together in one place. I make no apology for posting it, take it or leave it. I welcome replies/comment/debate on the content (but not on my right to post), good or bad."

 

I would hope that it has been discussed before and yes I did read the old threads but doesn't anyone new ever come to this forum? Obviously sometimes as I have just come here. Or is it that no one has the right to contribute when the know it alls do not want anyone else to know?

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

I have no problem in general with your post, but I think the section dealing with Gross Train Weight contains an error. 

To the best of my knowledge, GTW is an actual load restriction imposed by the vehicle manufacturer, based upon its nominal ability to re-start on a hill.  I believe it is not the MAM of the motorhome and trailer that should be used in establishing GTW, but the actual laden masses of both.  This allows a lightly laden towing vehicle, for example, to tow a fully laden trailer, where the combined MAMs would exceed the GTW restriction, always providing both are within their respective MAMs, and the actual laden masses do not exceed the GTW limit.

I also feel that, despite you own experiences with A frames outside the UK, greater caution is needed when advising others to do so.  It is perfectly true that all EC countries are supposed to accept legally registered visiting vehicles from other countries, even where these do not comply with their own regulations.  It should be borne in mind that this applies to EC countries only, that accession states may have transitional arrangements that should be checked, and the Switzerland is not in the EC.  It should also be borne in mind that if you do meet the one awkward policeman who has decided your rig is illegal, he will stop you, he may impound the vehicle, and you will have to argue your case in whatever language he is using. 

Therefore, towing a vehicle on an A frame outside the UK, where such a device would be illegal for natives of the country visited, does carry risks, and these should be assessed and understood before taking off.  Otherwise, an excellent and informative post, despite the repetition on the topic.

[david lloyd]

Brian is correct in saying that it is a real possibility that you could be stopped when towing abroad - if only for the reason that the police (even if they were aware of the EU regulations allowing the 'temporary' importation of a vehicle/combination that is legal in this country) would wish to confirm that the vehicle(s) meet the legal requirements.

 

In this regard Car-A-Tow (I don't know about other manufacturers of this equipment) also provide a letter translated into various EU languages which gives the important information and can be handed to the police should you be stopped.

 

Like Autoroller, I have also had no problems reversing the car on an A-frame (and have siad so before on this forum) but it just takes practice and patience - much like reversing any other trailer - but I have never towed the car on the continent. However, a good friend did tow his often through france to overwinter in Spain where he was stopped on several occasions. He simply showed the aforementioned letters to the police who took the time to check certain things like the number plate of the towed vehicle and the red triangles before allowing them to continue on their journey.

 

One of the key issues in Autoroller's post is that it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure that his combination meets the legal requirements each and every time he tows - and that can be achieved in my opinion.

 

All that said I can see a time in the not-too-distant future when the EU will harmonise the law in relation to trailers and that EU Directive is likely to favour the rest of Europe rather than the UK. If that occurs then a definitive position will resolve the issue.

 

Regards, David

[Autoroller]

Brian Kirby - 2008-03-03 10:40 PM

I have no problem in general with your post, but I think the section dealing with Gross Train Weight contains an error. 

To the best of my knowledge, GTW is an actual load restriction imposed by the vehicle manufacturer, based upon its nominal ability to re-start on a hill.  I believe it is not the MAM of the motorhome and trailer that should be used in establishing GTW, but the actual laden masses of both.  This allows a lightly laden towing vehicle, for example, to tow a fully laden trailer, where the combined MAMs would exceed the GTW restriction, always providing both are within their respective MAMs, and the actual laden masses do not exceed the GTW limit.

I also feel that, despite you own experiences with A frames outside the UK, greater caution is needed when advising others to do so.  It is perfectly true that all EC countries are supposed to accept legally registered visiting vehicles from other countries, even where these do not comply with their own regulations.  It should be borne in mind that this applies to EC countries only, that accession states may have transitional arrangements that should be checked, and the Switzerland is not in the EC.  It should also be borne in mind that if you do meet the one awkward policeman who has decided your rig is illegal, he will stop you, he may impound the vehicle, and you will have to argue your case in whatever language he is using. 

Therefore, towing a vehicle on an A frame outside the UK, where such a device would be illegal for natives of the country visited, does carry risks, and these should be assessed and understood before taking off.  Otherwise, an excellent and informative post, despite the repetition on the topic.

Many thanks for a considered and informative (as always) post Brian.  Fully agree your comments re towing abroad but I can only reiterate I had no problems.  I had the translations from Towtal handy to wave at foreign plods and also the wife to drive the car if we were forced to uncouple (I would not have risked it solo or without another driver).  I have never heard of anyone having the toad impounded.  Not sure about GTW, surely the idea is to avoid dangerously unstable combinations and the tail wagging the dog?  A combination as you describe is outlawed when a car tows a caravan i.e. a 1 to 1 weight ratio is the maximum allowed but the Clubs recommend the caravan's MAM not exceeding 85% of the car's unladen weight?  If it is a legal road requirement and not a manufactuerer's limit would not VOSA checkers assume worst case scenario and go by the VIN plated MAMs without the "bother" of proving actual loadings at a weighbridge? 

Regards,

Noel. 

[Autoroller]

All that said I can see a time in the not-too-distant future when the EU will harmonise the law in relation to trailers and that EU Directive is likely to favour the rest of Europe rather than the UK. If that occurs then a definitive position will resolve the issue. Regards, David

Hi David,

Yep, I think that if Gordon gets his way and we sign up to the Treaty we will be under the heal of Napoleonic Law and most of our legal freedoms of being treated as innocent/legal until proved otherwise will be gone after all these centuries.  Something Hitler couldn't even manage!

Regards,

Noel.

[Brian Kirby]

Autoroller - 2008-03-04 6:22 PM Many thanks for a considered and informative (as always) post Brian.  Fully agree your comments re towing abroad but I can only reiterate I had no problems.  I had the translations from Towtal handy to wave at foreign plods and also the wife to drive the car if we were forced to uncouple (I would not have risked it solo or without another driver).  I have never heard of anyone having the toad impounded.  Not sure about GTW, surely the idea is to avoid dangerously unstable combinations and the tail wagging the dog?  A combination as you describe is outlawed when a car tows a caravan i.e. a 1 to 1 weight ratio is the maximum allowed but the Clubs recommend the caravan's MAM not exceeding 85% of the car's unladen weight?  If it is a legal road requirement and not a manufacturer's limit would not VOSA checkers assume worst case scenario and go by the VIN plated MAMs without the "bother" of proving actual loadings at a weighbridge? 

Regards,

Noel. 

On the question of GTW, my understanding is that this refers to the actual laden weights of the towed, and towing, vehicles.  Renault, in particular, regard the maximum trailer weight as "elastic" within the GTW limit.  It is thus possible to tow, for example, an unladen caravan whose MAM, if added to the MAM of the towcar would exceed the GTW, provided the sum of the actual laden weights of both car and van remains within the GTW.

In this context the 85% rule is not much help.  That rule merely states that, as a general rule, the actual laden weight (NB) of the caravan should not exceed 85% of the kerbweight of the tow car. However, the rule is purely advisory, and has no statutory status.  These comments relate only to GTW and the 85% rule however: driving licence, and other, restrictions must also be taken into account.

[davenewellhome]

Hasn't all this and more been discussed to dearth before and then all put in one place? here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4206&posts=15

 

D.

[Autoroller]

davenewell@home - 2008-03-05 6:26 AM Hasn't all this and more been discussed to dearth before and then all put in one place? here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4206&posts=15 D.

Actually your link to the FAQ's page is not a help as the links from there do not seem to be working!  They either do nothing or simply return one to the forums homepage!  In any event I was not asking a question by posting so was not putting anyone to any "effort" (sigh) in trying to answer a question yet again, if you can't be bothered to read, don't.  My reasons for returning to the subject were perfectly valid and explained and I do not need to justify them to anyone.

[Clive]

I do not believe that overrun brakes with a cable attached to the cars brake pedal when the cars braking is normally servo assisted stands any chance of achieving 50% retardation without the required forward thrust on the towing vehicle being excessive.

 

The rude awakening one gets when crawling slowly down a hill in a queue of traffic with the engine off when the remaining vaccum goes is a good demonstration. The pedal pressure required just to slow the vehicle is massive and can cause smasms in ones legs as you see the bumper in front getting progressively closer and closer.

 

Nothing wrong with A frames providing either the car does NOT have any braking assistance or if a powered braking system is employed for the towed car. A couple of systems exist for this and both are expensive.

C.

 

[Tony Jones]

More power to your elbow Noel. To me, towing a car behind a camper has always seemed to defeat the object of a MOTORcaravan.

 

BUT ... there are plenty of you who see it differently, and as long as the outfit is safe I don't see why you should be put off by a lot of red tape. I've seen loads of wrecked caravans by the roadside which have been blown over or otherwise become unstable, but haven't yet seen it happen to an A-frame outfit!

 

So I hope you, and those who share your desire to tow a car, eventually get a clear ruling that you're perfectly legal (within whatever regulations apply).

 

One of the things we're all about is freedom, so go for it. And why should anyone have a go at you for spelling out so clearly how you see it?

 

Tony

[Dave Newell]

Autoroller - 2008-03-05 11:18 AM

davenewell@home - 2008-03-05 6:26 AM Hasn't all this and more been discussed to dearth before and then all put in one place? here http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4206&posts=15 D.

Actually your link to the FAQ's page is not a help as the links from there do not seem to be working! They either do nothing or simply return one to the forums homepage! In any event I was not asking a question by posting so was not putting anyone to any "effort" (sigh) in trying to answer a question yet again, if you can't be bothered to read, don't. My reasons for returning to the subject were perfectly valid and explained and I do not need to justify them to anyone.

Well pardon me for simply pointing out that it has all been collected into one place. If the links don't work contact a mod, I didn't put them there I just said it was all there. As for you getting "flamed" why am I not surprised? You reopen a thorny subject then get rusde and stroppy when someone simply points out that its all been done before and collected into one place, which is what you claim to have done this for. As for you not needing to justify your reasons no-one asked you to.D.

[Autoroller]

Tony Jones - 2008-03-05 3:21 PM More power to your elbow Noel. To me, towing a car behind a camper has always seemed to defeat the object of a MOTORcaravan. BUT ... there are plenty of you who see it differently, and as long as the outfit is safe I don't see why you should be put off by a lot of red tape. I've seen loads of wrecked caravans by the roadside which have been blown over or otherwise become unstable, but haven't yet seen it happen to an A-frame outfit! So I hope you, and those who share your desire to tow a car, eventually get a clear ruling that you're perfectly legal (within whatever regulations apply). One of the things we're all about is freedom, so go for it. And why should anyone have a go at you for spelling out so clearly how you see it? Tony

Cheers Tony,

To me, its all about flexibility and where I'm going.  If I'm hopping from site to site day by day then the TOAD stays behind but if I'm staying in one spot for awhile and I've setup the satellite dish etc and settled in to explore an area; then the hassle of packing up each day to go off site and run the risk of someone nicking your pitch means the car comes too. All the benefits of caravanning and motorhoming as and when the fancy takes! We've never been offered a lift when walking into town by the many tuggers who have passed us in their cars! Looking forward to when our bus passes are nationwide in April, so if a location has good public transport will leave the car behind more often.

Regards,

Noel.

[olley]

Autoroller - 2008-03-03 8:25 PM

 

I know that when my set-up is properly adjusted I can feel the car assisting the braking effect of the combination considerably.

 

 

Hi no problem with what you say except the above, you obviously don't understand how an overun braking system works, the car has to impart part of its mass onto the towing vehicle to make the brakes work, without a working servo this must be considerable, and must increase your stopping distance. There is no way you can feel the car assisting your braking unless the brakes have stuck on.

 

Olley

[Mel B]

Okay, that's it! If the 'niggling and sniping' continues I shall come round personally and rip YOUR ruddy arms and legs off and I will NOT sew them back on again! Not to mention what I'll do to your stuffing!!!!!! 8-)

 

Now stop it the lot of you. If you have nothing sensible or constructive to say, then just shut up and let us for once have a 'pleasant' thread about A frames.:->

 

Now, anyone want to earn a sweetie for being a good boy? :-D

[Miami]

olley - 2008-03-05 8:05 PM

Autoroller - 2008-03-03 8:25 PM I know that when my set-up is properly adjusted I can feel the car assisting the braking effect of the combination considerably.

Hi no problem with what you say except the above, you obviously don't understand how an overun braking system works, the car has to impart part of its mass onto the towing vehicle to make the brakes work, without a working servo this must be considerable, and must increase your stopping distance. There is no way you can feel the car assisting your braking unless the brakes have stuck on. Olley

You are absolutely right. Towing a car definitely increases you stopping distance, at least it does with us. Have to drive very carefully to allow for it eventhough the buddy works well.

We have now decided to give up towing our car so if anyone wants a tow car with 'A' frame and brakebuddy send me a P.M.

Also thinking about going back to caravanning. Fed up not being able to park anywhere.

[Autoroller]

olley - 2008-03-05 8:05 PM

Autoroller - 2008-03-03 8:25 PM I know that when my set-up is properly adjusted I can feel the car assisting the braking effect of the combination considerably.

Hi no problem with what you say except the above, you obviously don't understand how an overun braking system works, the car has to impart part of its mass onto the towing vehicle to make the brakes work, without a working servo this must be considerable, and must increase your stopping distance. There is no way you can feel the car assisting your braking unless the brakes have stuck on. Olley

Blimey Olley, I've already grovelled in the other place on this, to wit:-

Hi Olley,

Perhaps not a strictly accurate choice of words. What I can feel is that the car is not trying to push the M/H when braking so I know that the car is contributing to the whole braking effect of the combination, if that is not the idea, why put brakes on any trailer/caravan?

Noel.

As an ex tugger of many years standing I think I do understand the mechanics of the over-run system, just a less than precise choice of words to others who do! I forgot to edit here when posting (have done elsewhere) and when I remembered, was not allowed under the 30 mins rule, sorry!

Noel./>

[olley]

Hi noel sorry never saw the grovel on the other forum. :-D Still don't agree with your statement:

 

"What I can feel is that the car is not trying to push the M/H when braking"

 

For the overrun to work it must push against the motorhome, therefore increasing its stopping distance, as I personally doubt the 50% braking effect figure without a servo, that must be considerable and increase the stopping distance, especially on a motorhome of around 3.5ton towing a 1ton car.

 

I have often wondered how towacar proved it was in the 50% rule? Did they do emergency braking without, and then with the "A" frame, and measure the stopping distances? Or is this just guesswork on their part.

 

Olley

[olley]

sorry double post

[Autoroller]

olley - 2008-03-06 6:46 PM Hi noel sorry never saw the grovel on the other forum. :-D Still don't agree with your statement: "What I can feel is that the car is not trying to push the M/H when braking" For the overrun to work it must push against the motorhome, therefore increasing its stopping distance, as I personally doubt the 50% braking effect figure without a servo, that must be considerable and increase the stopping distance, especially on a motorhome of around 3.5ton towing a 1ton car. I have often wondered how towacar proved it was in the 50% rule? Did they do emergency braking without, and then with the "A" frame, and measure the stopping distances? Or is this just guesswork on their part. Olley

Weeell yes, it must push for the car's/trailer brakes to operate and ultimately towing anything will increase the combination's overall stopping distance compared to the M/H's solo performance but you can feel the effect once the car's brakes apply and the car does not continue to push as hard.

Noel.

[olley]

Autoroller - 2008-03-06 7:06 PM but you can feel the effect once the car's brakes apply and the car does not continue to push as hard.

Noel.

Hi Noel I think you have said it, "to push as hard" under normal braking you just press the pedal a bit harder, but its the emegency situation that worries me, were every inch counts.I intend to use an "A" frame when we change the car, and to make sure the brakes do work I have a 12v vacuum pump sitting in the garage, not cheap at £250 but worth it for the peace of mind.Olley