A-frame legalities

[enodreven]

Hi,Olley

 

I have been thinking about your consern over the stopping distances and must agree that it is very concerning, but don't you have a similar situation when you load the motorhome arn't the stopping distances constantly changing dependant upon how much you are carrying or even if you have a braked caravan/tariler etc. I have never towed anything but i would think you have to make allowances for any increase in the overall stopping disatnces within your driving technic as i am sure you already do.

 

There has been a lot of debate over the use of "A" frames and generally they denigrate into arguments between those that use them and those that don't, it would seem if you just look at the practical issues between an "A" frame and a Trailer and leave the legal issue aside for the moment there would be a number of points that you should consider

 

[1] Storage of either device [trailer/"A" frame]

 

On campsites when travelling

 

When you have finished travelling

 

[2] The handling/manoeuvre of either

 

When and If you need to Reverse

 

When you need to attach the car either onto or off or hook-up

 

When you need to connect to your tow bar

 

When you need to move either without the towing vehicle attached

 

[3] The full cost of either

 

The actual cost of the item Trailer or "A" Frame including fitting

 

The resale value

 

Taking into account any damage to the vehicle by using the above

 

Taking into account the mileage the item will have travelled

 

Taking into account the wear and tear

 

If in using either choice and in doing this means you need to have items drilled into parts of the car you may need to take this into account when trying to resell the vehicle at the least point it out to the prespective purchaser as it could affect the resale value and possible the safety of the vehicle

 

If the wheels have been turning and the mileage has not been recorded on the speedometer you need to check to establish if you should declare this fact as again it could affect the resale value

 

 

I hope that helps I am sure there are other practical items that need to be taken into consideration but for my own situation I am quiet clear that if I did want tow a car with me then it would have to be an "A" frame as I really don't have anywhere to store a trailer when I return and I don't think I would like to have to manhandle it when the space on a campsite is tight or that I want to possible pay extra for the room the trailer would take up.

 

There is a legal issue but it does appear that a lot of people are using them without any major problems,

 

The only other point that I would say is that I would only use one when I have another driver with me just in case I need to reverse

 

You will need to make yourself aware of the legal issue and satisfy yourself as to whether you feel the benifits outway the possible legal implecations

 

[david lloyd]

Hi everyone

 

Olley is right in saying that towing the car will increase the stopping distance but, as enodreven points out, this happens routinely with the addition of more weight inside the vehicle too.

 

Miami, last year we also started to think seriously about changing back to a car/caravan much for the added space and comfort on site and because (due to failing joints) we found we were having to tow the car more often -it just seemed logical that we change.

 

Having done so, we face the exact same issue of braking distance though i.e. we drive the Kia Sorento solo much of the time but when you hang a 1500kg caravan behind it with overrun brakes then it does increase the stopping distance. I don't regard this as a serious issue (only becomes so if you don't expect it to happen!) and make the necessary compensations when driving.

 

Regards, David

[olley]

Hi enodreven, phew quite a few points there. (lol) I will try to keep my reply simple, like me.

 

You are right, any increase in weight has the potential to increase your stopping distance, and will do in an emergency braking situation, and I have to confess I load my van without giving that the slightest thought.

 

The dry shipping weight was about 7.25tons, at a recent weighbridge it has risen to 8.75, so I must have increased my stopping distance.

Towing a 1ton car without a working servo must only make this worse, hence the vacuum pump, although I think the percentage increase in braking distance on my RV would be far less than on a much lighter Euro van.

 

I have never had any problems with storage of my trailer on or off site, and don't anticipate any with an "A" frame

The same applies to reversing/connecting its more labourious with a trailer, and I can reverse easily, but the speed I can connect/unconnect the "A" frame easily makes up for this.

 

The trailer cost about £1200 an "A" frame and pump will cost a similar amount, compare that to what we spend buying our motorhomes and toys to go with it, and its small beer.

 

Resale value is not a big deal for us as we tend to keep vehicles for years before changing. I bought my Galaxy 8 years ago, and the micra we tow 5.

 

I believe that with the addition of the vacuum pump I will be legal, others undoubtedly will think different, but as long as I ensure my insurance is not invalidated in anyway, by making them aware of what I am doing, then other road users will not not be put at any financial risk in the event of an accident.

 

olley

 

 

[Miami]

David

Have sent you a P.M.

John (Miami)

[Tomo3090]

If the whole kit and kiboodle is over a certain weight, don't you need a class 1 HGV licence to tow trailers anyway? Not bothered myself but thought I might be able to drop a spanner in the works! :-D

[olley]

Hi tomo if the motorhome/RV is over 7.5tons MAM then the max. MAM of the trailer is 750kg, over that and its as you say a HGV 1 now called a C+E

 

For motorhomes/RV's under 7.5tons MAM, its a combination of trailer MAM and towing vehicle MAM which together must not exceed 8.25tons

 

Olley

[Brian Kirby]

david lloyd - 2008-03-07 10:53 AM ..........Having done so, we face the exact same issue of braking distance though i.e. we drive the Kia Sorento solo much of the time but when you hang a 1500kg caravan behind it with overrun brakes then it does increase the stopping distance. I don't regard this as a serious issue (only becomes so if you don't expect it to happen!) and make the necessary compensations when driving. Regards, David

David

Off topic for motorhomes, but are you quite sure your caravan brakes are correctly set up?  You'll get a "nudge" in the rear when you first apply the brakes but, as soon as the overrun brake starts working, that should fall away, to the point at which it can almost feel as though the 'van is checking the car.  Correctly adjusted, the impact on stopping distance should be fairly minimal, although there will be some inevitable effect due to the need to keep the overrun brakes loaded. 

It is a little like the effect of added weight in a 'van.  Given the same tyres in good condition etc, and the same road/weather conditions, added weight (within the designed limits of the vehicle) should not, of itself, have a great effect on stopping distances.  The greater moving weight takes more energy to slow or stop, but it also increases the load on the tyres, and thereby the friction developed by them.  To a great extent, therefore, the effect of load on braking distances is self cancelling, although not totally eliminated.

[Autoroller]

Hi all,

For those needing to attach red reflective trailer triangles to cars.  My previous method of supergluing magnets to the available plastic version works reasonably well but tend to slip and scratch the paintwork. This supplier will make you some out of magnetic material same as the "On Tow" signs and set up a "Buynow" on E-bay if you send him "a question". 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350029295286&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=022

[david lloyd]

Brian Kirby - 2008-03-08 12:32 AM

david lloyd - 2008-03-07 10:53 AM ..........Having done so, we face the exact same issue of braking distance though i.e. we drive the Kia Sorento solo much of the time but when you hang a 1500kg caravan behind it with overrun brakes then it does increase the stopping distance. I don't regard this as a serious issue (only becomes so if you don't expect it to happen!) and make the necessary compensations when driving. Regards, David

David

Off topic for motorhomes, but are you quite sure your caravan brakes are correctly set up?  You'll get a "nudge" in the rear when you first apply the brakes but, as soon as the overrun brake starts working, that should fall away, to the point at which it can almost feel as though the 'van is checking the car.  Correctly adjusted, the impact on stopping distance should be fairly minimal, although there will be some inevitable effect due to the need to keep the overrun brakes loaded. 

It is a little like the effect of added weight in a 'van.  Given the same tyres in good condition etc, and the same road/weather conditions, added weight (within the designed limits of the vehicle) should not, of itself, have a great effect on stopping distances.  The greater moving weight takes more energy to slow or stop, but it also increases the load on the tyres, and thereby the friction developed by them.  To a great extent, therefore, the effect of load on braking distances is self cancelling, although not totally eliminated.

Hi BrianThanks for the explanation.Sorry, I didn't mean it to come over as if the increased stopping distance were by a large margin - merely that the same principle applies towing the caravan as towing the car using the same typw of braking system.In fact, the Yaris was always pretty good to tow and, in practice, the braking distance was marginal but then I'm no racing driver when it comes to travelling when towing either!Regards, David

[Mel E]

olley - 2008-03-07 7:27 PM

 

Hi tomo if the motorhome/RV is over 7.5tons MAM then the max. MAM of the trailer is 750kg, over that and its as you say a HGV 1 now called a C+E

 

For motorhomes/RV's under 7.5tons MAM, its a combination of trailer MAM and towing vehicle MAM which together must not exceed 8.25tons

 

Olley

 

Olley,

 

Just to clarify your answer - which is correct as far as it goes - the full definition is as follows:

 

C1 Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg

 

C1+E Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)

 

You will see that the restricted total of 8250 only applies if you passed your Category B test prior to 01.01.1997. You can lift the restriction back up to the fill 12,000 Kgs by re-taking the C1+E test.

 

Mel E

====

[Mel E]

A Frames have been done to death, so I'll skip past the basic legalities to make two points:

 

1. Brian is correct in saying that it is the ACTUAL weights of tow vehicle and trailer that must together not exceed the tow veicle Max Train Weight. MAMs do not enter into the calculation, except that neither tow vehicle nor trailer may individually be loaded to exceed its own MAM.

 

2. It is often stated (and has been in this thread) that if a vehicle is legal in the UK, then it may be temporarily taken to another EU State, even though it is illegal there. THIS IS QUITE WRONG!. For example, when 44 tonne trucks were illegal in the UK but legal in much of the rest of the EU, they could not be temporarily imported and driven in the UK. The requirement to wear high vis jackets is a legal requirement in Spain with which we comply, but not necessary in the UK. The same applies to carrying 2 warning triangles when in Spain. I have spoken to the DforT Technical Department about this and they claim that the temporary importation rule was originally included in EU legislation purely to stop countries refusing to admit new vehicles for sale on minor technical grounds (e.g., the lights were not suitably embossed as required by local law). This does not apply across the board, however. So you can be legally stopped and fined for A-Frame towing in another EU state because their law is different from ours - or, for example, for displaying the wrong form of 'Long Vehcile' sign as another example.

 

Nice of you to point out the difference in Napoleonic Law, though, which must have come from the articles I wrote in MMM - ever the source of accurate information.

 

Finally, by looking at past threads, you will discover one from a policeman who has stopped and taken to court people towing with UNBRAKED A-Frames. All cases so far have resulted in Guilty verdicts/ pleas. So the law does act upon unbraked A-Frame towing.

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Mel E - 2008-03-09 1:09 PM

1. Brian is correct in saying that it is the ACTUAL weights of tow vehicle and trailer that must together not exceed the tow veicle Max Train Weight. MAMs do not enter into the calculation, except that neither tow vehicle nor trailer may individually be loaded to exceed its own MAM.

 

Mel E

====

 

I disagree MAM's do come into it, My RV weighs over 7.5 tons so the maximum MAM of any trailer cannot be over 750kg unless I have a C+E licence. My maximum train weight is well over this figure.

 

The same thing applies to RV's that have a MAM of just under 7.5tons they cannot tow a trailer with a MAM that puts them over 8.25tons unless they hold the correct licence, once again this very unlikely to be anywhere near their max. train weight.

 

This from the DVLA regarding a B licence:

Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle

 

Train weights aren't even mentioned even though as you say they are important.

 

Olley

[Mel E]

Olley,

 

My quotes for C1 and C1E came direct from the DVLA web site. A couple of points therefore:

 

1. The information you (and I) are quoting refers ONLY to Driver Licensing. The information on Train Weights and loading is from totally separate legislation (Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations 1986, as frequently amended).This legislation states that:

 

(a) under no circumstances may you exceed the posted Maximum Train Weight.

 

(b) in calculating the ACTUAL Train Weight it is the ACTUAL weight of the towing vehicle and of the trailer which count and NOT their GVW or MAM as it is now called.

 

2. The Driver Licensing Regulations (as I quoted them) makes clear that C1E permits a combination of MAMs up to 12000Kgs MAM, as it always has. Since 1997, a separate restriction has applied to those with pre-1997 licences and thus inheriting grandfather rights to C1 and C1E without ever having been tested at this level, which is that the combination may not exceed 8250Kgs MAM. This restriction does not apply to those qualifying for a B Licence after 01.01.1997 since they do not acquire grandfather rights and must take an extra test for C1 and C1E. It is open to pre-1997 licence holders to upgrade to full C1E if they wish to take the appropriate test.

 

Hope that clarifies the issue.

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Mel E - 2008-03-09 4:38 PM

 

Olley,

 

(b) in calculating the ACTUAL Train Weight it is the ACTUAL weight of the towing vehicle and of the trailer which count and NOT their GVW or MAM as it is now called.

 

 

Mel E

====

 

Hi Mel this is how I understood it, however on a recent thread on MHF it was said that this is incorrect, and if stopped they will go by the MAM of both the towing vehicle and trailer to decide if you have exceeded your train weight.

 

This from the DVLA site: Train weight is the combined MAM of the vehicle and the trailer it is pulling.

 

Olley

[Mel E]

Olley,

 

I have come across this error on the DVLA site before. It is an error. What I have quoted is what the relevant legislation says. I have confirmed this with the DforT. So the other forum site is also wrong.

 

It just goes to show what a minefield this legislation is.

 

Mel E

====

[olley]

Hi Mel E, makes you wonder, what else have the DVLA got wrong? driving licenses for over 7.5ton RV's maybe. :-D

 

Olley

[Guest Le Thou]

Whilst this topic is running I thought I might add something I previously read in relation to towing Smarts on a frame. I used to use a trailer but for various reason have gone onto the braked A Frame, the point is that on a test run at weekend behind my Renault I noticed that the Smart had actually recorded the "towed" mileage which I am sure I have read previously that because it is being towed it doesn't record the mileage............... (?)

[Miami]

Our Smart did not record the mileage when we had one. They have electronic speedos.